[4e] Sword and Board and TWF

[LibraryOgre]

Given 4e's rules on TWF-for-non-rangers (i.e. "If you have the feat and wield two weapons, you get a +1 to damage"), would it be reasonable for sword-and-board types to grab TWF and claim the benefits? Would you necessarily NEED TWD in order to maintain your shield bonus?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure if I follow you - a S&B character doesn't appear to be wielding two weapons, and thus wouldn't get the +1.

Regardless, +1 to AC isn't worth a feat. There's simply too many better feats to go around these days.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not sure if I follow you - a S&B character doesn't appear to be wielding two weapons, and thus wouldn't get the +1.

The shield, in this case, would be counting as the second weapon.

[Yakk]

Mark Hall is claiming that the offhand weapon is an improvised weapon, and thus qualifies as an offhand weapon.

I'd consider using your shield as an improvised weapon is not the same way you'd wield it as a shield. Your hand is occupied using it as a shield while it is a shield, and it takes a minor action to 'ready' your shield (if, for example, you have a light shield and your offhand is holding a glow rod) by the rules I recall.

So you could hold your light shield as an improvised weapon (which means it isn't acting as a shield) and use two weapon fighting to get +1 to damage with your main hand. Then you could get two weapon defence, and use your shield as an improvised weapon... and get back the shield bonus.

[Kurald Galain]

Mark Hall is claiming that the offhand weapon is an improvised weapon, and thus qualifies as an offhand weapon.

Hm, I suppose that's technically true. It's also obviously not the intent of the feat. By that same logic, having an unarmed attack available (such as a kick) might be argued to construe "wielding a weapon", since unarmed attacks are technically weapons in 4E.

Regardless, it's a dubious interpretation, and there's less dubious ways to get much bigger bonuses, so I fail to see the point of this one (and would disallow it personally on grounds of it being silly). It's a bit like robbing a bank to steal two dollars.

[Hzurr]

Mark Hall is claiming that the offhand weapon is an improvised weapon, and thus qualifies as an offhand weapon.

I'd consider using your shield as an improvised weapon is not the same way you'd wield it as a shield. Your hand is occupied using it as a shield while it is a shield, and it takes a minor action to 'ready' your shield (if, for example, you have a light shield and your offhand is holding a glow rod) by the rules I recall.

So you could hold your light shield as an improvised weapon (which means it isn't acting as a shield) and use two weapon fighting to get +1 to damage with your main hand. Then you could get two weapon defence, and use your shield as an improvised weapon... and get back the shield bonus.

Hmm...it seems that if this came up in play, it would be pretty silly.

"Ok, as a minor action, I set my shield as an improvised weapon. I attack as my standard action, with a +1 to damage since I have two weapons! As a minor action, I set my shield back to a normal shield"

[Mando Knight]

Readying a shield is a standard action, though. Giving up a standard action for a +1 to damage is rather... stupid.

Now, by RAW, you can grab a Spiked Shield, but that's two feats for +1 damage... also a stupid idea. Given that it's roughly the same as grabbing a Short Sword and the TWF/TWD feats (with 1 lower proficiency), it's not that great a deal.

[AgentPaper]

Honestly, TWF should just be something like this:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: When wielding two melee weapons,
you gain a +1 per tier feat bonus to damage and a
+1 shield bonus to your AC and Reflex defenses.

[cupkeyk]

Readying a shield is a standard action, though. Giving up a standard action for a +1 to damage is rather... stupid.

Now, by RAW, you can grab a Spiked Shield, but that's two feats for +1 damage... also a stupid idea. Given that it's roughly the same as grabbing a Short Sword and the TWF/TWD feats (with 1 lower proficiency), it's not that great a deal.

I immediately assumed that the off hand weapon was a spiked shield. I am pretty sure a tempest fighter with a sword and a spiked shield nets the shield bonus, the tempest bonus as well as the two-weapon defence bonus, without spending any feats. If he picks a short sword he also gets the bonus to ab and damage.

[Mando Knight]

I am pretty sure a tempest fighter with a sword and a spiked shield nets the shield bonus, the tempest bonus as well as the two-weapon defence bonus, without spending any feats.

Two-Weapon Defense is a shield bonus. Shield bonuses don't stack.

However, what Spiked Shield does let you do is use shield-based abilities while gaining benefits from TWF type attacks.

[GenPol]

I suppose you could, but it's probably not worth the feat.

I'll leave now, because I don't really have anything original to add.

[Kurald Galain]

Honestly, TWF should just be something like this:

Two-Weapon Strike (paragon feat)
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Benefit: Whenever you miss with an at-will melee attack with your main weapon that does not normally benefit from wielding a second weapon, you may reroll that attack using your off-hand weapon instead.

Two-Weapon Defense (paragon feat)
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Benefit: Whenever you take the full defense action, you may use an immediate interrupt to cause one melee or ranged attack that hits you to miss you instead.

Two-Weapon Flurry (level-6 utility power)
Move action, encounter, melee, weapon.
Prerequisite: You must be trained in athletics
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons, must have attacked with your main weapon this turn, and must not have used your off-hand weapon this turn.
Effect: Make a basic attack with your off-hand weapon.

[Mando Knight]

Honestly, TWF should just be something like this:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: When wielding two melee weapons,
you gain a +1 per tier feat bonus to damage and a
+1 shield bonus to your AC and Reflex defenses.

Honestly? Tempest Fighters and TWF Rangers are already powerful. You don't need to cut down on the number of feats they look at...