Bewildered about Psionics

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This topic has aspects of all editions, but I'm looking at it mostly from a 4e perspective because it's the edition I like the best, and because psionics are about to make their debut in the Player's Handbook 3.

One thing that keeps popping up in D&D that has always bugged me is psionics. As far as I've seen, psionics have been praised as one of the best things in 3.5. I personally am not sure of this, but I have no knowledge of game balance or mechanics, so what do I know?

What bugs me about psionics is the flavor. It isn't that I hate them, really. I struggle to comprehend them in the traditional D&D universe. Maybe it's because my first encounter with psionic powers was the evil gym leader Sabrina in the Pokemon TV show, but I've always viewed psionics as more "science fiction" than "fantasy," as a way to justify magic-like effects in a more futuristic setting. On the flipside, I imagine psionics would basically seem like magic in a medieval Europe based setting, so why differentiate between the two?

Soon psionics will finally arrive in 4e, with four new classes: the Ardent (defender), Battlemind (leader), Psion (controller), and Monk (striker). Again, I'm not upset about this so much as confused, since I have no idea how to look at psionics. I think part of the reason why this is the case is because most of the D&D classes (at least in 4e) are based off common fantasy archetypes that you see everywhere in fantasy literature, games and cinema. You can say "rogue," "mage," or "paladin," and most people will probably know what you're talking about. Say "ardent" or "battlemind," and you'll probably only be understood by people who played psionic characters in 3.5 D&D.

To re-emphasize, I don't think psionics are necessarily a bad thing. I'm just not sure what to make of them. Perhaps someone who has more insight into this may be able to help me understand, but it seems to me like psionics are more sci-fi, and thus don't mesh with D&D too well. Plus I'm not sure why they decided to make the monk psionic. Again, slapping the word "psionic" on something makes it seem like sci-fi, and the monk class is supposed to be reminiscent of eastern mysticism and wuxia movies, rather than sci-fi.

Anyone wanna offer some insight into this?

[lsfreak]

Cross out 'psionics' and write 'arcane magic.' There, nothing has changed and it fits in perfectly. (In fact, I much much prefer psionics to the standard Vancian of 3.5, both power and mechanics-wise, and I know I'm far form the only one).

The biggest problem with psionics that many people don't like is the New Age-ish crystal stuff. Fluff that away (remove entirely, or turn into more fantasy-thematic 'gemstones'), and you have magic that's just the same as any other power source.

[Boci]

You should see if you can pick up a Dark Sun novel. That might help you imagine a psionic character in a fantasy setting.

[Kurald Galain]

Casters in earlier editions used vancian memorization, which is simply not how magic works in most fantasy novels (except those by Jack Vance, natch) nor how it works in most computer games (which tend to use spell points). Psionics was the answer to both, except for the silly bits about ectoplasm and sentient crystals.

Now that 4E no longer has vancian memorization anyway, psionics have no real reason for existing any more, other than "we've always had them". Of course, neither do sorcerers, and that hasn't stopped them. Essentially, a psion is simply another Standard Fantasy Wizard with slightly different powers.

[Eldan]

Honestly, if it helps you, you can basically rename psionics to "mind magic", "mentalism", "Mysticism", "The Path of Zuoken", "The Discipline" or a other things.

What do psionicists do? They concentrate their minds to achieve effects. For this, they meditate and focus. And really, some of that fits quite well with eastern monks: they are, after, reported to do things like hover or be in two places at once, mostly due to their enlightenment, meditation and mental discipline.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Honestly, if it helps you, you can basically rename psionics to "mind magic", "mentalism", "Mysticism", "The Path of Zuoken", "The Discipline" or a other things.

What do psionicists do? They concentrate their minds to achieve effects. For this, they meditate and focus. And really, some of that fits quite well with eastern monks: they are, after, reported to do things like hover or be in two places at once, mostly due to their enlightenment, meditation and mental discipline.

Okay, so maybe the monk works better as a psionic class than I originally thought, but still, I've never really seen an archetype like this outside of D&D.

[sonofzeal]

Okay, so maybe the monk works better as a psionic class than I originally thought, but still, I've never really seen an archetype like this outside of D&D.

I've seen it in a few places, though you're right that it's rare.

If I may ask a question - how do you feel about Mindflayers?

[Draz74]

the Ardent (defender), Battlemind (leader), Psion (controller),

Strike that; reverse it.

The PHB3 is rumored to have some cool new fluff about how psionics are the Material Plane's adaptive way of defending itself against the encroachment of the Far Realms and their madness and aberrations.

But you're right that most settings don't really have both arcane magic and psionics as compatible pieces of their magic fluff.

Though, if you think about it, you might decide that some fantasy's magic fits better as "psionics" than as "arcane." Many non-D&D settings don't have magic controlled by some weird keywords in ancient languages, symbolic material components formed of dead critters, and gestures and chants and so on. The ones that do, usually portray magic as a sort of witchcraft -- which fits fine with the Warlock, but not so much with the Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard/Swordmage/Artificer. Meanwhile, magic-users who call out supernatural energies "by the force of their will" or "the power of their mind" or whatever are much more common. See the Belgariad or the Eragon series, for example. These settings arguably are more fluff-friendly to psionics than to arcane magic.

EDIT: the above is pretty much the biggest reason I'm not much of a fan of 4e Wizards, but on the other hand I'm pretty excited about the Psion.

[Mando Knight]

Cross out 'psionics' and write 'arcane magic.' There, nothing has changed and it fits in perfectly. (In fact, I much much prefer psionics to the standard Vancian of 3.5, both power and mechanics-wise, and I know I'm far form the only one).

Actually, in 4e, just replace it with "Ki." Psionics is a "Western" sci-fi term for the power of using your mental state to act beyond your physical capabilities. Ki is a "Far East" term for pretty much the same thing.

The 4e Monk and Battlemind focus their Psionic power/Ki/whatever primarily inward to enhance their physical bodies. Psions exert their will on the world through focusing the same power on an external target. Ardents do a lot of the same kind of things as the others, but mostly focus on boosting their allies and hindering their enemies by affecting the targets' mental and emotional state.

[Prime32]

There was a famous thread on refluffing psionics years ago on WotC.

It spawned a similarly large thread where people statted Naruto characters using psionic classes - the rules could emulate the characters' powers and the way they interacted much better than arcane magic.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've seen it in a few places, though you're right that it's rare.

If I may ask a question - how do you feel about Mindflayers?

They've always felt somewhat off to me. Like they're foreign, and not in the sense that they're interlopers from the Far Realm. I don't think they have a similar archetype in traditional fantasy either.

[erikun]

Real-world connotations aside, the difference between Psionic and Magic in D&D has been an internal/external division. In D&D, Wizard make funny noises that sound like words, Bards make funny noises that sound like music, Clerics get direct channels to foreign intelligences called deities, Warlocks get direct channels to foreign intelligences not called deities. For the most part, all of the Arcane and Divine spellcasters use some form of outside influence to create mystical effects. Sorcerers and Invokers are exceptions to this rule in 4e, but it mostly holds.

Psionic classes use some form of internal meditation or discipline to create mystical effects. They either train their mind to use the same energies as magic, effective acting as wizards who can keep their mouths shut, or they train their body to becoming a source of power, somewhat like a cross between the 3.5e Sorcerer and the Monk. I'm usually confused over the bewilderment with psionics, as it is basically the same idea of eastern mysticism, western aesthetic monasteries, and incense-burning oracles. Dozens of "psychics" are found throughout myth and legends, so I'm not too surprised to see then in a fantasy game.

It also allows a different way to portray gaining mystical power. Wizard learn the powers of the universe, Clerics channel those powers, while Psions become those powers.

As for 4e Psionics, it looks like they're trying something new (Power Points). Personally, I like what I've seen, and think that it will likely feel somewhat different than Arcane classes in play.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Actually, in 4e, just replace it with "Ki." Psionics is a "Western" sci-fi term for the power of using your mental state to act beyond your physical capabilities. Ki is a "Far East" term for pretty much the same thing.

The 4e Monk and Battlemind focus their Psionic power/Ki/whatever primarily inward to enhance their physical bodies. Psions exert their will on the world through focusing the same power on an external target. Ardents do a lot of the same kind of things as the others, but mostly focus on boosting their allies and hindering their enemies by affecting the targets' mental and emotional state.

That's a good description of what they do, but again, are there examples of these things in traditional fantasy? If there are, where can I find them so I can eliminate this sense of "foreignness" that I get from psionics.

[SaintRidley]

They've always felt somewhat off to me. Like they're foreign, and not in the sense that they're interlopers from the Far Realm. I don't think they have a similar archetype in traditional fantasy either.

Probably because their more recent fluff - being from the future - fits much better with Spelljammer than generic D&D.

The fact that they're directly inspired by H.P. Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos, too.

[Prime32]

That's a good description of what they do, but again, are there examples of these things in traditional fantasy? If there are, where can I find them so I can eliminate this sense of "foreignness" that I get from psionics.

It's a subtle thing - a matter of how magic works in the story, or it is left unmentioned. That Naruto builds thread? They statted Rock Lee with psionics, the Badass Normal martial artist with no special powers. It's a powerful system.

There are no major mechanical differences between psionics and magic - there are small things like memorisation, but how many stories have you read (other than those of Jack Vance) where spellcasters must memorise their spells rather than drawing on a pool of mana? The only difference is the names.

[lsfreak]

I don't think they have a similar archetype in traditional fantasy either.

Well, in reality, most of what you except as 'traditional fantasy' has probably been warped by 40 years of D&D, and really has no place in pre-D&D fantasy.

The other thing is that a good chunk of D&D is far from typical fantasy. Take Eberron.

[Draz74]

If there are, where can I find them so I can eliminate this sense of "foreignness" that I get from psionics.

I gave you two examples above.

[erikun]

That's a good description of what they do, but again, are there examples of these things in traditional fantasy? If there are, where can I find them so I can eliminate this sense of "foreignness" that I get from psionics.

What, strictly, feels foreign? Is it the heavy crystal usage? The names of the powers? Using your mind to generate effects?

I (or someone) could probably direct you to appropriate fantasy works that would be less "foreign", but I honestly don't know what seems so strange to you. As I said earlier, psionics fits perfectly well with eastern mysticism and western oracles, in part because when the term "Mentalism" started becoming popular in was applied to these fields.

[Noble Savant]

Well, if you want some examples of "psionics" in traditional fantasy, it isn't really hard to find, to one degree or another.

In the Farseer trilogy, by Robin Hobb, both the Skill and the Wit have more in common with psionics then arcane magic.

Channelers in the Wheel of time, with all their flashy effects, and their strong basis in meditation and mental focus, have a great deal in common with Psionics as seen in 3.5. Think of the different "elements" as different disciplines, and you've pretty much got DnD psionics. They even have Wilders!

If I really worked at it, I could probably find a lot more examples, but these two should be more then enough.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

What, strictly, feels foreign? Using your mind to generate effects?

This. When I think of "using your mind to generate effects," I immediately think of bending spoons, cards with wierd symbols on them and turning people into dolls just because you can.

[sonofzeal]

They've always felt somewhat off to me. Like they're foreign, and not in the sense that they're interlopers from the Far Realm. I don't think they have a similar archetype in traditional fantasy either.

Minor quibble - Mindflayers were never associated with the Far Realms, as far as I know. LoM doesn't play them that way, at least.



Hmm... I can see that, too, but I think it's appropriate. Telepathic abominations of nature that invade and control minds are pretty archetypal, though the details vary. Telepathic monsters in general tread pretty close to Psi, and if you can accept one then the other shouldn't be a major issue.

In any case, the fluff of Psi has never really been its strong point. There's potentially a lot of overlap with ki/chi, and various eastern ideas of mental focus producing semi-supernatural effects, but they don't really play with that much. It's not so much dynamic and interesting as it is fundamental and generic (much like Wizards and Sorcerers, really, which are also pretty generic in 3.5). The strength is its crunch - more balanced, more flexible, less bookkeeping. It's up to the player to make it interesting and believable in the game world.... but then again, it always is.

[NeoVid]

That's a good description of what they do, but again, are there examples of these things in traditional fantasy? If there are, where can I find them so I can eliminate this sense of "foreignness" that I get from psionics.

I see D&D psychics as having more in common with mages from non-D&D settings than any D&D wizard does. Psionics mean you think hard and magic happens. D&D Arcane magic generally requires a small song-and-dance routine while throwing bat crap around.

[Starbuck_II]

This. When I think of "using your mind to generate effects," I immediately think of bending spoons, cards with wierd symbols on them and turning people into dolls just because you can.

That sounds more like arcane magic. telekinesis, symbol spell, and Polymorph any object in that order.

Really, reverse every thing you think about with arcane with psionics: it really fits better (and vice versa).

Gandalf fits better as a Psion archetype than a wizard (he doesn't carry a book for spells, doesn't have memorize them, just cast when he feels like).

[erikun]

This. When I think of "using your mind to generate effects," I immediately think of bending spoons, cards with wierd symbols on them and turning people into dolls just because you can.

I could list a bunch of titles, but honestly, it's more a point of view than anything expressly stated. Xanth has everyone possessing unique inate "powers" which they can use, Shannara has druids channeling their lifeforce into mystic fire, and Earthsea has spellcasters who control their magic completely through force of will. A Wizard of Earthsea is probably the best example of the three, as it features (if I recall) the main character magically holding a boat together for three days, nearly exahusting himself - something that doesn't make a bit of sense with spell slots and magic that maintains itself.

I will admit, my rationale is a bit tied to the older versions of D&D. Arcane casting was based on memorization, divine casting was based on prayer, and psionics were based on personal power. This changed a bit in 3rd edition, especially 3.5, which had the Sorcerer and several other spontaneous casters. A lot of the characters above could be considered Sorcerers just as well as Psions.

Then again, the whole "casting magic until exahusted" makes more sense with Psions than with Sorcerers. So do mages who cast one spell over and over as needed - something far more common in fantasy than "I've ran out of Fireballs, so I have to resort to my Force Missiles."

[ClockShock]

Try watching some kung-fu movies. Non-Sci-Fi Psionics.

[randomhero00]

I actually see psionics as far more widespread than just about anything else. See psychics, jedi, anything with telekinesis, warhammer 40k, etc. Psionics in D&D was just expanded upon to include more options like the wizard. Flavor wise though its pretty much the same and quite widespread in fiction. I love their fluff; psions are so bad@$$ they warp reality just by thinking it so.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That sounds more like arcane magic. telekinesis, symbol spell, and Polymorph any object in that order.

When I say cards with weird symbols, I'm talking about using psychic powers to figure out what the symbol is without looking at it. I'm referencing my first encounter with psionic-seeming abilities, namely in the episodes of the Pokemon anime featuring Sabrina, the psychic gym leader. In her gym, there were people attempting the spoon-bending and card-guessing things, and Sabrina liked to turn people into dolls if they lost to her in battle. And that's what I envision when I think of psionics. The minute someone says "psychic" anything, those episodes replay in my head. I've found it impossible to divorce my concept of "psychic" stuff from Pokemon.

[Prime32]

When I say cards with weird symbols, I'm talking about using psychic powers to figure out what the symbol is without looking at it. I'm referencing my first encounter with psionic-seeming abilities, namely in the episodes of the Pokemon anime featuring Sabrina, the psychic gym leader. In her gym, there were people attempting the spoon-bending and card-guessing things, and Sabrina liked to turn people into dolls if they lost to her in battle. And that's what I envision when I think of psionics. The minute someone says "psychic" anything, those episodes replay in my head. I've found it impossible to divorce my concept of "psychic" stuff from Pokemon.

Wizards can do all of those things. In fact, they can do them more easily than psions.

[Roderick_BR]

Wait, monk is psyonic now? In this case, you could just call it mind-power, ki, or whatever. People with with some sort of magic power that doesn't come from the gods, nor come from arcane formulas, but from inner power through special training.

[Noble Savant]

I've found it impossible to divorce my concept of "psychic" stuff from Pokemon.

That's my excuse for almost everything ever.

In any case, if the fluff bothers you that much, as it seems to bother most people. Just call it Mind Magic and be done with it. Personally, I like the whole crystal bit and the other pieces of fluff. Even Ectoplasm. I think it gives it a very otherworldly feel to the whole business, as if, through meditation, you have tapped into a universal source that other people can't even comprehend.