(Core only) An Experiment in Optimization: Mad Monty

[rockdeworld]

"Excuse me sir, but are you perhaps a user of the arcane art? If so, I would very much like to challenge you to a duel."

The robed caster turned to see who was speaking. Before him stood a strangely dressed man with a rapier at his waist.

"Unless you wish to be reduced to ash, I suggest you step away." He said. "One such as yourself would be helpless before my power."

"Try me." The man said with a grin, and drew his weapon.

One minute later, the caster was on his knees, eyes rolling up into his skull.

"How... how did none of my spells affect you?" He groaned.

The man smiled. "Magic doesn't bother me too much."


Mad Monty
There's not much that can be done with AC in core (especially without items), but I tried to think of how to optimize someone's touch AC so that even No-Save spells would fail to affect him. The result costs about 493,000gp (mostly from tomes), but it can be done. The challenge then was balancing that character's offense and defense. Here's what I came up with.

Race: Human

Abilities:
Str 10
Dex 14 + 3 Level + 5 Tome + 6 Item = 28 (+9)
Con 14
Int 14 + 4 Tome + 6 Item = 24 (+7)
Wis 13 + 2 Level + 5 Tome + 6 Item = 26 (+8)
Cha 8

Classes:
1 Monk - Improved Initiative, (Monk) Stunning Fist, (Human) Dodge
2 Monk
3 Cleric (Travel, Trickery) - Weapon Finesse
4 Cleric
5 Cleric
6 Cleric - Mobility
7 Cleric
8 Cleric
9 Duelist - Combat Expertise
10 Duelist
11 Duelist
12 Duelist - Improved Feint
13 Duelist
14 Duelist
15 Duelist - Any
16 Rogue
17 Rogue
18 Rogue - Any
19 Rogue
20 Rogue

Travel domain grants Fly, Trickery grants Bluff (and Invisibility). Improved Feint is for the rogue's sneak attack. A few more items can be added for a bit of customization.

Initiative: +15
Touch AC (normal): 35
Touch AC (fighting defensively): 47
Stunning Fist: +25, Fort DC 28
BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Normal Attack: +25/+20/+15/+10
Damage: 1d6 (weapon) + 3d6 (sneak attack) + 1d6 (precise strike) = 5d6

Saves:
Fort: 10 (class) + 2 (Con) = +12
Ref: 11 (class) + 9 (Dex) = +20 (note: and Evasion to boot)
Will: 10 (class) + 8 (Wis) = +18

~PEACH

[Starbuck_II]

Why the Monk?

[SpikeFightwicky]

NM, missed your level 1 feat... It looks like you're missing a feat at first level. Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus), WF: Unarmed Attack (Human Bonus), but no non bonus 1st level feat.

[Telonius]

Monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level 1. (That +1 BAB requirement is one thing I always, always waive as a houserule, but RAW? No. ).

[Totally Guy]

Monk doesn't qualify for Weapon Finesse at level 1. (That +1 BAB requirement is one thing I always, always waive as a houserule, but RAW? No. ).

My pet hate too.

Is there really no "unaffected by magic (of type x) for good or for ill" type feat or class feature?

[Mongoose87]

I don't see what's so special about this.

[Greenish]

1 Monk - (Human) Weapon Finesse: Unarmed Strike

9 Duelist - Weapon Finesse: Rapier

I've always been under the impression that you don't have to take Weapon Finesse for each weapon individually, but that once taken it applies to all the qualified weapons.

[Eldariel]

I've always been under the impression that you don't have to take Weapon Finesse for each weapon individually, but that once taken it applies to all the qualified weapons.

This is true. It was different for 3.0 though hence why lots of people (me included) often get confused.

[Boci]

Baleful polymorph, finger of death, glitter dust. High touch AC stops some spells, but there are plenty that that do not really on an attack roll, and some that do not allow a save either.
Also, quickened true strike.

[magic9mushroom]

Agree with Boci. Optimising touch AC is pointless for anti-casters unless you also optimise saves.

[Boci]

Agree with Boci. Optimising touch AC is pointless for anti-casters unless you also optimise saves.

And in core at level 20, you better hope the caster hasn't heard of the gate spell.

[IthilanorStPete]

It's not even that high of AC, either...

[Sinfire Titan]

Why the Monk?

Duelist...


Seriously.


1: Your saves are extremely low.
2; You are vulnerable to Summoned monsters.
3: Your method of dealing with Solid Fog/Black Tentacles/Summon Monster 3 is very limited in use (Freedom of Movement 1/day for 1 round/Cleric level, which is 6 for you).
4: You still lose to Time Stop novas.
5: Glitterdust [/thread]
6: Pyrotechnics [/thread]
7: Even considering your defenses, you're damage output is pathetic (5d6 at 20th level, with an attack bonus of +25). And your BAB is off (you should have a BAB of +15 at most, so no 4th attack unless you are able to Flurry with a Rapier).






This build is nigh worthless, even in an arena matchup (because any optimized Core build will ruin you in 2 rounds flat).

[magic9mushroom]

Also;

Maw of Chaos. Have fun dying.

[Melamoto]

The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

• Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL
• Use Exceptional and Infinite Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
• Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs

As far as I am aware, no caster trick can hurt you. You are immune to anything that allows SR, can deflect any ranged attack of any kind, and can dismiss any summoned goons the caster may pull out.

[Sinfire Titan]

The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

• Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL
• Use Exceptional and Infinite Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
• Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs

As far as I am aware, no caster trick can hurt you. You are immune to anything that allows SR, can deflect any ranged attack of any kind, and can dismiss any summoned goons the caster may pull out.

You seriously think that's the extent of a Caster's power? MDJ=Match. Seriously, even Epic magic items aren't immune to that spell. Oh, and you're talking about custom magic items too, which (if allowed) the caster will have 5 levels before you will.

[magic9mushroom]

The perfect anti-caster can only be achieved at level 21. By that point you can:

• Get an item which gives literally unbeatable Spell Resistance without destroying your WBL
• Use Exceptional and Infinite Deflection to deflect any Orbs or similar spells
• Get abilities which banish with either no saves or unbeatable save DCs

And then you get killed by casters that can automatically bypass SR, or spells which allow none. Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.

[Superglucose]

And in core at level 20, you better hope the caster hasn't heard of the gate spell.

Or Shapechange. Shapechange would do it too.

[Indon]

Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.

Actually, with the deflection line of feats, this would be by far a preferable strategy, with the interest of deflecting it back on the attacker.

Barring gross exploitation of epic spells (which require you to have an explicitly permissive DM), it's possible to get very strong defenses against magic. In fact, this rather leads to a very real problem for casters in epic campaigns, as without gross exploitation of epic spells (because normal, unexploitative epic magic use is fairly weak) they can end up underpowered against their opponents.

Honestly, though, it's possible to have great defenses against magic. Hell, the Monk, one of the weaker classes in the game, has some of the best defenses against magic.

It's just that the game is so overwhelmingly oriented towards offense that even the best defense won't make your character particularly powerful in the long run.

[Melamoto]

And then you get killed by casters that can automatically bypass SR, or spells which allow none. Especially if the casters are themselves Epic, at which point they can win by literally dropping the Moon on you.

Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.

You seriously think that's the extent of a Caster's power? MDJ=Match. Seriously, even Epic magic items aren't immune to that spell. Oh, and you're talking about custom magic items too, which (if allowed) the caster will have 5 levels before you will.

Forgot about MDJ; I'll admit, you have me on that one. The only protection I see is to buff up your Will Saves and hope for the best.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the second part.

[magic9mushroom]

Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.

No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.

[Sinfire Titan]

Perhaps you didn't notice the part where you can deflect the moon.


Forgot about MDJ; I'll admit, you have me on that one. The only protection I see is to buff up your Will Saves and hope for the best.

But I'm not sure what you mean by the second part.

I don't think there's a magic item that provides perfect Spell Immunity. However, the Custom Magic Item rules allow this. If those rules are allowed, guess who gets to abuse them first? The people who can use the Item Crafting feats. All of a sudden, a Wizard can get access to magic items that produce an At Will Prismatic Sphere, MDJ, Time Stop, and Astral Projection all in the same round. For less than 200K.

[faceroll]

Also;

Maw of Chaos. Have fun dying.

I don't recall seeing that spell in the Player's Handbook....

[Melamoto]

I don't think there's a magic item that provides perfect Spell Immunity. However, the Custom Magic Item rules allow this. If those rules are allowed, guess who gets to abuse them first? The people who can use the Item Crafting feats. All of a sudden, a Wizard can get access to magic items that produce an At Will Prismatic Sphere, MDJ, Time Stop, and Astral Projection all in the same round. For less than 200K.

But apart from MDJ, I'm pretty sure none of those can hurt a decently optimized epic level melee character who has nigh-infinite SR, can remove any summoned creatures from play and has immunity to ranged attacks.

No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.

Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character. And you can just fly out of the lava.

The only major flaws I see is that you are weak vs. MDJ, and that you still can't hurt a caster anyway.

[magic9mushroom]

I don't recall seeing that spell in the Player's Handbook....

Neither did I.

I didn't see most of the Epic rules in Core either.

But apart from MDJ, I'm pretty sure none of those can hurt a decently optimized epic level melee character who has nigh-infinite SR, can remove any summoned creatures from play and has immunity to ranged attacks.

You're wrong.

Firstly, Dispel Magic can suppress magic items.

Secondly, exactly what is he going to do against Forcecage or created creatures with Finger of Death as a (Su) or the Moon being dropped on him?

[magic9mushroom]

Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character. And you can just fly out of the lava.

The only major flaws I see is that you are weak vs. MDJ, and that you still can't hurt a caster anyway.

You're wrong there. You can take more than 20d6 damage. The 20d6 is the maximum from distance. The damage from weight is uncapped. You would therefore take about 100000000000000000000d6 damage, which should be fatal.

[Zeta Kai]

Going by RAW, you can take at most 20d6 falling damage, which is an average of 70 and a maximum of 120. Not exactly fatal for an epic level melee character.

Tell that to Chewbacca.

[Indon]

No, you can't deflect the moon. It's not a ranged attack. It's falling damage. A very large amount of it. And then the planet is melted and you take damage from the lava.

I don't think any of that is RAW.

[Eloel]

Secondly, exactly what is he going to do against Forcecage or created creatures with Finger of Death as a (Su) or the Moon being dropped on him?

In order;
Any teleportation thingy that doesn't require LoE
Ridiculous saves
Suck the 20d6 damage. He has at least triple that. And then there's the fact that all damage that comes from stuff being dropped onto you has a Reflex to avoid. Guess who has a high save?

[Sinfire Titan]

In order;
Any teleportation thingy that doesn't require LoE
Ridiculous saves
Suck the 20d6 damage. He has at least triple that. And then there's the fact that all damage that comes from stuff being dropped onto you has a Reflex to avoid. Guess who has a high save?

1: Of which the above character has none.
2: Of which the above character has none.
3: Not the above character.



Follow up the Moon with Atropus.