[4.0] rogue vs barb.

[faith]

hi, ok in my 1st 4.0 game i got into a stupid argument with another player, to settle it out we decided the next time we level we are going to duel. (we'll be level 2) basically i have dex 20 and cha 16, ill have weapon prof. rapier and lost in the crowd feat. my at wills are sly flourish and the riposte, im changing my encounter to dazing strike, and my daily is trick strike. is there anything else i can do to improve?

also this is how i see it breaking down: i should logically win the initiative (the barb has no dex) the i'll shift backwards and use sneak attack with dazing strike with a throwing star thingy. then ill draw my rapier. on his turn he should be dazed so he will probably just run up, even though the smart thing to do would be take a full defensive action. then my turn again he's granting combat advantage so ill shift next to him and trick strike sneak attack for 3d8+2d6+5 damage. next turn he'll be able to attack me no matter what i do but i can force him to have to roll high enough twice with second chance (halfling racial) then ill bluff/feint to get another sneak attack on him with sly flourish.

so see any room for improvement? (also i got him to agree to not use healing surges so it'll be his 41ish hp to my 22ish)

[Kurald Galain]

hi, ok in my 1st 4.0 game i got into a stupid argument with another player, to settle it out we decided the next time we level we are going to duel. (we'll be level 2) basically i have dex 20 and cha 16, ill have weapon prof. rapier and lost in the crowd feat. my at wills are sly flourish and the riposte, im changing my encounter to dazing strike, and my daily is trick strike. is there anything else i can do to improve?

Yes. Take blinding barrage. Don't use riposte if you're an artful dodger, because it's a brutal scoundrel power. Don't take lost in the crowd for an arena battle. Don't use rapiers at level two, because you can use the feats to boost your dagger instead.

i should logically win the initiative (the barb has no dex) the i'll shift backwards and use sneak attack with dazing strike with a throwing star thingy.

You probably have about a 30% chance of not winning initiative, and about a 40% chance of missing with your shuriken. I don't like those odds very much. And barbarians don't care about being dazed, they'll just charge you for massive damage.

(also i got him to agree to not use healing surges so it'll be his 41ish hp to my 22ish)

If he's got twice as many HP as you do, then you will most likely lose. Overall a well-built barbarian will probably out-damage a rogue; the rogue compensates for this in other ways. But PVP, your odds aren't so good.

[AtopTheMountain]

Short answer: The barbarian will win.

Long answer: The barbarian will win BECAUSE he can out-damage you, has lots of effects that give him temporary HP, likely has decent defenses (especially AC and fort), can out-damage you, and still might win initiative. Oh, and did I mention he can out-damage you?

[Kaun]

Yeah i can't add much that the first two posters havn't already said.

When it comes down to it rogues are damn good to have in a team and can be a devistating member of a front line duo but in a head to head fight with a barb the odds are well stacked against you.

[cupkeyk]

since the barb has low dex and int, switch out all your attacks to ones that target dex. so no to blinding barrage. Piercing Strike, King’s Castle and Precise Incision. definitely short sword for now. If you open with precise incision that's 5d6+dex, possibly bloodying him.

The scariest thing about this battle is the fact that a barb is more dangerous two squares(if he chose the right feats and a maul, he can enter rage and deal 6d6+str damage with his at will) away than he is adjacent, and a rogue is totally squishy adjacent(he can still deal about 3d6+str adjacent).

second you will not have any allies to flank with, so the easiest way to win CA is gone out the window. If you switch over to drow, you could gain CA over two turns with a cloud of darkness. If you win initiative, save the cloud until the second round, if you lose initiative use it immediately. feat choice, maybe weapon expertise and backstabber.

[Apropos]

Yeah... sorry to say, but the barbarian could probably kill you in one hit. You might survive two turns if you don't let him charge, and he misses you.

[Dimers]

Could also try using an action point. Good luck; you'll need it.

[Tiki Snakes]

If you're going to stand a chance, it'll be from getting sneak attack. So that's maybe one for starting first, and...then it gets tricky? You'll not be flanking, so only powers that grant you CA themselves will help.

Basically, you really don't want to miss, and you want to hope the Barb's player is neither particularly bloodthirsty, nor particularly optimised.
Do not go easy on the dailies, because if you don't use them soon, you'll probably not be using them.

[edit] Oh, and yeah. Forcing the barbarian to charge? It might pay off, if you're insanely lucky and he hasn't taken any of the delicious charge-based items, feats and powers.

You never know, eh?

[cupkeyk]

I am not very familiar with barbs but here I go. I am using a 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 8 array. I am choosing human. I am choosing howling strike as my primary at-will and Devastating Strike as a second that I may never use. My daily is Rage drake frenzy and my encounter is Avalanche Strike. I have 33 hitpoints. The good news is that I can't afford an avalanche hammer nor a horned helm yet. but I have a +1 weapon, so i'll make it a bloodclaw +1. my feats are reckless charge and weapon expertise. I start with my rage drake frenzy, If i hit with my +8 that's 6d6+9 (Average 30HP), Then I use Avalanche strike with my Action point for a possible 6d6+6 (Average 27HP damage). Yeah, your dead.

The good news is that at most the barbarian (who for some odd reason started with a 20 con) can only possibly have 41 hit points.

If you have backstabber, and you use precise incision for 3d6+2d8+6(average 25.5) and AP a second blow(king's castle) for 2d6+6 damage (average 13 damage) and survive his first round, you should be able to kill him off with a single blow in the second round.

So I guess its not that bad. It will only be a matter of who wins initiative.

[Mando Knight]

so no to blinding barrage.

Wrongwrongwrong wrongwrong. Blinding Barrage is the best level 1 daily for a Rogue that needs CA badly. It blinds, inflicting one of the three deadliest afflictions in the game (the others are Stunned and Helpless). On top of that, accuracy is the Rogue's schtick, so unless the Barbarian picked up Hide Armor Expertise you're safe on that end.

Here's a basic strategy: you can't use Dazing Strike with a ranged weapon, so you'll need to use it with your sword. On the turn you daze him, end the turn exactly one square away unless he uses reach weapons. Using Blinding Barrage rather than Trick Strike gets you one more Sneak Attack in before you need to use Bluff + AP Sly Flourish.

In other words, if you start adjacent to the guy, draw a dagger and Dazing Strike his face before moving 1 square away (1d4+2d6+5, 8 to 21). Next turn, draw the rapier if it's not in your hand already and use Blinding Barrage with the dagger (2d4+2d6+5, 9 to 25), then move a couple of squares to take advantage of his blindness. Then, use Sly Flourish (1d8+2d6+8, 11 to 28) on your next turn before he has a chance to charge you. If you miss, use an Action Point to try again.

If you hit, AP Sly Flourish. Next turn, Sly Flourish without CA or Sneak Attack... sounds stupid at first, but 2d8+16 (18 to 32) is better than 1d8+2d6+8 (11 to 28).

[Kurald Galain]

since the barb has low dex and int, switch out all your attacks to ones that target dex. so no to blinding barrage. Piercing Strike, King’s Castle and Precise Incision. definitely short sword for now.

You know, if hitting is that important to you, then you should really use the dagger for that additional +1.

And take Weapon Expertise, and that feat that gives you +3 instead of +2 on combat advantage. Both actually let you do more damage than Backstabber does.

That said, you need an arena with hiding places to stand a chance, really.

[Farlion]

Your a rogue. Do what you can do best. Depending on your alignment, either kill him the night before the duel, while he is sound asleep or steal his weapon and hide it.

Second way: outwit him.

When two people want to duel, one may choose the weapon, the other the place.

If he chooses the place, choose shuriken or daggers as weapons. This will gimp him. If he wants to choose the weapon, think of a place, where he is seriously in disadvantage. On a treetop for example.

Cheers,
Farlion

[DragonBaneDM]

Cheat. And cheat HARD. Some one is going to walk away from that table with their feelings hurt. Don't fudge dice rolls or anything, I mean cheating in game, make SURE your character has the absolute best advantage.

I dueled as a Rogue once against a Fighter. I guarantee I did not get spanked as badly as you are going to.

With that high Cha, getting another party member to help you out is an absolute possibility. I also strongly support attacking him in his sleep. He might sleep in his armor, but oh well. Coup de grace is nice.

Make it after a long dungeon when all his dailies are down and he's just started his extended rest.

Your rogue will NOT win in a straight fight. Sorry.

[Tiki Snakes]

I don't know guys, I was kind of getting the impression that this was going to be other than a 'to the death' style dual.

So cutting the sleeping barbarian's throat is probably a wee bit rude.

[DragonBaneDM]

Yeah, I get that. But if that's the case and the rogue can't do anything REALLY sneaky, he'll lose. If you're a rogue, you gotta cheat to win.

[incubus5075]

Do you have access to DnDI? If so stick with the rapier take the feat that you get to apply sneak attack with a rapier if no other ally is adjacent to the enemy....which in a duel will be the case. Now you don't have to worry about getting that CA, though a +2 to hit helps. if the barb took hide armor expertise use the at-will that targets reflex. If not use the atwill that adds CHA to dmg. Stick with the above post's idea of only getting one square away so when dazed he can not charge you (awesome idea I never thought of, i give you props).

For feats rapier prof and backstaber look ideal. In my opinion, in this case only, the double damage of a rapier over a dagger compared to an extra 5% to hit is worth it. You gotta take this guys HP down fast.

I would consider saying no magic items allowed so he can't use a blood claw exec axe or something like that. But you should get some poison (not magic :) alchemy items, con a wizard into 'shielding' you or something and try to cheat....you ARE a rogue.

The down side to all this being that at lower levels the barb Does more dmg than the rogue. I love the rogue though so I cheering for you!

[Yakk]

Rapier is a good weapon for (A) high[W] attacks, and (B) some Rapier-specific feats.

Other than that, go Dagger.

At level 2, Nimble Blade and Weapon Expertise (Light Blades).

+5 dex, +1 level, +1 enhance. +3 prof, +1 nimble, +2 CA, +1 expertise
+14 to hit.

If he's in +1 hide with 12 dex, that gives him 17 AC. You hit on a 3 with combat advantage.

Sure, you only do 15.5 damage on average ([W]+dex attack), but You hit on a 3. You can do better than this (18.5 with sly flourish, for example).

He has 12 dex to your 20, so it is +2 init vs +6 init.

If you win init, you can do an attack with combat advantage for 15.5 damage that grants combat advantage the next turn. Then you can close and repeat the next turn.

81% chance of two hits in a row for an average of 31 damage, using two [W]+Dex damage attacks that target AC.

1d20+6 vs 1d20+2 is a 4 point edge on initiative.
20% chance (17-20) that you win
Overlapping 20% chance (1-4) they lose.

64% chance (you get a 1-16, and they get a 5-20) that they have a fighting chance.

We'll resolve ties via 50-50 (what is the official rule?), making your chance at winning initiative 32%+36% = 68%.

This gives you a 55% chance to win initiative, hit with your first attack, then hit with your second attack.

Your AC, meanwhile, is 19 or so. His attack is +5 (stat)+1 (implement)+3(prof)+1(expertise)=+10, so he hits on a 9+.

His damage will be something like 3d12+6 on the first hit, which might be enough to kill you right out.

Hmm.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Hmmm... as the barb has a low dex/int, also will have a low Ref defense.
Retrain one of your at-wills for piercing strike, wich targets Ref. Then with your 2nd level feat, choose Flash of the Blade, from dragon 381 (I think), wich allows you to always sneak attack an enemy, even if you don't have CA, if you wield a rapier and no ally is adjacent to him.

[EDIT] Also, I agree the barb has more chance of winning, because he's a barb after all and can do AND take massive amounts of damage. But you are a rogue, and that means that you don't have to attach to stupid honor rules when your life is in danger. Just slit his throat when he's sleeping. 100% rogue. The big win.

[BlckDv]

I further the many suggestions to ICly cheat your butt off. I does sound like more of a bragging rights duel than a fight to the death, so I would not go as far as coup de gras in his sleep; but I would strongly advocate slipping him non-lethal poison in his food/water that will give you an edge, and have a second poison handy for your weapons in the fight, if possible. If you know ahead of time, you could even try to expose him to a disease with combat penalties.

If you know ahead of time where the fight will occur; rig it. Make shallow pits of loose sand (should count as difficult terrain) trip wires, and other simple hazards that you can use to disrupt his charge attacks and hopefully leave him prone, slowed, or otherwise compromised.

Further, if it is not a fight to the death.. bribe the judges. Use gold and charisma to get whoever is calling the winner to call his best moves off-limits, to ignore you doing things like stepping out of bounds, and otherwise give you an edge. If he does knock you out, have the ref call it unfair and order a re-do, with him now missing out on his daily, leaving him with no rage and you still having SA for the rematch.

Fight Anger with Dishonesty, it is your only hope, especially with no surges allowed.

[randomhero00]

You could also trap the battle ground ahead of time. Even if they are simple, "I dig a small pit, and cover the top with twigs and leaves." Basically email or hand a note to you DM ahead of time with alllll the things mentioned here + whatever you can think of that's reasonable for your character to do in the allotted time.

[Sipex]

what are your trained skills?

[cupkeyk]

Using bling barrage assumes a second round. There shouldn't be a second round. The barb can kill the rogue in one hit. The rogue should kill the barb in approximately two, precise incision and AP king's castle.

[Kylarra]

Using bling barrage assumes a second round. There shouldn't be a second round. The barb can kill the rogue in one hit. The rogue should kill the barb in approximately two, precise incision and AP king's castle.

Now I have the image of a rogue throwing a giant golden chain and some rings...

[Kurald Galain]

Using bling barrage assumes a second round. There shouldn't be a second round. The barb can kill the rogue in one hit. The rogue should kill the barb in approximately two, precise incision and AP king's castle.

That's assuming they hit. If the rogue hits with Bling Barrage first, then the barb will be blinded (by the shinies, heh) and likely to miss the rogue.

[Shardan]

Use the dazed move and stand one space away. He has to be 2 spaces away to charge he can either move to you, move away from you, or throw something at you. At this level, though. It really can easily come down to luck. If you hit the daze and he fails his save, he may not get a swing off. If he gets one crit he could drop you in one.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Use the dazed move and stand one space away. He has to be 2 spaces away to charge he can either move to you, move away from you, or throw something at you. At this level, though. It really can easily come down to luck. If you hit the daze and he fails his save, he may not get a swing off. If he gets one crit he could drop you in one.

He could have Pressing Strike, which is a free Shift 2 before attacking.

Honestly, if you could get a Save Ends Immobilize you'd be better off. Find a way to maintain CA and then kill him at range.

But seriously - you've already lost

[Yakk]

If you keep the Barbarian to doing "basic attacks while blind", you are probably going to win.

[cupkeyk]

bling definitely makes more sense than cutting a person's brow so that their own blood gets into their eye. I think it would be glitter. A la mariah carey.

Anyway, the blind condition will only last until the end of your next turn. I say blow your wad on the first round.

[Yakk]

Weapon Expertise(Light Blade), Backstab-with-action-point feats.

1: Bet on winning initiative.

Move to attack range. Blind the barbarian.

Action point. Opening Move.

Total damage dealt if both hit:
4d4+4d6+12 = 32.5 average.
Your AC is now up to 24 (10 + 1 Level + 2 Leather +5 Dex +1 Enhance +5 power)

He has +5 str, +1 weapon, +2-3 prof, +1 enhance, +1 level = +11 to hit. So he needs a 18+ to hit you at this point.

Sadly, your HP are low enough that if he does hit you, he might drop you. :)

2: Hope you survive against the blind barbarian, or you got lucky on round 1.

Sly Flourish for 1d4+2d6+9 damage. If he's not dead, you are screwed.

[DragonBaneDM]

You're dealing sneak attack damage twice on that opening move. Rogues can only do that once per round, or with a Paragon Tier action point feat.