How do cleric liches protect themselves?

[Frosty]

Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells? Unless the Lich can somehow Persist Greater Spell Immunity (not all of my NPC casters abuse DMM), Disintegrate will be a huge problem. Also my PCs love to use rods and Sudden Metamagic feats to maximize there damage spells like the Orb series or Ball Lightning, and the average HP for a level 15 lich is only around 100. Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

[Vaynor]

I think there's a template that adds your Charisma modifier to your hit points instead of Constitution, I forget what it is though.

[mostlyharmful]

dips into an initiator class for some diamond mind

[Frosty]

You mean the counter that let's you sub a Concentration check for a Fort save? But it doesn't fit into the character backstory of the cleric.

[Gorgondantess]

Well, you can take a feat to be able to use the maneuver once/encounter.

[Riffington]

Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

Sounds dangerous!

[Splendor]

Monster Manual
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
Undead Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits.
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
—Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.

Now if it's a spell you still have to make a save against...
Have your Lich wear a modified Headband of Conscious Effort. Normally that item only works 1/day, but according to the DMG magical item creation rules for x5 cost it should function at will. So for 10,000gp you make Concentration checks instead of Fort Saves.

Otherwise
Ring of Counterspells disintegrate.

Great Fort feat adds +2

Protection from Spells grants +8 vs spells.

DMG allows you to make items that grant you "other" non resistance bonuses to saves (PG285) an example is the "stone of good luck" which grants a +1 luck bonus to saves. So a +5 luck bonus would cost 50,000gp and stack with resistance bonuses.

15 Lv Lich Cleric could have a 24 Fort save without having a con score.
15 Lv Wizard could have a 20 Fort save (22 w/rat familiar).

And this is with not having any multiclass Base Fort increases.

[Frosty]

True but I don't want to make all the other saves sky-high. Also, I don't want to give the Lich *too* much treasure since the PCs will defeat said lich at some point in the campaign.

Hmm...I think I'll just convert to the Pathfinder version of undead for the lich. D8 hitdice, uses Charisma for Fort save and bonus HP. Solves a lot of problems with one stone.

Also, I was thinking of having those cleric servants cast Shield Other on the lich.

[Pyro_Azer]

I think there's a template that adds your Charisma modifier to your hit points instead of Constitution, I forget what it is though.

Dry lich

Which incidentaly, you get for free from being na walker in the waste which is an absolutely awesome cleric PrC.

[JoshuaZ]

Yes, your physical body is potentially weak. In the case of the cleric it is clearly weaker than that for the wizard lich. That may very why wizards are more likely to become lichs (and also clerics might have less uncertainty or worries about their afterlives).

The nice thing about being a lich isn't your durability. It is your ability to regenerate. Yes, a disintegrate will be unpleasant. But I come back later unless you can find and destroy my phylactery. And I'm immortal. Seems like a good enough change.

There are a number of ways of making this better anyways. There's a feat in I think Libris Mortis which allows an undead to add their charisma bonus to their fort saves for example.

[Frosty]

Still, I don't wanna make the *encounter* too easy. Remember, defeat = exp.

[Apropos]

Why would you worry about that? Undead aren't affected by anything that requires a fortitude save. And even then, I think they're allowed to use their charisma modifier as a bonus to fortitude saves.

To protect his HP, the lich can cast darkness or invisibility or something.

[Pandaren]

Also, I was thinking of having those cleric servants cast Shield Other on the lich.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

Cant' stop laughing...

Is that why you were asking?

[JoshuaZ]

Still, I don't wanna make the *encounter* too easy. Remember, defeat = exp.

Only in the metagame.

Why would you worry about that? Undead aren't affected by anything that requires a fortitude save. And even then, I think they're allowed to use their charisma modifier as a bonus to fortitude saves.

No. Undead are not affected by things which require a fortitude save unless it can effect an object. The exact wording in the SRD is that undead have "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).


While some undead get to add their charisma to all fortitude saves, lichs are not one of them. See the lich page.

[Frosty]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!!

Cant' stop laughing...

Is that why you were asking?

Why is it funny? The idea first came from this yes.

[Nerocite]

While some undead get to add their charisma to all fortitude saves, lichs are not one of them. See the lich page.

I think you mean Unholy Toughness, where a monster gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

I don't know anything about Fort saves.

[JoshuaZ]

I think you mean Unholy Toughness, where a monster gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.

I don't know anything about Fort saves.

That's probably it.

[TheCountAlucard]

You can also boost his HPs a small amount with False Life.

[Ashiel]

Find a way to cast greater teleport. Bury your phylactery on the moon, or a moon somewhere in the remotest parts of your galaxy. If needed, planet hope a few times so you can explore new planetary systems.

Don't bring your phylactery when exploring. If you end up in a black hole, accidentally mistake a star for a planet, or find a planet with some sort of inhospitable climate (say oceans and atmospheres of sulfuric acid), try again when you reform on your own planet.

Eventually, once you've charted a clever hiding place on some random dirt clod out in the furthest reaches of space; stash your phylactery there, and go back to business as usual. When you eventually gain the ability to cast genesis, make your own plane, throw your phylactery in it, and forget about it. Not even gods can enter your own plane without your permission, so you're pretty much immortal.

[ericgrau]

Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells? Unless the Lich can somehow Persist Greater Spell Immunity (not all of my NPC casters abuse DMM), Disintegrate will be a huge problem. Also my PCs love to use rods and Sudden Metamagic feats to maximize there damage spells like the Orb series or Ball Lightning, and the average HP for a level 15 lich is only around 100. Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?

Liches are already immune to 2 energy types. Resist energy and protection from energy cover 2 more, leaving only one hole. That and your DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (who carries that as a main weapon?) means HP damage is not much of a problem for liches. Really disintegrate is the only problem, and for that you buy a 24,500 gp rod of greater extend for your greater spell immunity. As a cleric you can also heal more HP than you have with a harm.

As for boosting fort saves, I'd instead see about stopping the few spells that can still affect you if possible. If there's too many then ok, fine, boost the save.

[Occasional Sage]

Find a way to cast greater teleport. Bury your phylactery on the moon, or a moon somewhere in the remotest parts of your galaxy. If needed, planet hope a few times so you can explore new planetary systems.

As a divine lich, why not just leave your phylactery with your deity? I'm guessing the lich will be beefy enough to be on great terms with whichever is it's Big Guy.

True but I don't want to make all the other saves sky-high. Also, I don't want to give the Lich *too* much treasure since the PCs will defeat said lich at some point in the campaign.

I'd assume that the lich has made most of it's own stuff. Build in a divine version of Instant Summons that can circumvent the "not in somebody else's possession" problem and drop the summoning gem with your phylactery, or deliberately curse the item while making it to bestow two negative levels (which you're immune to) whenever it's equipped or used. Or both.

Heck if you don't want to up the spell level of Instant Summons to steal the item back, two negative levels would get just about anything chucked into the bag of "we'll try to sell it later thanks" which in my mind means it hasn't been claimed. It's free game for an angry immortal with the ear of a God to recover at will.

To protect his HP, the lich can cast darkness or invisibility or something.

Try Blacklight.

[kentma57]

Well. Very well.

[Godskook]

How practical would miss-chance equipment be? Most of the stuff you're concerned with requires attack rolls. Try optimizing your lich's AC as a monk(Wear belt + enchant a common robe with a +5 deflection bonus) If you can't get a touch-AC of at least 30, you're just not trying.

[Saurus33]

If you wanted complete immunity to disintegrate, you could have this lich carry a "Spellblade" dagger. From Player's Guide to Faerun, gives immunity to one single-target spell, chosen at time of creation, so long as the weapon is actually being held.

[olentu]

If you wanted complete immunity to disintegrate, you could have this lich carry a "Spellblade" dagger. From Player's Guide to Faerun, gives immunity to one single-target spell, chosen at time of creation, so long as the weapon is actually being held.

I believe that disintigrate like most rays creates an effect and is not a targeted spell. I also recall that the spellblade enchantment only protects against targeted spells.

[Ashiel]

I had a really weird idea but...

Maybe a heightened sanctuary spell, and just sit around summoning and using your commanded and animated undead legions to do your dirty work while you're healing them? Humorously, you could end up making it so anyone attacking you would have to make a pretty high will save; especially if your wisdom is buffed for being a lich.

Multiple castings of the spell would force multiple saving throws, as well. Then you could sit back casting stuff like summon undead III to call out huge red dragon skeletons, or summon monster I-IX, or just focus on healing your armies of wights, shadows, skeletons, zombies, and wraiths.

Just some ideas.

[magic9mushroom]

Disintegrate is easy. Greater Spell Immunity (Disintegrate). Of course, this assumes he's high enough level to get Greater Spell Immunity.

Apart from that, they're just as good at defending themselves as the living.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.

How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells?

YOU'RE A FULL CASTER!

[faceroll]

You can also boost his HPs a small amount with False Life.

As well as the slow trait; 1/2 move speed for +1 hp/level.

[Greenish]

YOU'RE A FULL CASTER!

Yes, that is the problem.It's an NPC and supposed to be defeated by players.