Advancing a Fighter

[Math_Mage]

I just started a campaign with a level-2 human fighter, and I'm trying to plan out his levels. The focus right now is on attacks of opportunity and tripping.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8

Flaws: Vulnerable, Murky-Eyed
Feats:
Lvl 1:
Base--EWP: Spiked Chain
Human--Combat Expertise
Flaw--Combat Reflexes
Flaw--Deft Opportunist (CAdv)
Fighter--Power Attack
Lvl 2: Improved Trip

And, my current plan if this goes to Fighter-20:
3: Dodge
4: Resolute
6: Mobility
6: Elusive Target (CW)
8: Improved Bull Rush
9: Shock Trooper (CW)
10: Improved Sunder
12: Combat Brute (CW)
12: Mageslayer (CA)
12: Pierce Magical Concealment (CA)
14: Robilar's Gambit (PHB II)
16: Overpowering Blow ACF (PHB II)
18: Leap Attack (CAdv)
18: Knockback (RoS)
20: Hold the Line (CW)

Other feats considered: Karmic Strike, Spring Attack

Right now, I feel like the build might be a little unfocused. Vague, I know. I'm also not sure about the feat order, and with a Beguiler, Sorcerer, and Cleric in the party (and one other Fighter), anti-mage tactics might not be necessary. My DM is unlikely to allow anything from Dragon Magazine, or Dragon anything really. ToB is fine. I'm open to multiclassing suggestions as well.

Thoughts?

[herrhauptmann]

Move up 'hold the line' knockback and leap attack.
Take Exotic weapon master for the flurry strike (chain and double weapons).

Vexing and adaptable flanker phb2 (makes you more reliant on teamwork, and more likely to help your allies). Vae school (drow of underdark)

Why dodge and mobility? Which are they prereqs for?

Pierce magical concealment requires Blindfight.

YOu're a chain fighter, so you don't NEED the typical ubercharger feats of combatbrute, shocktrooper, and leap attack.
Just being an AOO monster will take up most of your lower level feats.

[Apropos]

I'm not too great in the way of optimization, but it seems apparent that you should get shock trooper and leap attack a little earlier. Also, it might be better to take Karmic Strike early on as well, and ditch Robilar's Gambit.

EDIT: Dodge and Mobility are prereqs for Elusive Target, a somewhat useful tactical feat in the way of survivability against power attack, but not much else. Although you can get your opponents to hit eachother with it too...

EDIT2: *Facepalm* Duh. Look in lords of madness for your abberant feats and pick up the arm one, you'll have 15ft. reach as a medium character for a measly -1 to attack.

[Sinfire Titan]

Elusive Attack is nigh worthless. Level-dip Warblade, taking Wall of Blades, and by a Cloak of Displacement instead. Saves feats.

[Math_Mage]

*confused* I found the most worthwhile part of Elusive Target to be the ability to make free trip attempts, and subsequent attacks, against missed AoO's. Is it just that at higher levels people won't be missing those?

Aberrant feats don't work for this campaign, sorry. We're unlikely to run into anything that would make them plausible.

I'll look into Exotic Weapon Master. I see the utility in moving up those three feats, but to where?

[herrhauptmann]

I'll look into Exotic Weapon Master. I see the utility in moving up those three feats, but to where?

-You're missing your level 15 feat.
-And there you have the problem with the chainwielding maniac. You need a LOT of feats.
-I would say push back shocktrooper. When you charge, you have to stop in the first square in which you can hit your enemy, so you're not really going to be close enough to use the bullrush all that often. (But yes, heedless charge is always awesome. Especially since at lower levels, a chainfighter is actually going to get attacked a lot less than the average enemy.)
Plus, you're holding a spiked chain, one of its biggest advantages is reach. Sorta pointless to negate that by getting adjacent to an enemy.
-It's a shame you've already started, I'd have recommended using Jotunbrud (players guide to faerun I think). It's not powerful build, but you do get a +4 to opposed rolls WHEN IT'S ADVANTAGEOUS.
-Look at the skill tricks that let you stand from prone without taking an AOO (complete scoundrel). Currently when you fail a trip attempt, you've got 2 options. Drop your weapon, or fall over. WIth the right skill trick, you can opt to fall down, then stand as a free action. Plus, it lets you lock your gauntlet, vital if DM rules that any fumbled attack results in a dropped weapon.
-Sidestep. Requires dodge and mobility (which you're already taking). Allows further combat maneuvering when it's not your turn.
-Get martial stance: Island of Blades. Ultimate for lockdown build.
-If you can guarantee your damage to be 10 or more, take knockdown (among other advantages, lets you trip someone with an AOO if you can deal 10 points of damage.) With 16 str, you've got a minimum of 6 damage already Average of 9. Getting strength to 18 will give you a minimum of 8, average of 11.
-What is the other fighter using? And how is the cleric going to use his character?
I've had a chainwielding maniac before. He was part of a large party which had a neanderthal barbarian and a goliath paladin. So I built him to be a second string fighter. Worked hard to give out flanking to allies (partly misread vexing/adaptable flanker), and by being a second string fighter, I was actually more effective than if I had duplicated teh other two and made another leap attack/combat brute with a huge or larger weapon.
The reason I think I was more effective, was because I was able to help the other two brutes to be more effective than they could be on their own. DM also gave out XP for tactics and roleplaying.

[Math_Mage]

Hoo boy. Lotta information. Take it one step at a time.

-You're missing your level 15 feat.

Oopsie.

-And there you have the problem with the chainwielding maniac. You need a LOT of feats.

Too true. This is my first time building a fighter, so I've never dealt with either having so many feat slots or needing so many feat slots.

-I would say push back shocktrooper. When you charge, you have to stop in the first square in which you can hit your enemy, so you're not really going to be close enough to use the bullrush all that often. (But yes, heedless charge is always awesome. Especially since at lower levels, a chainfighter is actually going to get attacked a lot less than the average enemy.)
Plus, you're holding a spiked chain, one of its biggest advantages is reach. Sorta pointless to negate that by getting adjacent to an enemy.

Point. I hadn't noticed that about charging.

-It's a shame you've already started, I'd have recommended using Jotunbrud (players guide to faerun I think). It's not powerful build, but you do get a +4 to opposed rolls WHEN IT'S ADVANTAGEOUS.

I looked at it, almost took it, and then said, "naaaaah..." Partly it's just that pure human is a comfort zone I'm not willing to break out of just yet.

-Look at the skill tricks that let you stand from prone without taking an AOO (complete scoundrel). Currently when you fail a trip attempt, you've got 2 options. Drop your weapon, or fall over. WIth the right skill trick, you can opt to fall down, then stand as a free action. Plus, it lets you lock your gauntlet, vital if DM rules that any fumbled attack results in a dropped weapon.

Ah, I was laboring under the mistaken impression that Improved Trip canceled the counter-trip attempt as well as the AoO on the attempt. I'll look into it.

-Sidestep. Requires dodge and mobility (which you're already taking). Allows further combat maneuvering when it's not your turn.

Saw it, wasn't sure whether to add it. Guess I am now.

-Get martial stance: Island of Blades. Ultimate for lockdown build.

Not as crucial without a rogue in the party, but I'll add it where I can.

-If you can guarantee your damage to be 10 or more, take knockdown (among other advantages, lets you trip someone with an AOO if you can deal 10 points of damage.) With 16 str, you've got a minimum of 6 damage already Average of 9. Getting strength to 18 will give you a minimum of 8, average of 11.

What is with all the good things that start with 'knock'? Including straight-up Knock.

-What is the other fighter using? And how is the cleric going to use his character?

It's play by post, so I'm not really familiar with the other players and haven't asked them about how they're planning to build their chars. Here's the fighter and the cleric.

I've had a chainwielding maniac before. He was part of a large party which had a neanderthal barbarian and a goliath paladin. So I built him to be a second string fighter. Worked hard to give out flanking to allies (partly misread vexing/adaptable flanker), and by being a second string fighter, I was actually more effective than if I had duplicated teh other two and made another leap attack/combat brute with a huge or larger weapon.
The reason I think I was more effective, was because I was able to help the other two brutes to be more effective than they could be on their own. DM also gave out XP for tactics and roleplaying.

Well, the fighter dwarf may make a good primary to my secondary, if it comes to that.

[herrhauptmann]

I looked at it, almost took it, and then said, "naaaaah..." Partly it's just that pure human is a comfort zone I'm not willing to break out of just yet.

You're still human, just a little, um, bigger.

Ah, I was laboring under the mistaken impression that Improved Trip canceled the counter-trip attempt as well as the AoO on the attempt. I'll look into it.

Nope, gives you a bonus to trip, and removes the AOO, he can still try to trip you if it fails.

It's play by post, so I'm not really familiar with the other players and haven't asked them about how they're planning to build their chars. Here's the fighter and the cleric.
Well, the fighter dwarf may make a good primary to my secondary, if it comes to that.

Looks like he wants damage more than accuracy, so he'll probably welcome someone whose goal is to always grant him flanking. Might as well email him and ask what his goals are and if he'll go al ong with you on this. If he intends to launch himself into melee and then ignore the party, you're not going to find it very easy to back him up

[Sinfire Titan]

*confused* I found the most worthwhile part of Elusive Target to be the ability to make free trip attempts, and subsequent attacks, against missed AoO's. Is it just that at higher levels people won't be missing those?

1: If they are making AoOs, you're doing something wrong.
2: Not everything has Power Attack. Hell, some iconic monsters have no stats (Some Dragons have to be hand-made).
3: Not everything that has Power Attack will use it every round.
4: It's one attack out of 3 or 4 a round, 5 or more if AoOs are being granted. Dodging one at your leisure isn't as important as being able to make them miss 50% of the time and negating one of the two or so attacks that will hit. Your Attack bonus is going to be higher than your AC anyway.

[Person_Man]

1) Humans don't qualify for Knockback. You need Powerful Build or Large+ size. And although it's a great tactic at mid-low levels (especially with the Dungeoncrasher alternate class feature from Dungonscape, which you are conspicuously missing for some reason). Using Knockback against your enemies is a poor tactic at high levels, as it pushes them away from you and can prevent you from making a full attack against any single enemy.

2) If you're going to take Improved Trip, take Knock-Down. Also note that you can't use Improved Trip/Knock-Down and Stand Still at the same time and they both basically serve the same function. You could argue that you'd use Imp Trip 90% of the time but use Stand Still against big/strong/ethereal enemies, but in general it's a waste to take both.

3) All you need to use Sunder reliably is an adamantine reach weapon. Imp Sunder and Combat Brute are usually a waste, and often destroys your treasure. The exception is if your DM is really really fond of humanoid enemies (who almost always use weapons and/or spell component pouches), and rarely uses anything else, which do not.

4) Elusive Target isn't worth the 2 cruddy feat investment unless your DM is very fond of Power Attack. Also note that at mid-higher levels, your biggest enemy is magic/psionics/spell-like abilities, not melee damage.

5) Deft Opportunist is also a waste unless you're getting multiple AoO every round. I know that it looks like your build should get a ton of AoO, and in some combats it will. But keep in mind that if an enemy doesn't Charge up to you and make melee attacks, it probably won't provoke very often. So this feat is also a bit of a waste.

6) Resolute is a great alternate class feature, but I'd wait until much higher level to take it. Alternatively, you can take Deformity (Madness) for immunity to Mind Affecting effects (which are 90% of Will Saves) or the superior Insane Defiance to redirect them.

7) In most cases EWP Spiked Chain is a waste, as you can just take a 5 ft step when you need to. If you were a Psychic Warrior using Expansion or something similar, it might be worth it.

Suggested feats: Fearless Destiny, Slave to Evil, Arcane Schooling, Leadership, Aberration Blood + Deepspawn and/or Inhuman Reach, Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall and/or Madness, Martial Study/Stance, Imperious Command (with Zhenterim Fighter add on)

[Math_Mage]

1: If they are making AoOs, you're doing something wrong.

The idea is to deliberately provoke attacks when I have a +4 bonus to AC, as opposed to waiting for them to attack on my turn. This may not be desirable when facing someone whose BAB dwarfs my AC, but that's not someone I would use the tactic against to begin with.

2: Not everything has Power Attack. Hell, some iconic monsters have no stats (Some Dragons have to be hand-made).
3: Not everything that has Power Attack will use it every round.

I consider the PA negation a bonus. A situational but nice one.

4: It's one attack out of 3 or 4 a round, 5 or more if AoOs are being granted. Dodging one at your leisure isn't as important as being able to make them miss 50% of the time and negating one of the two or so attacks that will hit. Your Attack bonus is going to be higher than your AC anyway.

Tripping is also a good way to negate full attacks...Regardless, if you're thinking of a feat that has that effect, please say it. Maybe it's just that I'm not keeping good track of what's been offered, but I'm not aware of anything that has that mechanical effect.

[Runestar]

Tripping is also a good way to negate full attacks

If they are within reach, they can still full-attack while prone, though they will have an attack penalty, IIRC.

I consider the PA negation a bonus. A situational but nice one.

Compared to? They can just not PA. I suppose it is a bonus vs monsters with attack > your AC, since they cannot funnel this into extra damage vs you.

[Glimbur]

The idea is to deliberately provoke attacks when I have a +4 bonus to AC, as opposed to waiting for them to attack on my turn. This may not be desirable when facing someone whose BAB dwarfs my AC, but that's not someone I would use the tactic against to begin with.

Unless you're moving away to avoid a full attack, all that provoking an AoO does is give your opponent another chance to hit you.

[Eldariel]

-Get martial stance: Island of Blades. Ultimate for lockdown build.

I think he means "Thicket of Blades", which indeed is ultimate-awesome for a Lockdownist.

[herrhauptmann]

I think he means "Thicket of Blades", which indeed is ultimate-awesome for a Lockdownist.

Could well be. Never got around to building a ToB character, so I tend to mess up their powers.

[Eldariel]

Could well be. Never got around to building a ToB character, so I tend to mess up their powers.

Thicket of Blades = AoO for...basically any movement. Island of Blades = Flank people by just being adjacent to them.

[Math_Mage]

Unless you're moving away to avoid a full attack, all that provoking an AoO does is give your opponent another chance to hit you.

But that's when he's least likely to hit me, and if he misses, I get to try to trip him.

If they are within reach, they can still full-attack while prone, though they will have an attack penalty, IIRC.

Oh?...yeah, reading the SRD, that's true enough, though a little weird.

And to the others, yeah, Thicket of Blades is a pretty awesome stance. I may run Crusader just for that.

EDIT: Oh, wait, Charisma. Hmmm...could be a problem.

[Sinfire Titan]

But that's when he's least likely to hit me, and if he misses, I get to try to trip him.



Oh?...yeah, reading the SRD, that's true enough, though a little weird.

And to the others, yeah, Thicket of Blades is a pretty awesome stance. I may run Crusader just for that.

EDIT: Oh, wait, Charisma. Hmmm...could be a problem.

Thicket of Blades needs no ability scores to function. You can still dump Cha.

[herrhauptmann]

Thicket of Blades needs no ability scores to function. You can still dump Cha.

Is there some other aspect of Crusader which relies on charisma?

[tonberrian]

Is there some other aspect of Crusader which relies on charisma?

A mini Divine Grace - only on will saves, explicitly doesn't stack with the former, and several levels into the class.

[Math_Mage]

Thicket of Blades needs no ability scores to function. You can still dump Cha.

I was under the impression that the Crusader relied on Cha fairly heavily like the Paladin. I'm, ah, getting the manual now.

Hmmm...Nothing except Smiting seems to pay attention to that. I guess that doesn't make a huge difference, then.

[Eldariel]

I was under the impression that the Crusader relied on Cha fairly heavily like the Paladin. I'm, ah, getting the manual now.

Hmmm...Nothing except Smiting seems to pay attention to that. I guess that doesn't make a huge difference, then.

ToB-classes are all like that; they can benefit of a mental score, but they are perfectly fine without any.

[Math_Mage]

ToB-classes are all like that; they can benefit of a mental score, but they are perfectly fine without any.

Well, since my Fighter is +INT, that would make a Warblade happy...except that Warblades don't get Thicket of Blades. Oh well, happy times nonetheless.

[Eldariel]

Well, since my Fighter is +INT, that would make a Warblade happy...except that Warblades don't get Thicket of Blades. Oh well, happy times nonetheless.

Well, two-level dip in Crusader, or Martial Study + Martial Stance buys you Thicket of Blades as any class, so it's not that big a problem.

[Math_Mage]

Well, two-level dip in Crusader, or Martial Study + Martial Stance buys you Thicket of Blades as any class, so it's not that big a problem.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this, since the feat descriptions are a little bit complicated and the book is a little sketchy about telling you what feats you can learn when, but it seems like it would take at least a dip in Crusader AND both feats, since Martial Study doesn't let you bypass the prerequisite and Martial Stance requires a maneuver in the school whose stance you intend to take. And since Thicket of Blades is Crusader 3, from what I can tell that means you need 5 levels in Crusader to use it without the feats. Gah, it's kind of hurting my brain.

[Eldariel]

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this, since the feat descriptions are a little bit complicated and the book is a little sketchy about telling you what feats you can learn when, but it seems like it would take at least a dip in Crusader AND both feats, since Martial Study doesn't let you bypass the prerequisite and Martial Stance requires a maneuver in the school whose stance you intend to take. And since Thicket of Blades is Crusader 3, from what I can tell that means you need 5 levels in Crusader to use it without the feats. Gah, it's kind of hurting my brain.

Ignore the level requirements. They're just guidelines, telling you which classes get the ability naturally. Relevant part is that it's a level 3 stance of Devoted Spirit.

To Martial Stance it, you need one maneuver from Devoted Spirit, which Martial Study: Foehammer/Crusader's Strike/Whatever provides. The other prerequisite is Initiator Level 5. Having that IL in any of the classes is enough, but unless you're a Crusader, you need feats to pick them up.


Note that a non-Initiator gets ½ level as Initiator Level so level 10 Fighter also has Initiator Level 5. Following builds can all pick it up:

Warblade 6: Martial Study on level 3, Martial Stance on 6)
Swordsage 6: See above
Crusader 8: Just use the level-up Stance from level 8 to pick it up; you could Martial Stance it on level 6 of course.
Fighter (or any other class) 6/Crusader 2: You don't even need to burn a feat on it. Here, Crusader 2 gains a Stance and thanks to Fighter/Whatever-levels, your Initiator level is 6/2+2 = 5, enough to pick it up.
Fighter 10: Martial Study on...any level before, and Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades on 10.

Stuff like Warblade 6/Crusader 2 works just fine too. Basically, every Initiator-class you have tracks its Initiator Level separately. So Warblade 6/Crusader 2 would be IL 6+½*2= IL 7 Warblade and IL 6*½ + 2 = IL 5 Crusader. And all you need to pick a maneuver is meeting its IL and Maneuvers Known-prerequisites.

Martial Stance only requires one maneuver from the same school, and as such, one Martial Study fulfills the prerequisites to pick it up without a single level of Crusader. Of course, a single level of Crusader fills the prerequisites too (as long as you pick a Devoted Spirit maneuver). This also fills Thicket of Blade's prerequisites (knowing one other Devoted Spirit maneuver), working out quite perfectly.

[Math_Mage]

Okay, I *think* I get it...Thanks for the explanation.