Witchslayer

[quiet1mi]

What do you guys think about the Witchslayer prestige class?

I was thinking about making a witchslayer 5 Paladin 5 monk 2...

Mithral Breastplate means I can keep evasion...
Trading the Mount for Charge...
Is there anything I could do to make the above build more optimal...

[kamikasei]

Is there anything I could do to make the above build more optimal...

For what purpose? (Slaying 'witches', which you'll need to define? General damage-dealing? Dungeon delving?)

[Boci]

Paladin 3 / Monk 2 / Ranger 2 / Witch Slayer 5 will give you more skillpoints, favoured enemy (arcanist), track, a bonus feat in return a mount, 1 extra use of smite evil, turn undead, one 1/spell per day and an avergae of 2 hp.

[Sinfire Titan]

For what purpose? (Slaying 'witches', which you'll need to define? General damage-dealing? Dungeon delving?)

Witch Slayer is an anti-Binder Prc in Tome of Magic, not like Occult Slayer. This PrC is worth taking levels in because it has actual class features that matter. Like an At Will single-target AMF that doesn't affect the user.



Word of advice: There's a feat in FC2 that lets you make AoOs against SuAs. Grab that, then go standard Lockdown.

[herrhauptmann]

Witch Slayer is an anti-Binder Prc in Tome of Magic, not like Occult Slayer. This PrC is worth taking levels in because it has actual class features that matter. Like an At Will single-target AMF that doesn't affect the user.
Word of advice: There's a feat in FC2 that lets you make AoOs against SuAs. Grab that, then go standard Lockdown.

Check with DM, according to his interpretation, the 'detect possession' of a witchslayer will work on certain common spells as well.
My only gripe with WS momentary disjunction, is the relatively low save DC. DC 20+ cha mod I think, and it's a will save. By the time you're level 10 or so, you'll be fighting what, level 13+ wizards? Not too hard for them to make that save, especially if they've multiclassed or something that boosts their will save.

[Sinfire Titan]

Check with DM, according to his interpretation, the 'detect possession' of a witchslayer will work on certain common spells as well.
My only gripe with WS momentary disjunction, is the relatively low save DC. DC 20+ cha mod I think, and it's a will save. By the time you're level 10 or so, you'll be fighting what, level 13+ wizards? Not too hard for them to make that save, especially if they've multiclassed or something that boosts their will save.

Ability Focus, Sudden Ability Focus, and a good Cha score make it fairly high. If they are Arcane casters, there's a good chance their Wis is fairly low.

Pally of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4/Witch Slayer 5 gets a nice Save DC for the effect.

[The Glyphstone]

[QUOTE=quiet1mi;7921502]What do you guys think about the Witchslayer prestige class?

I was thinking about making a witchslayer 5 Paladin 5 monk 2...

Mithral Breastplate means I can keep evasion...
QUOTE]

There's a flaw here, even if you don't go with one of the other builds entirely. Monk's Evasion goes away in any sort of armor. It's the Swordsage, everyone's favorite Monk replacement, that gets Evasion with light armor.

[Sinfire Titan]

What do you guys think about the Witchslayer prestige class?

I was thinking about making a witchslayer 5 Paladin 5 monk 2...

Mithral Breastplate means I can keep evasion...

There's a flaw here, even if you don't go with one of the other builds entirely. Monk's Evasion goes away in any sort of armor. It's the Swordsage, everyone's favorite Monk replacement, that gets Evasion with light armor.

Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Only the Monk has that restriction. Rogues, Swordsages, and anyone who binds the Impulse Boots Soulmeld to their Feet chakra gains Evasion in Light or No Armor.

[The Glyphstone]

Only the Monk has that restriction. Rogues, Swordsages, and anyone who binds the Impulse Boots Soulmeld to their Feet chakra gains Evasion in Light or No Armor.

Yeah, thats...kinda what I said. The OP's build has 2 levels of Monk and mentioned Evasion, I was pointing out that it doesn't work that way.

[Sinfire Titan]

Yeah, thats...kinda what I said. The OP's build has 2 levels of Monk and mentioned Evasion, I was pointing out that it doesn't work that way.

Ah, I missed that part.

[Everyman]

Having only watched someone play a Witchslayer, my view's a bit limited. However, it was able to do its job well...which is to slay casters and binders. Throw in the Mage slayer feat tree for a little extra fun, and get some way to teleport around the battlefield(as a swift if possible). Witchslayers can ruin someone's day if they get the jump on their targets.

[kamikasei]

Witch Slayer is an anti-Binder Prc in Tome of Magic, not like Occult Slayer.

I assumed so, but that wasn't my question. My point was that optimizing any character requires specifying what you're optimizing for.

[herrhauptmann]

Having only watched someone play a Witchslayer, my view's a bit limited. However, it was able to do its job well...which is to slay casters and binders. Throw in the Mage slayer feat tree for a little extra fun, and get some way to teleport around the battlefield(as a swift if possible). Witchslayers can ruin someone's day if they get the jump on their targets.

6 levels in horizon walker? Dimension door 1d4 rounds I think. I'm sure there's a feat that lets you quicken the SU dim door.

[Pluto]

6 levels in horizon walker? Dimension door 1d4 rounds I think. I'm sure there's a feat that lets you quicken the SU dim door.

If your goal is to kill casters, that's a tad counterproductive, what with Anticipate Teleport and all.

[Optimystik]

It's not the anticaster silver bullet it appears to be. Though they can shut magic off magic at-will, the ability has significant drawbacks:

1) The effect is Will negates, and only if the caster fails his save does it turn off his powers. (And we all know what the strong save for 90% of casters is...)

2) It lasts just 1 round, and it's close range (30 ft.)

3) It has a cooldown of 5 rounds - and is expended even if they make their save.

4) Aside from Mettle, their other abilities are pretty mediocre - and this one's the capstone.

[herrhauptmann]

Only the Monk has that restriction. Rogues, Swordsages, and anyone who binds the Impulse Boots Soulmeld to their Feet chakra gains Evasion in Light or No Armor.

Considering it's an anti-binder PrC, I can't really see someone who's got all 5 levels in witchslayer putting a feat or level into Binder. Would fully expect the DM to throw a book at a player who did that, even if it is allowed by RAW.

If your goal is to kill casters, that's a tad counterproductive, what with Anticipate Teleport and all.

Does that work on Dimension door as well? Or only on spells with the word 'Teleport'. How about benign transposition or whatever it's called.

It's not the anticaster silver bullet it appears to be. Though they can shut magic off magic at-will, the ability has significant drawbacks:

1) The effect is Will negates, and only if the caster fails his save does it turn off his powers. (And we all know what the strong save for 90% of casters is...)

Already made that point. Was told to make a paladin of tyranny/hexblade with ability focus.
It's one of those things that's more likely to become useful if used by a higher level NPC on the party, rather than by a PC on anything but a mook.

[Boci]

Considering it's an anti-binder PrC, I can't really see someone who's got all 5 levels in witchslayer putting a feat or level into Binder. Would fully expect the DM to throw a book at a player who did that, even if it is allowed by RAW.

He's talking about soul melds, not soul binding. (And besides, why can't you study what you specialize in defeating?) Would a ranger with FE arcanist be unable to become a gish?

[Optimystik]

Considering it's an anti-binder PrC, I can't really see someone who's got all 5 levels in witchslayer putting a feat or level into Binder. Would fully expect the DM to throw a book at a player who did that, even if it is allowed by RAW.

Incarnum != Binding.

Does that work on Dimension door as well? Or only on spells with the word 'Teleport'. How about benign transposition or whatever it's called.

Those spells all have the "Teleportation" descriptor, which means Aniticipate Teleport treats them all the same way.

Already made that point. Was told to make a paladin of tyranny/hexblade with ability focus.
It's one of those things that's more likely to become useful if used by a higher level NPC on the party, rather than by a PC on anything but a mook.

No, using it against a party actually makes it far worse. You'll shut down one of their casters for one round (if you get lucky) with your uber move, then give the PCs 5 rounds free to wail on you (4 for the very caster you shut down) before you can do so again.

Notice also that the ability only interferes with spells, SLAs and Su abilities. It does not actually create an antimagic field, which means it does nothing to the target's magic items.

[Pluto]

Kinda-Sorta-Related:

Is there any printed way for a Psion to deliver a Null Psionics Field without being subject to that field?
I can't think of any, myself.

If not, Witch Slayer becomes a bit more interesting
[and I get some motivation to do a bit of homebrew.]

[Starbuck_II]

There's a flaw here, even if you don't go with one of the other builds entirely. Monk's Evasion goes away in any sort of armor. It's the Swordsage, everyone's favorite Monk replacement, that gets Evasion with light armor.

False, Monks get Rogue Evasion (light or no armor). Yes, Monks can dodge while in armor, but not get Wisdom to AC, go figure).

[herrhauptmann]

He's talking about soul melds, not soul binding. (And besides, why can't you study what you specialize in defeating?) Would a ranger with FE arcanist be unable to become a gish?

Soul melds, binding, whoops. Sorry about that.
As for the whole 'witchslayer who takes multiclasses into binding'... As a witchslayer you HATE binders, with a passion. The whole PrC is about HATING binders and other creatures who share their souls with unusual beings from the 9th dimension. I can't imagine someone who HATES binders to suddenly dip into their abilities for a small (or large) power boost. Part of the whole anti-binder, you hate people who gain easy power by making contracts with extradimensional beings. But since there's no actual wording which states a Binder can't be a Witchslayer (and vice versa), it is allowed RAW.


To risk banning by mentioning real world topics:
It's like a member of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), who is a fan of Tupac or Dr Dre because they put out some nice songs. Whole part of KKK is to hate certain races, but I don't think any given part of their crede specifies a taste in music, it's just implied with the rest of the creed.
If someone wants to debate this part, PLEASE send me a PM, the whole topic has no reason to be discussed in a gaming forum.

[arguskos]

herrhauptmann, you can make your point sans such discussions. Someone WILL debate it openly, let's just walk away now.

Kinda more on-topicish, what PrCs does the playground suggest as a more effective "witch hunter" style character? Witch Hunter itself seems to only be partially effective. Are there other, better, PrCs that do the job more effectively for a martial character?

[Sinfire Titan]

Soul melds, binding, whoops. Sorry about that.
As for the whole 'witchslayer who takes multiclasses into binding'... As a witchslayer you HATE binders, with a passion. The whole PrC is about HATING binders and other creatures who share their souls with unusual beings from the 9th dimension. I can't imagine someone who HATES binders to suddenly dip into their abilities for a small (or large) power boost. Part of the whole anti-binder, you hate people who gain easy power by making contracts with extradimensional beings. But since there's no actual wording which states a Binder can't be a Witchslayer (and vice versa), it is allowed RAW.


To risk banning by mentioning real world topics:
It's like a member of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), who is a fan of Tupac or Dr Dre because they put out some nice songs. Whole part of KKK is to hate certain races, but I don't think any given part of their crede specifies a taste in music, it's just implied with the rest of the creed.
If someone wants to debate this part, PLEASE send me a PM, the whole topic has no reason to be discussed in a gaming forum.

It's fluff from a PrC. Nothing but a little flavor alteration prevents you from having Vestiges (unlike Witchborn Binder, in the MoI).


Yes, it goes against the feel of the class. That can be changed. Perhaps it is anti-Quori (Eberron) instead of Vestiges.

[herrhauptmann]

No, using it against a party actually makes it far worse. You'll shut down one of their casters for one round (if you get lucky) with your uber move, then give the PCs 5 rounds free to wail on you (4 for the very caster you shut down) before you can do so again.

Notice also that the ability only interferes with spells, SLAs and Su abilities. It does not actually create an antimagic field, which means it does nothing to the target's magic items.

I'm well aware of the restrictions of Momentary Disjunction. But lets face it, who's more likely to succeed with the power?
A 10th level PC vs a 13th or 14th level BBEG?
Or an antagonist who is equal or greater in level to the party?
Between the two, I'm willing to bet the PC is going to be using a lower level DC against the BBEG than the BBEG is going to be using against the party.
Of course, the antagonist could well be the head of a group of witchslayers, ALL of whom have momentary disjunction.
The very basis of the CR system is going to dictate that a party is going to be facing scripted threats which are stronger than the PCs (random encounters could well be several levels weaker than the party, on account of being, you know, random encounters. But who keeps a random encounter table with a witchslayer on it?)

As to the idea that the antagonist will use his M.D. against a PC, then spend 4-5 rounds getting beat by the other PCs. Who says the antagonist is alone? Where is it stated that a PC witchslayer is going to be able to use his M.D. against a lone NPC (bbeg or not)?
My point, a PC is more likely to be using his M.D. against a higher level character. While an NPC witchslayer in conflict with the party, is likely to be higher level than a given member of the party. So a given party member is going to be needing a higher d20 roll than the NPC would to negate the M.D.


All that said, I WANT to play a witchfinder. I had one character which used the PrC (and mageslayer feats), and was stopped because the other party members kept complaining about being punished for their actions. ex: An Archer Beloved of Valerian riding her unicorn into a temple to confront an aspect of Tiamat, and losing the unicorn because it failed a save vs a breath weapon, and died. Such complaints made that DM give up on the party, AND abandon his character in my own adventure.

[The Glyphstone]

False, Monks get Rogue Evasion (light or no armor). Yes, Monks can dodge while in armor, but not get Wisdom to AC, go figure).

...You're right. That's bizzare.

[Pluto]

Kinda more on-topicish, what PrCs does the playground suggest as a more effective "witch hunter" style character? Witch Hunter itself seems to only be partially effective. Are there other, better, PrCs that do the job more effectively for a martial character?

Cleric does it best.
Between Divine Defiance, Battlemagic Perception and Mystra+AMF, it's made for this.
If Mystra's out, Ordained Champion can work too.

Of non-casters, Psigishes do it best. (This is why I was asked about NPF delivery a couple posts up)
Arcane Hunter Ranger 1/Ardent 5/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4 will do very nicely in most games.

Among non-casting non-manifesters, you're going to have some trouble.
I want to say a Master of the Nine is best suited to the task, but I wouldn't call it good for the job.

[Boci]

As for the whole 'witchslayer who takes multiclasses into binding'... As a witchslayer you HATE binders, with a passion. The whole PrC is about HATING binders and other creatures who share their souls with unusual beings from the 9th dimension. I can't imagine someone who HATES binders to suddenly dip into their abilities for a small (or large) power boost. Part of the whole anti-binder, you hate people who gain easy power by making contracts with extradimensional beings. But since there's no actual wording which states a Binder can't be a Witchslayer (and vice versa), it is allowed RAW.

I find it no more wierd than an mage slaying PrC that grants spells, like the suel archanamach.

[arguskos]

Cleric does it best.
Between Divine Defiance, Battlemagic Perception and Mystra+AMF, it's made for this.
If Mystra's out, Ordained Champion can work too.

Of non-casters, Psigishes do it best. (This is why I was asked about NPF delivery a couple posts up)
Arcane Hunter Ranger 1/Ardent 5/Slayer 10/Anarchic Initiate 4 will do very nicely in most games.

Among non-casting non-manifesters, you're going to have some trouble.
I want to say a Master of the Nine is best suited to the task, but I wouldn't call it good for the job.

Sadly, what I need must be a PrC for an organization of non-casting, non-ToB, and non-psionic martialists. Thanks though.

[Starbuck_II]

Sadly, what I need must be a PrC for an organization of non-casting, non-ToB, and non-psionic martialists. Thanks though.

Factotum with Mage Slayer feats?

[arguskos]

Factotum with Mage Slayer feats?

Again, I need a PRC specifically. I'm thinking I'll just make one for the organization, and blend Witchslayer, Occult Slayer, and Ranger into a single good whole that's worth taking, since they doesn't seem to be a single good PrC that serves the role, everything is about feats or dips, which doesn't help me much.

Though, factotum is a good class. Were my player not already a Ranger, that would be a good suggestion.