Loremaster with Mystic Theurge

[sreservoir]

Say I took MT and then later took Loremaster. Could I say the the existing class to take +1 caster level in is MT?

[Arakune]

No, you need a class with the same or similar table of spellcasting as Wizard/Sorc or Cleric for those PrC.

Before the clarification of that, there was a build that got 9th level arcane/divine and 9th psion powers. I belive it was Jack, the Indecise.

[sonofzeal]

No, you need a class with the same or similar table of spellcasting as Wizard/Sorc or Cleric for those PrC.

Before the clarification of that, there was a build that got 9th level arcane/divine and 9th psion powers. I belive it was Jack, the Indecise.

Indeed it was, and it was mine. The problem is that "spellcasting class" has never been properly defined, and the only thing preventing that sort of abuse is a kind of gentleman's agreement that, really, we should know better.

Also it's harder to get triple-9's that way than you might think, as most dual-progression classes have a really horrible epic progression, so you need to be very clever in how you balance them.

[DragoonWraith]

I actually really like having the Loremaster's class features with the dual-progression and the Mystic Theurge's requirements, though. That might be very interesting.

[sreservoir]

I actually really like having the Loremaster's class features with the dual-progression and the Mystic Theurge's requirements, though. That might be very interesting.

Wait, how do you do that?

[herrhauptmann]

Say I took MT and then later took Loremaster. Could I say the the existing class to take +1 caster level in is MT?

Pretty sure the ruling is that the PrC needs to have its own casting progression, not just "+1 of existing class". So Pious Templar and UrPriest would qualify, but not loremaster or archmage.

I worked something similar once before I was told it didn't work. Wiz and sorc, 1 level in ultimate magus. Then levels in either archivist or favored soul (reducing MAD), and tack on MT.
Take the feat "spellcasting prodigy" from FRCS for whichever casting stat I'll be doubling up on (int or cha). Trying to remember what the result was, but since I didn't use early entry cheese for MT or UM, I think I had casting at 17/15/15 or thereabouts

[DragoonWraith]

Wait, how do you do that?

You can't. But I think it would be an interesting houserule. The Mystic Theurge sucks, the Loremaster's pretty tame in terms of class features; the combination seems pretty decent. Though I think I'd probably still reduce it to somehow being 3/2 instead of 3/3 entry. Being a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 or even Wizard 3/Archivist 3 sucks compared to just being a Wizard 6, Cleric 6, or Archivist 6. Hell, Being a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 sucks, and that's the best chance you'll ever be. But adding the Loremaster features on there would help some.

[sonofzeal]

You can't. But I think it would be an interesting houserule. The Mystic Theurge sucks, the Loremaster's pretty tame in terms of class features; the combination seems pretty decent. Though I think I'd probably still reduce it to somehow being 3/2 instead of 3/3 entry. Being a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 or even Wizard 3/Archivist 3 sucks compared to just being a Wizard 6, Cleric 6, or Archivist 6. Hell, Being a Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10 sucks, and that's the best chance you'll ever be. But adding the Loremaster features on there would help some.

Honestly, I think a gradual entry would be best. Require 1 level casting in each, and advance something like 8/10 on both sides with different "dead" levels". Much more playable that way, imo.

[Devils_Advocate]

Chameleons get access to levels of arcane and divine spells at the same character levels as Mystic Theurges do, barring early entry tricks, along with actual class features. Fewer spells per day, but from any class list. No domain-only spells, but automatic knowledge of all divine spells a la Cleric.

[PhoenixRivers]

Chameleons get access to levels of arcane and divine spells at the same character levels as Mystic Theurges do, barring early entry tricks, along with actual class features. Fewer spells per day, but from any class list. No domain-only spells, but automatic knowledge of all divine spells a la Cleric.

There's only one problem with that. They don't get past level 6 spells. A bit less useful.

[Devils_Advocate]

Yeah, it's rather annoying that it's only 10 levels long, really. That's true of Mystic Theurge, too, but there are other dual casting PrCs, so that's less of a problem. I don't know why they decided that no one should have more than 10 levels in a given PrC pre-Epic. (True Necromancer is the one exception to this, if I recall correctly.) Rather a nuisance in some cases.

Still, it's fairly obvious how to extend it for 5 more levels, should one wish to do so. Let's see, in addition to BAB, saves, and spells per day continuing their progression...

11th: Aptitude focus 3/day (+6)
12th: Mimic class feature 3/day
13th: Ability boon +8
14th: Triple aptitude
15th: Aptitude focus 4/day (+6), mimic class feature 3/day

Too good, or just good enough?

[sonofzeal]

(True Necromancer is the one exception to this, if I recall correctly.)

Not the only one; I know of at least one other (Void Disciple), though you're right that they're rare.

[Fortuna]

And the Prestige paladin etc.