Dragon Question (3.5)

[Tanuki Tales]

Are there any ways to switch a True Dragon's innate sorcerer casting for Cleric casting (actual Cleric casting, not Cleric spells as Arcane Spells).

[Godskook]

95% sure you can get it. Posting before ninjas, back with book and page if I can find it.

And found it:
Draconomicon, p.89, Disspasionate Watcher of Chronepsis. Converts effective sorcerer levels into effective divine caster levels of your choice(Yes, *ANY* caster class), provided you already have levels in that class. The pre-reqs are easy for a cleric and easier for a cloistered. Alignment restriction requires you to have a neutral on one axis.

[Tanuki Tales]

95% sure you can get it. Posting before ninjas, back with book and page if I can find it.

And found it:
Draconomicon, p.89, Disspasionate Watcher of Chronepsis. Converts effective sorcerer levels into effective divine caster levels of your choice(Yes, *ANY* caster class), provided you already have levels in that class. The pre-reqs are easy for a cleric and easier for a cloistered. Alignment restriction requires you to have a neutral on one axis.

Ah. Is that PrC the only way?

Nothing like Spell-hoarding or an Eberron Sovereign or something else?

[Godskook]

Ah. Is that PrC the only way?

Nothing like Spell-hoarding or an Eberron Sovereign or something else?

Only thing I know of is PrC, but there's two more of them in there, one for Bahamut and Taimat.

Is this for a PC or a BBEG-type?

[Tanuki Tales]

Only thing I know of is PrC, but there's two more of them in there, one for Bahamut and Taimat.

Is this for a PC or a BBEG-type?

Just free form creation. Not planning on really using and won't be homebrewing anything, just having some fun doing ideas.

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, many dragons can choose from divine lists when selecting spells. Brass Dragons, for example.

[Salt_Crow]

None of the Eberron sovereign archetypes actually change the nature of draconic spellcasting. With the exception of Child of Eberron, which grants Druid spell list instead of cleric's, all archetypes either change the domain spell list (may or may not gain cleric spells though) or lose them altogether (loredrake, wyrm of war etc etc).

Also, Sacred Warder of Bahamut should have divine conversion class feature as well, so would that Ascendant thingy PrC, but I haven't got the book with me so I'm not so sure...

[Tanuki Tales]

Also, many dragons can choose from divine lists when selecting spells. Brass Dragons, for example.

No, they can cast Cleric spells as ARCANE spells.

[PhoenixRivers]

No, they can cast Cleric spells as ARCANE spells.

That does not invalidate what I said. They must choose a limited amount of spells (as a sorceror). When choosing these, they may choose from divine lists (in this case, the cleric lists for each spell level, as well as often a couple domains).

It's one thing to correct someone. It's quite another to do it when they were right to begin with.

[Tanuki Tales]

That does not invalidate what I said. They must choose a limited amount of spells (as a sorceror). When choosing these, they may choose from divine lists (in this case, the cleric lists for each spell level).

It's one thing to correct someone. It's quite another to do it when they were right to begin with.

Except you were hardly correct. {Scrubbed} I clearly stated that I was looking to give TD actual Cleric casting, not casting Cleric spells as Arcane spells, which most TDs can do.

[PhoenixRivers]

Except you were hardly correct. {Scrubbed} I was looking to give TD actual Cleric casting, not casting Cleric spells as Arcane spells, which most TDs can do.

I'd like to refer you here.

I did read your post. Rudeness is hardly called for. Other acceptable answers have been given. I expanded on that showing how other divine spells may be cast by some (not most) dragons.

For thought building exercises, this can be useful, in conjunction with other things.

For example: Exchange sorceror casting for druid casting (shown above). Use Alternate Spell source for arcane. Now you have cleric and druid spells.

While it's not exactly what you're looking for, it's quite possible to expand lists, especially if it's for the sole purpose of having a bit of fun and trying out new ideas. I believe you did say you were doing that, yes? Or was I not reading you?

And in that case, the tangental usefulness of the above is such that I felt it warranted inclusion. If I'd known that offered assistance would offend you so deeply, I'd have refrained from even attempting.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'd like to refer you here.

I did read your post. Rudeness is hardly called for. Other acceptable answers have been given. I expanded on that showing how other divine spells may be cast by some (not most) dragons.

For thought building exercises, this can be useful, in conjunction with other things.

For example: Exchange sorceror casting for druid casting (shown above). Use Alternate Spell source for arcane. Now you have cleric and druid spells.

While it's not exactly what you're looking for, it's quite possible to expand lists, especially if it's for the sole purpose of having a bit of fun and trying out new ideas. I believe you did say you were doing that, yes? Or was I not reading you?

And thank you for continuing to trudge forward when it's already clearly been said that what you're trying to give forth as an option isn't what's being looked for.
{Scrubbed}

[Runestar]

Other acceptable answers have been given.

Yours was not one of them. You presented a solution the OP explicitly stated he did not want, and when he pointed this out, you got into a hissy fit.

Seriously, what is so hard about simply admitting you misread his post and made an honest mistake? Heck, you aren't even expected to apologize!

[PhoenixRivers]

Yours was not one of them. You presented a solution the OP explicitly stated he did not want, and when he pointed this out, you got into a hissy fit.

Seriously, what is so hard about simply admitting you misread his post and made an honest mistake? Heck, you aren't even expected to apologize!

No, I did not misread his post. If the OP is disregarding options in a thought exercise, that's his choice. The option is one that has synergy with other posts stated, and I felt bore mention, even if it wasn't what the OP was looking for. He's not the only one reading this thread, he's not the only one that may be interested, and I feel that completeness is better than omission, in most cases.

[KillianHawkeye]

{Scrubbed}

Sorry for getting involved, but you don't own this thread. You posted a public topic on a public message board. You have no more right to tell other people what they can and can't post than I do. If someone is being blatantly yet politely unhelpful, then just ignore them. You can't make them shut up and you can't make them leave.

[Runestar]

You have no more right to tell other people what they can and can't post than I do.

I am not the OP, but I do empathize with him.

True, we don't have the right to dictate what others can post in public forums, but I do feel that the topic of the post pretty much determines what people should be posting.

There is certainly nothing stopping me from replying that elves get -2con in this thread, but I am sure you will agree such a response is hardly appropriate given its direction, and adds nothing of value to the discussion.

The OP wanted ways of replacing a dragon's arcane casting with clerical spellcasting, that is what he ought to be getting, not replies to some imaginary question about whether dragons can select clerical spells as arcane spells or not, much less continuing to insist that it is relevant to the original question (and to be honest, I fail to see the link anywhere).

Ask a simple and straighforward question; is it too much to expect to get concise and relevant answers?

BTW, what's that "scrubbed" tag in red supposed to mean?

[PhoenixRivers]

BTW, what's that "scrubbed" tag in red supposed to mean?

It usually refers to a moderator's hand. The forum rules elaborate more on that.

[Optimystik]

BTW, what's that "scrubbed" tag in red supposed to mean?

It means pwnage was given.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think this thread is nice and sufficiently derailed... how about some LOLcats trying to get back on track?

[Eloel]

True, we don't have the right to dictate what others can post in public forums, but I do feel that the topic of the post pretty much determines what people should be posting.

The topic is about dragons and clerical casting - and I found what I was looking for when I read through this thread, thanks to PhoenixRivers.

If the OP, or anyone else, wants a single, robotical answer, go to the RAW Q&A, that's where you get simple answers that are only trying to give answers to the asker, instead of helping the community.

When you post in a public forum that doesn't have rules and limitations on 'answer the OP only', you're not getting the 'answer the OP only' approach.

You're quite off-topic by posting elves getting -2 Con, which is neither related to dragons, nor clerical casting, the two main foci of the thread.


PS: I, by no means, want to offend the RAW Q&A, it accomplishes its' duty, which is to give definite RAW answers to people who ask.

I think this thread is nice and sufficiently derailed... how about some trying to get back on track?

[notuseful]
Adding Cleric levels to a dragon gives it clerical casting, turn undead, and domains.

[/notuseful]

[PhoenixRivers]

If you're gonna add clerical levels, may as well go all out, and add Ur-Priest levels. Better return on the investment.

[Starbuck_II]

If you're gonna add clerical levels, may as well go all out, and add Ur-Priest levels. Better return on the investment.

But then you can't have a egotistical dragon. No worshipping yourself

[PhoenixRivers]

But then you can't have a egotistical dragon. No worshipping yourself

You can't? I always thought of Ur-Priest as:
"gods, schmods. If I want what they have? I'll TAKE it."

[mostlyharmful]

You could always homebrew up a new Sovereign Archetype to do exactly what you want it to, Divine casting isn't as uber as Arcane but it's good for buffing a Gish which all dragons are automatically so I'd say it was about equal, maybe a small hit in skill points or something just to make it an actual cost?

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Less process and more substance or this thread will be locked. People are generally advised to review the Forum Rules and report, rather than engage, rules-violating posts.

[Runestar]

On a side note, what would be the advantages of a dragon having clerical spellcasting over sorc spellcasting?

1) The most obvious would be he gets access to higher lv spells sooner (since dragons typically get odd spellcasting lvs).

2) Dragons' wis score is typically the same as their cha score, so they aren't any worse off in this aspect. But this means you can't really dump wis either (making steadfast determination less useful). If you are building a dragon npc, it may also become somewhat more MAD.

3) They don't get ASF, and so can cast in armour (how often does your dragon come clad in fullplate?). But then again, mage armour is commonplace, and higher lv dragons can just as readily qualify for epic spellcasting and buff themselves with epic mage armour...

4) A different set of spells to choose from. This would obviously be far more useful to chromatic dragons who cannot choose clerical spells to begin with. But sorc spellcasting too has its own set of useful buffs, including the clearly broken wraithstrike and bite of the werebear.

5) ??? Did I miss out anything?

[Sinfire Titan]

@Runestar: Wraithstrike itself is fine (if two levels too low). Putting it on a Full BAB creature with amazing stats or Persisting it is what is broken.

[PhoenixRivers]

On a side note, what would be the advantages of a dragon having clerical spellcasting over sorc spellcasting?

1) The most obvious would be he gets access to higher lv spells sooner (since dragons typically get odd spellcasting lvs).

2) Dragons' wis score is typically the same as their cha score, so they aren't any worse off in this aspect. But this means you can't really dump wis either (making steadfast determination less useful). If you are building a dragon npc, it may also become somewhat more MAD.

3) They don't get ASF, and so can cast in armour (how often does your dragon come clad in fullplate?). But then again, mage armour is commonplace, and higher lv dragons can just as readily qualify for epic spellcasting and buff themselves with epic mage armour...

4) A different set of spells to choose from. This would obviously be far more useful to chromatic dragons who cannot choose clerical spells to begin with. But sorc spellcasting too has its own set of useful buffs, including the clearly broken wraithstrike and bite of the werebear.

5) ??? Did I miss out anything?

TBH, if I were going to swap out casting, I'd throw it to Favored Soul Progression, getting rid of (1). (2) isn't as much of an issue, I think, nor is (3).

As for the list for (4), I think that cleric spells are honestly a better fit for dragons than Sorceror/Wizard. If you use a Cleric progression, you also have to deal with a more flexible spell list, as they can reselect spells daily.