[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[Gorgondantess]

• Personal preference, I rather prefer people to include the picture without spoilers in the post, so it's easy to spot the monster entries within the thread. If need be, shrink it (re-upload to imageshack, tinypic or photobucket with photo resize during upload so it's not too large.)

• Righto. That's probably a good idea.
  

• Oslecamo is picky about this: Undead don't get class skills. They get too many other bonuses from just being undead.

[Hyudra]

See, the problem I see with this is that, without the skills, it's even more of a one trick pony.

The issue tends to be "Why would I play a skeleton/zombie/ghoul/vampire/mummy at 1st level when I could dip into Entomber?"

Well then, isn't that just as powerful as giving it class skills? I understand the point of lacking skills as a balancing mechanic, but if you're going to do that, shouldn't there be little in return?

It's more the issue of the 1st level dip. You can also tweak or bias the abilities to emphasize Entomber (and man, I keep typing that emtomber) flavor. Look at what I did with the Stone Giant. He has a racial bonus to hide, but only in areas where he's camouflaged against stone. He can also hide, but there's tradeoffs (it takes an action and requires a stony environment, but he can hide in plain sight).

What if he moved silently while burrowing, and was effectively hidden when he emerged? What if he could attack while half-burrowed (with the 'slam' in this instance being him grabbing and dragging the enemy into the ground).

how about at level 2, they must make a reflex save or be entangled, and can take a standard action to release themselves; then at 5th level, if they fail on the reflex save, they can make a fort save with +4 per size modifier they are larger than the entomber, or -4 per size modifier smaller they are than the entomber, and be entombed as the ability- so, it's a bit more realistic, and really, really hard to pull off (except maybe against a pixie or something), but you still have the ability. Because, really, it's what you take the class for.

I like the entangled bit. My only quibble with the 5th level enhancement is that it's maybe too many rolls. You've potentially got an attack roll, damage roll, reflex save & fort save, every time you attack. It might get tedious, but that's a minor complaint.

Or removed altogether. [re: Exhume]

Well, what if the Entomber could bring corpses to the surface in a burst of negative energy, or with noxious fumes that nauseate opponents?

The issue, I guess, is that it's not only useless, but highly situational. Not every fight will be in a graveyard, and combats don't generally last long enough for the Entomber to bury someone, let them die, then bring them to the surface with Exhume.

Generally speaking, the fact that the class is so bland is your license to spice it up a bit. Stick with the flavor, but feel free to add an ability or two to round it out and give it synergy.

[AustontheGreat1]

What if he moved silently while burrowing, and was effectively hidden when he emerged? What if he could attack while half-burrowed (with the 'slam' in this instance being him grabbing and dragging the enemy into the ground).

Call it "Silent as the Grave". I love abilities that have idioms as names. I'm not sure why.

[Gorgondantess]

The issue tends to be "Why would I play a skeleton/zombie/ghoul/vampire/mummy at 1st level when I could dip into Entomber?"

Ah. I'll consider that...

It's more the issue of the 1st level dip. You can also tweak or bias the abilities to emphasize Entomber (and man, I keep typing that emtomber) flavor. Look at what I did with the Stone Giant. He has a racial bonus to hide, but only in areas where he's camouflaged against stone. He can also hide, but there's tradeoffs (it takes an action and requires a stony environment, but he can hide in plain sight).

Hmmm... okay.

What if he moved silently while burrowing, and was effectively hidden when he emerged? What if he could attack while half-burrowed (with the 'slam' in this instance being him grabbing and dragging the enemy into the ground).

Good idea, I'll probably try to utilize that somehow.

I like the entangled bit. My only quibble with the 5th level enhancement is that it's maybe too many rolls. You've potentially got an attack roll, damage roll, reflex save & fort save, every time you attack. It might get tedious, but that's a minor complaint.

Actually, I was thinking of the spell defenestrating sphere when I did that; it has an attack roll, save or be knocked prone, damage, then save or be thrown into the air. This is just the opposite.

Well, what if the Entomber could bring corpses to the surface in a burst of negative energy, or with noxious fumes that nauseate opponents?

Again, good idea... though, see, exhume is to be used in conjunction with entomb- you can bring the people you've buried beneath the surface back up.
Now, what I'm thinking is with exhume he can bring them up violently- an explosion of grave dirt, flying through the air probably to take some falling damage, etc.

[Hyudra]

Actually, I was thinking of the spell defenestrating sphere when I did that; it has an attack roll, save or be knocked prone, damage, then save or be thrown into the air. This is just the opposite.

As a spell, though, it only gets used maybe once a day.

Just picture it being cast every round, and you can see where it'd get old fast.

Again, good idea... though, see, exhume is to be used in conjunction with entomb- you can bring the people you've buried beneath the surface back up.
Now, what I'm thinking is with exhume he can bring them up violently- an explosion of grave dirt, flying through the air probably to take some falling damage, etc.

Is it? I took exhume to be a flavorful way for the Entomber to collect corpses for his necromancer master.

Either way, I like the idea of bringing people violently out of the ground.

[Gorgondantess]

As a spell, though, it only gets used maybe once a day.

Just picture it being cast every round, and you can see where it'd get old fast.

It's a rounds/level spell- sortof like flaming orb.

Of course, if you really want a lot of dice, look at greater thunderclap- ever creature in a large burst radius has to make a will, reflex AND fort save.

I say just be glad that iteratives can't be made with natural attacks and leave it at that.

Is it? I took exhume to be a flavorful way for the Entomber to collect corpses for his necromancer master.

Oh... yeah, that's probably right.

[Hyudra]

Ogre

Spoiler

Show

HD:d8
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1| +0| +2|+0 |+0| Ogre body, Brute, Str+1, Con+1
2| +1| +3|+0 |+0| Brawn, Str+1, Con+1
3| +2| +3|+1 |+1| Brawler, Growth, Str+1, Con+1[/TABLE]
Skills: 4+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills are climb, intimidate, jump, listen and spot.

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and light armor.

Features:
Ogre body: At first level, the Ogre loses all other racial bonuses, and gains giant traits (primarily low-light vision) a base speed of 30 feet and a natural armor bonus equal to his own Con modifier.

Ability score increase: The Ogre gains +1 Str and +1 Con for each level in this class. At third level, the Ogre has +3 Str and +3 Con.

Brute: Starting at first level, the Ogre gets +1 hp per HD. At 10HD, this bonus changes to +2 hp per HD, applied retroactively.

Brawn: At second level, the Ogre may wield a weapon one size category larger than normal without penalty. Alternately, he may elect to wield a two handed non-reach weapon in a single hand with a -2 penalty to hit. Should the ogre so desire, he may use this ability to dual wield with a two handed weapon in each hand, but he takes the -2 penalty in addition to standard dual-wield penalties.

Brawler: At third level, the Ogre may select a feat from the list of fighter bonus feats, excepting Combat Expertise and any feats with it as a prerequisite.

Growth: At third level, the Ogre grows to large size. His AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties. In addition, he gains +10' to his move speed for a total of 40' movement.

[Mystic Muse]

So, nobody has any ideas about how to finish the Pyroclastic dragon off? Should I just edit the grammar errors and put it up for review then?

[Hyudra]

Might as well.

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, I've edited the entomber. It's a bit convoluted... but I think it's a lot better now.

[Hyudra]

• I think burrow should be 10' to start (5' is excruciatingly slow). Set the maximum to the Entomber's land speed.
• The natural armor bonus from Tomb Flesh is perhaps a bit much. You're talking DR/silver that most enemies won't be able to get around, plus Str to natural armor, plus whatever no-penalty armor he can scrounge up (mithral chain shirt) plus him being burrowed half the time.
• Entomb description could be tidied up and simplified. I'd delete all the AoE debris and the additional damage to any who are trying to free the target.
• There's a kind of contradiction in that the entomber creates a "upthrust bulge of cracked flooring material, earth, or stone", but Exhume "leav[es] behind no trace or hole."
• "The victim is treated as if pinned by an opponent (the earth) with a grappling check of (DC=10+1/2 the entomber's HD+the entomber's strength modifier)" would be easier to interpret as having a flat grappling check of (10+ 1/2 Entomber's HD + Entomber's Str) (basically delete DC= from the entry, as it's not entirely appropriate here)
• The Entomber has no mouth in the monster entry. Perhaps something including & working around this?

[Gorgondantess]

• I think burrow should be 10' to start (5' is excruciatingly slow). Set the maximum to the Entomber's land speed.

• Alrighty... though I think that just having it scale to 20 should be fine.
  

• The natural armor bonus from Tomb Flesh is perhaps a bit much. You're talking DR/silver that most enemies won't be able to get around, plus Str to natural armor, plus whatever no-penalty armor he can scrounge up (mithral chain shirt) plus him being burrowed half the time.

[Hyudra]

Frankly, I'm not sure how to work that into a powerful ability.

Doesn't have to be powerful.

I Have No Mouth and Cannot Scream: At first level, the Entomber has had its mouth stitched shut. It cannot speak, but its interactions with its master have led to it adopting a set of simple gestures it can use to communicate. The Entomber cannot speak aloud, but can communicate with any intelligent creature willing to pay attention through mimed gestures and charades.

Should the Entomber take levels in a spellcasting class, all verbal components may be considered somatic.

[Oslecamo]

Kyubi's pyroclastic dragon added to the index since you all worked so hard togheter to make it and Kyubi PMd me to take a look.

Don't get too used to it tough. Still got plenty of studying to do. Oh, and I passed my Statistical Physics exam yay!

[Hyudra]

Don't get too used to it tough. Still got plenty of studying to do. Oh, and I passed my Statistical Physics exam yay!

Congrats.

Stats was always a pain, and I could never wrap my head around physics, so statistical physics sounds like a real bother. Good stuff, man.

[Gorgondantess]

Doesn't have to be powerful.

I Have No Mouth and Cannot Scream: At first level, the Entomber has had its mouth stitched shut. It cannot speak, but its interactions with its master have led to it adopting a set of simple gestures it can use to communicate. The Entomber cannot speak aloud, but can communicate with any intelligent creature willing to pay attention through mimed gestures and charades.

Should the Entomber take levels in a spellcasting class, all verbal components may be considered somatic.

I donno... it really just seems like a completely fluff thing. I try to get rid of those as much as possible, so as to give more freedom to the player- at most, I'd include it as an optional trait.
Anyways, I cleaned it up, as it stands- how is it now? Any glaring errors?

[Hyudra]

• The entomber in the book doesn't have a good fort save. Could bump yours down to having just the good will save.
• Proficiencies is spelled wrong.
• Couldn't hurt to refer to it as a medium sized undead under "Tomb Born".
• I'm partial to listing the total benefits of the stat increases for clarity (ie. An Entomber who has taken all levels in the class has a total of +5 Str and +2 Cha).
• Greater Entombing could be reworded. It's kind of a run-on sentence that's hard to decipher. Maybe mention the floor-specific restriction in a separate sentence.
• To add to that, what if the Entomber wanted to pummel someone through a upper floor of the house and into the basement? Or through a bridge? It makes sense given what the power does, and it's odd the power doesn't allow for it.
• Exhume should specify it uses the Entomber's Cha bonus to determine distance flung. I'd replace the word "according" with "appropriate" as well.

Beyond that, looks ok.

[Lyndworm]

• The entomber in the book doesn't have a good fort save. Could bump yours down to having just the good will save.

Undead always have bad Fort saves since they auto-succeed anyway. Generally, Will is their sole good save. Your suggestions make sense from a mechanical standpoint as well as from a balance-centric point of view.

[Mystic Muse]

Although I don't feel like doing it right now, How's making the Sillit from Fiend folio sound? I'm not a big fan of the +18 level adjustment or the 7 HD in addition to that.

[Gorgondantess]

Okay, done. I think it's pretty much a completed class, at this point.

[Hyudra]

Although I don't feel like doing it right now, How's making the Sillit from Fiend folio sound? I'm not a big fan of the +18 level adjustment or the 7 HD in addition to that.

The Sillit is almost certainly a typo. I'd assume it was LA+8, not LA+18. Can't find an errata that confirms the issue.

Either way, you should be able to play a Sillit with the general Nerra class, which is already in this thread.

[Mystic Muse]

The Sillit is almost certainly a typo. I'd assume it was LA+8, not LA+18. Can't find an errata that confirms the issue.

Either way, you should be able to play a Sillit with the general Nerra class, which is already in this thread.

Oh, I thought there was a class like the Sillit. Never mind then. I'll look for something else.

Maybe Yu-anti Anathema? I think somebody asked for that one.

[imp_fireball]

What do you guys think of my stone giant? PEACH?

[Hyudra]

Oh, I thought there was a class like the Sillit. Never mind then. I'll look for something else.

Maybe Yu-anti Anathema? I think somebody asked for that one.

I think people asked for the Yuan-Ti, which was made. The Fiend Folio Anathema could stand to be made.

What do you guys think of my stone giant? PEACH?

Can't really say much more than was already said about your earlier entries. Kinda boring, imbalanced, one dimensional, gets abilities at awkward times, not terribly flavorful, mechanically off and most of all, it remains off topic here.

If you want to know why I'd label it dull, poorly balanced, one-dimensional, ill-flavored, mechanically off and awkward, ask by PM. I won't reply (and I encourage other people to avoid giving you in depth replies and debate in this thread, as well) any further in this topic & give you fuel to derail this thread yet again.

[Mystic Muse]

Hmm. Looking at the Anathema there are a few problems. There aren't really enough abilities to spread out across 18 levels. It has a couple SLAs, Constrict, poison, two immunities, two extra movement modes and a couple resistances. That's about it. As is, you could use the Yu-anti, give it two growths at certain HD, reflavor it and call it a day.

I'm going to look for something else that's a bit more unique.

EDIT: The Policy is The amount of levels is equal to the CR of the creature correct?

[Hyudra]

Hmm. Looking at the Anathema there are a few problems. There aren't really enough abilities to spread out across 18 levels. It has a couple SLAs, Constrict, poison, two immunities, two extra movement modes and a couple resistances. That's about it. As is, you could use the Yu-anti, give it two growths at certain HD, reflavor it and call it a day.

I'm going to look for something else that's a bit more unique.

EDIT: The Policy is The amount of levels is equal to the CR of the creature correct?

Just FYI: Yuan-Ti. (Not Yu-anti)

And yeah, you summed it up pretty well. Yuan-Ti Anathema could readily be a prestige class. If you include constrict & a poisonous natural attack in the prerequisites, you leave room for it to be entered as a Yuan-ti or a giant snake or whatever.

The policy is that the class gets as many levels as the creature has CR, yes.

[Mystic Muse]

Just FYI: Yuan-Ti. (Not Yu-anti)

And yeah, you summed it up pretty well. Yuan-Ti Anathema could readily be a prestige class. If you include constrict & a poisonous natural attack in the prerequisites, you leave room for it to be entered as a Yuan-ti or a giant snake or whatever.

The policy is that the class gets as many levels as the creature has CR, yes.

Okay, thank you for the clarification and for the confirmation. I am off to look for some more monsters.

[Lyndworm]

If you're looking for inspiration, both the Arrow Demon and the Astral Stalker (both from MM3) have interesting fluff and abilities. Also, I requested them a few pages back, so I'd be thrilled.

[Hyudra]

If anyone feels heroic, we could stand to have someone go through the thread and make a list of all the requests.

Probably not all of the pages, but just figuring out where Oslecamo stopped tracking it and going from there.

[Mystic Muse]

If you're looking for inspiration, both the Arrow Demon and the Astral Stalker (both from MM3) have interesting fluff and abilities. Also, I requested them a few pages back, so I'd be thrilled.

Actually, I was looking through the MM3 and Astral stalker was one of the ones I came across. I'm pretty sure somebody asked for the Boneclaw from there too so I'll look do that one sometime.

So, Astral stalker it is.