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  1. - Top - End - #721
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    wouldn't "red beard" be a more apropriate idiom?
    What's that name from? I know I've read/watched something where a character was referred to as "Redbeard"

    And by balance, I meant balanced compared to the other dragon classes.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Oy. No specific reference. But! Aren't people with "fiery hair" often refered to as "red-heads", rather that "Orange-heads" (OK, "Carrot-top" jokes aside...)? Therefore, rather than "Orange"beard, I thought "Red"beard would be more thematicly apropriate.

    [insanity]Why is my EVERY ACTION QUESTIONED? WHY CAN'T I [/Insanity] <Gargle, choke>
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  3. - Top - End - #723
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    Oy. No specific reference. But! Aren't people with "fiery hair" often refered to as "red-heads", rather that "Orange-heads" (OK, "Carrot-top" jokes aside...)? Therefore, rather than "Orange"beard, I thought "Red"beard would be more thematicly apropriate.

    [insanity]Why is my EVERY ACTION QUESTIONED? WHY CAN'T I [/Insanity] <Gargle, choke>
    Sorry.
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  4. - Top - End - #724
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Redbeard is already claimed, and their beards are orange enough.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    mm. who's got red, then?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    mm. who's got red, then?

    @ Kyuubi: sorry, I was having a bad day yesterday. excuse my insane ramblings.
    These have red.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Okay then. Does the class need editing or is it unique enough to stand on its own as a dragon? Right now, the only thing I'm questioning is the amount of SLAs when you still get spellcasting. I think pretty much everything else works but I'll leave that for you guys to decide.
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  8. - Top - End - #728
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    My inclination is to wait for Oslecamo to get back & share his perspective on the dragons.

    As it stands we've got a full BAB class with natural attacks (better than iterative attacks, especially when you get so many). Add the stat bonuses and we're now definitely better than the melee classes at melee. Lower armor, sure, but you've got WBL to spend on defenses and can dip for proficiency. I'd suggest it's borderline OP even without any special attacks (breath weapon, etc), SLAs and spellcasting.

    At 10th level you can full attack to deal:
    • Bite, +12 to hit, 1d10+2
    • Claw, +7 to hit, 1d8+1
    • Claw, +7 to hit, 1d8+1
    • Wing, +7 to hit, 1d6+1
    • Wing, +7 to hit, 1d6+1
    • Tail Slap, +7 to hit, 1d8+3

    That's assuming 10 strength at character generation, and no multiattack feat (if you take multiattack, then those +7s become +10s). This is at a level when a 10 strength barbarian will be delivering a +10 and a +4 attack. Now picture what happens when your dragon takes levels of rogue (6 attacks with which to sneak attack).

    Is it balanced against the red dragon? Close enough. Is it balanced? I don't think so, and I can't offer you a verdict until after I've heard the OPs input.

    In the meantime I might suggest fixing formatting and general polish:
    • Capitalization of ability names - ie. you've got 'Pyroclastic scales' where Scales should be capitalized, more than once in the text, hear no evil and frightful presence is uncapitalized in the table.
    • Commas for the last entry on the table - ie. see level 2 on the table, "fire/sonic breath,", ditto for Pyroclastic Scales at level 11 on the table.
    • Missing commas - Each feature or stat bonus should have a comma after it.
    • Order of ability names: Abilities of secondary importance (that you've seen before) are of lesser interest to new abilities. Ability score bonuses are of least importance and should appear last. (So instead of:
      Pyroclastic dragon SLAs +1 Charisma improved Sunder.
      you have:
      Improved Sunder, Pyroclastic Dragon SLAs, +1 Charisma
    • Periods in the table shouldn't be there. "improved Sunder.", "Gehenna Sunder."


    Just needs general proofread and attention to detail.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-20 at 10:29 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Just throwing in my two bits on the dragons, Natural attacks are generally held as incredibly inferior compared iterative attacks, even if you reach the "4 or more sweet spot". Natural attacks cost more to enchant than a regular weapon, they're harder to use against varying forms of DR and Regen and they're only truly useful if an enemy allows you to hit them with a full attack routine.

    Edit: I'd also like to say that as for the class, I think Frightful Presence should be gained earlier on. A CR 4 Wyrmling (ECL 12 using LA and RHD) gets Frightful Presence but the class doesn't give it till later on.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-06-20 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Just throwing in my two bits on the dragons, Natural attacks are generally held as incredibly inferior compared iterative attacks, even if you reach the "4 or more sweet spot". Natural attacks cost more to enchant than a regular weapon, they're harder to use against varying forms of DR and Regen and they're only truly useful if an enemy allows you to hit them with a full attack routine.
    Ok, I'll concede you that, but the stat bonuses mitigate the lack of enhancement bonuses on everything - with +6 str at later levels you're getting a +3 to attack & damage, and can get similar numbers to a +5 enhancement by buying +2 enhancements on your natural attacks.

    You've got special abilities to fall back on should you run into anything with regeneration (most of which are vulnerable to your breath weapon). That does admittedly leave DR as a problem, but as Oslecamo stated earlier in the thread, you can purchase items such as mouthpicks to bolster and allow for enhancement or special materials on your natural attacks.

    And you've still got bardish spellcasting with access to the sorc/wizard list to help cover any weaknesses.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-20 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Ok, I'll concede you that, but the stat bonuses mitigate the lack of enhancement bonuses on everything - with +6 str at later levels you're getting a +3 to attack & damage, and can get similar numbers to a +5 enhancement by buying +2 enhancements on your natural attacks.

    You've got special abilities to fall back on should you run into anything with regeneration (most of which are vulnerable to your breath weapon). That does admittedly leave DR as a problem, but as Oslecamo stated earlier in the thread, you can purchase items such as mouthpicks to bolster and allow for enhancement or special materials on your natural attacks.

    And you've still got bardish spellcasting with access to the sorc/wizard list to help cover any weaknesses.
    Well, if I remember correctly, Savage progressions don't allow normal feat gaining and ability adjustment increasing. So you're actually behind the Strength curve of any race that gives any kind of strength bonus and only 1 point ahead of those who don't.

    Erm, that's not true at all. Only Trolls (core trolls) and Wang-liangs have their regeneration trumped by fire and only Crystal Trolls have it trumped by sonic damage. Most everything else in the game that gets Regen has it to an energy type or an alignment your breath weapon doesn't cover.

    The spellcasting helps, yes, but I think that's more a mitigating bonus to cover what you lose overall.

    Edit: And while you can sink a ton of your wealth into mitigating all this even more, the Human Fighter needs to give his weapon just one +2 (if I remember correctly) enchantment to make DR a problem of the past and then he only needs to carry some cheap gear for Cou de gras.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-06-20 at 11:44 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #732

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Just to clarify some points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Edit: I'd also like to say that as for the class, I think Frightful Presence should be gained earlier on. A CR 4 Wyrmling (ECL 12 using LA and RHD) gets Frightful Presence but the class doesn't give it till later on.

    Srd says:
    Frightful Presence (Ex)

    A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Well, if I remember correctly, Savage progressions don't allow normal feat gaining and ability adjustment increasing. So you're actual behind the Strength curve of any race that gives any kind of strength bonus and only 1 point ahead of those who don't.
    Savage species gives you extra stat bonus and feats based on your HD. Since my classes are gaining an HD every level they gain those normally.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    My inclination is to wait for Oslecamo to get back & share his perspective on the dragons.
    Yes, I'm used to higher levels of power than the average and my monsters reflect that, and really a vanilla fighter/barbarian is definetely weaker than them. I expect them to play near the barbarian 2/fighter2/warblade 2/prc A X/ prc B Y . I want all levels of my monsters to be worth taking and not just a few, then jump to some hax prc. On monsters with more levels that demands increasingly stronger abilities yes.

    Now what would be wrong was if my dragons were actualy stronger than my other monster classes on average. I'm trying to keep an average power level here and if the dragons are indeed stronger then that will need to be fixed. Notice other high level monsters like the Balor and Pit Fiend wich get better stats, DR and other perks to keep up with the bigger spell slinging breathing dragons. Your giants also look more than capable to take on a dragon of same level.

    Plus, the dragon's abilities in particular aren't that sinergetic. He needs Str, Con and Cha and every turn he's meleeing it's a turn he isn't casting and vice-versa.

    Also, I agree with Bendraesar that multiple natural attacks aren't that hot at higher levels of optimization compared to one single pimped up weapon.

    goes back to study.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-06-20 at 11:50 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #733
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Yes, I'm used to higher levels of power than the average and my monsters reflect that, and really a vanilla fighter/barbarian is definetely weaker than them. I expect them to play near the barbarian 2/fighter2/warblade 2/prc A X/ prc B Y . I want all levels of my monsters to be worth taking and not just a few, then jump to some hax prc. On monsters with more levels that demands increasingly stronger abilities yes.

    Now what would be wrong was if my dragons were actually stronger than my other monster classes on average. I'm trying to keep an average power level here and if the dragons are indeed stronger then that will need to be fixed. Notice other high level monsters like the Balor and Pit Fiend wich get better stats, DR and other perks to keep up with the bigger spell slinging breathing dragons. Your giants also look more than capable to take on a dragon of same level.

    Plus, the dragon's abilities in particular aren't that sinergetic. He needs Str, Con and Cha and every turn he's meleeing it's a turn he isn't casting and vice-versa.

    Also, I agree with Bendraesar that multiple natural attacks aren't that hot at higher levels of optimization compared to one single pimped up weapon
    I was going to add something about the dragons' versatility being balanced somewhat by the economy of actions. That's fair.

    I'm inclined to think that the dragons are consistently capable of beating the giants 1v1, but that's ok, since giants are generally geared towards beating on those smaller than them (I did try to give them options against creatures of equal/larger size, but it's really not where their focus lies).

    But all in all, that makes sense. With that in mind, I'd suggest the pyroclastic dragon just needs to be tweaked in some minor ways, organized and polished. It still feels rough around the edges, and I don't think that's because of the awkward formatting and grammar errors.

  14. - Top - End - #734
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Just to clarify some points.




    Srd says:
    Frightful Presence (Ex)

    A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence.
    Check the Draconomicon, Pyroclastic Dragons have Frightful Presence from the Wyrmling stage onward.


    Savage species gives you extra stat bonus and feats based on your HD. Since my classes are gaining an HD every level they gain those normally.
    And here was where I was mistaken then. In this case, yes you do end up with a much higher strength than the average base racer before enchantments or spells, but I still doubt that it really off sets how crippling using Natural attacks as a primary form of attack is.




    Yes, I'm used to higher levels of power than the average and my monsters reflect that, and really a vanilla fighter/barbarian is definetely weaker than them. I expect them to play near the barbarian 2/fighter2/warblade 2/prc A X/ prc B Y . I want all levels of my monsters to be worth taking and not just a few, then jump to some hax prc. On monsters with more levels that demands increasingly stronger abilities yes.

    Now what would be wrong was if my dragons were actualy stronger than my other monster classes on average. I'm trying to keep an average power level here and if the dragons are indeed stronger then that will need to be fixed. Notice other high level monsters like the Balor and Pit Fiend wich get better stats, DR and other perks to keep up with the bigger spell slinging breathing dragons. Your giants also look more than capable to take on a dragon of same level.

    Plus, the dragon's abilities in particular aren't that sinergetic. He needs Str, Con and Cha and every turn he's meleeing it's a turn he isn't casting and vice-versa.
    Just want to say here, that while balance is understandable and all, it's kind of asinine. You shouldn't try to force balance on creatures that are inherently superior than most other creatures, its just the way the game world works. Balors and Pit Fiends are always going to smash most other equal CR creatures and Higher CR dragons will tend to dominate against anything that isn't Incorporeal or has Shivering Touch prepared.

    Heck, even other Dragons are more powerful than each other. If you make a Dragon class that is more powerful than a different one, did you fail? No. Because the game isn't all about who's more powerful or who could crush who in a straight fight. Some Dragons may be more useful in a straight crunch fight with a big foe, some may be more useful in a social setting and some may be more useful as a merchant. Are any of these more inferior than the other because one is better at fighting? No.

    Just look at the base classes. Does everyone play a Wizard and a Psion and a Factotum because they're better at doing everything all the time? No. People like to play Rogues, people like to play Fighters; heck people like to play Monks, Paladins and, heavens forbid, Truenamers.

    So don't feel terrible or like you've failed your job because one breed of dragon crushes all over another.



    goes back to study.
    Good luck.


    Edit: I'd also like to note that the highest CRed creature in 3.5 is a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon if I remember correctly.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-06-20 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendraesar View Post
    Just want to say here, that while balance is understandable and all, it's kind of asinine. You shouldn't try to force balance on creatures that are inherently superior than most other creatures, its just the way the game world works. Balors and Pit Fiends are always going to smash most other equal CR creatures and Higher CR dragons will tend to dominate against anything that isn't Incorporeal or has Shivering Touch prepared.

    Heck, even other Dragons are more powerful than each other. If you make a Dragon class that is more powerful than a different one, did you fail? No. Because the game isn't all about who's more powerful or who could crush who in a straight fight. Some Dragons may be more useful in a straight crunch fight with a big foe, some may be more useful in a social setting and some may be more useful as a merchant. Are any of these more inferior than the other because one is better at fighting? No.

    Just look at the base classes. Does everyone play a Wizard and a Psion and a Factotum because they're better at doing everything all the time? No. People like to play Rogues, people like to play Fighters; heck people like to play Monks, Paladins and, heavens forbid, Truenamers.

    So don't feel terrible or like you've failed your job because one breed of dragon crushes all over another.
    Have to disagree here. Remember, these aren't just monsters. They're classes.

    There's no good reason to ignore balance, and many good reasons to give it careful attention; Problems tend to arise in a group when there's imbalance between characters. You want every character to have equal opportunity to be awesome, and having one struggle just to keep par with the others is going to -whether consciously realized or not- negatively affect the group dynamic. Some people do play the weak classes like truenamer and whatnot, whether through ignorance or a desire to play the underdog, but generally speaking, your players are going to be happiest if there's a selection of equally viable possibilities.

    In this case, the monsters are also PCs. Whether it's a person who was transformed into a dragon and is still learning the ropes, or a dragon that's almost but not fully grown into the next size category, the monsters tend to develop at a steady rate.

    As far as this homebrew is concerned, there should be parity between a monster at a given stage of the game (at level X) and other monsters or classes at the same stage. If not, issues tend to arise, not least of which is DMs looking at (for example) the pyroclastic dragon and saying "That's too powerful. We're not using this homebrew."

    To make an entry effective and justifiable, it has to be both interesting and balanced. If not, then you haven't designed it right. There's little value in designing something that isn't balanced.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-20 at 12:44 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Plus, dragons being stronger than other dragons is a function of their CR.

    A Prismatic Dragon is stronger than a Gold Dragon. The Prismatic has CR 66 while the gold has CR 25. So their classes (all the way to great wyrm) should have 66 levels and 25 levels, respectively.

    That said, a level 25 Prismatic Dragon and a level 25 Gold Dragon should be equal in terms of power. The difference being that the prismatic has yet to reach the apex of his draconic potence while the gold already must reach out for some multiclassing.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Oh, then shall we compare a Level 25 Wizard and a Level 25 Fighter?

    Or better yet, why not compare a Level 66 Wizard and a Level 66 Truenamer.

    Since you want to use the term class for these monsters then not only do you need to compare them to each other but to the other base classes and PrCs that exist in the game.

    Edit: And I highly doubt most of the classes here really compare well to Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes.

    My whole point is that if you're going to look at this from a sheer mechanical perspective then you might as well just go rewrite all of DnD period because there exists huge disparities everywhere, even between things of equal level that are "supposed to be balanced".

    Edit: Of course you could as well argue that just because the game isn't balanced explicitly with everything within it doesn't mean you'll add to this. But then you just lose a feeling of verisimilitude when all the monster classes pan out even with each other.
    Last edited by Tanuki Tales; 2010-06-20 at 02:01 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    My whole point is that if you're going to look at this from a sheer mechanical perspective then you might as well just go rewrite all of DnD period because there exists huge disparities everywhere, even between things of equal level that are "supposed to be balanced".
    That's defeatist.

    If stuff is imbalanced, it's up to the DM and the group to accomodate that. Some don't care, others will houserule stuff up the ying-yang. That doesn't mean you just break balance from the get go when implementing homebrew. That just introduces problems for those who don't know better and turns away those who do care. It'd be nice if people could introduce this work to their DM without getting turned away because it's screwed up balance-wise.

    Dragons and Giants probably don't compare to wizards and archivists, true. They probably could hold their own in a group with a crusader or duskblade, though. Tier 3 is a good point to aim for.

    I find it odd that you define monsters like dragons by virtue of their mechanics. Like, they have to be better than everything else of their level or they aren't dragonish enough.

    Whatever the case, let's not derail this thread too much. If you're interested in discussing it further, we could make a thread in the general roleplaying discussion forum.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-20 at 02:11 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    That's defeatist.

    If stuff is imbalanced, it's up to the DM and the group to accomodate that. Some don't care, others will houserule stuff up the ying-yang. That doesn't mean you just break balance from the get go when implementing homebrew. That just introduces problems for those who don't know better and turns away those who do care. It'd be nice if people could introduce this work to their DM without getting turned away because it's screwed up balance-wise.

    Dragons and Giants probably don't compare to wizards and archivists, true. They probably could hold their own in a group with a crusader or duskblade, though. Tier 3 is a good point to aim for.

    I find it odd that you define monsters like dragons by virtue of their mechanics. Like, they have to be better than everything else of their level or they aren't dragonish enough.

    Whatever the case, let's not derail this thread too much. If you're interested in discussing it further, we could make a thread in the general roleplaying discussion forum.
    I'd rather not, there are some aggravating people on that subforum and I find the moderating of this site pretty distasteful.

    I'll just end it here as suggested, but I will say that True Dragons tend to be not only more powerful then others of the Dragon type pound for pound but also most other monsters.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Right, but let's strive for balance anyways, while trying to keep the flavor and verisimilitude of the dragon (and other under-CR'ed monsters) intact.

    Moving on... I'll be tweaking the remaining giants to fit their max level to their max CR soon, and I was thinking of doing some other LA races. Maybe Aasimar, Tiefling (the LA ones) and Kuo-Toa?
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-20 at 02:56 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Right, but let's strive for balance anyways, while trying to keep the flavor and verisimilitude of the dragon (and other under-CR'ed monsters) intact.

    Moving on... I'll be tweaking the remaining giants to fit their max level to their max CR soon, and I was thinking of doing some other LA races. Maybe Aasimar, Tiefling (the LA ones) and Kuo-Toa?
    Aasimar and Tieflings are pretty playable though and their LA is easily bought off if you're using the buy off rule. Do they really need a class?

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Could somebody do the Mindflayer, Psionic variant from the Expanded Psionic Handbook?
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    There est haud perturbatio, illic est hunger.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I know its my third request so I apologize, but I'd personally like to see a Curst template class that makes it more then a poor man's d20 Revenant template.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroticPunch View Post
    Could somebody do the Mindflayer, Psionic variant from the Expanded Psionic Handbook?
    Um, there is already the mind flayer class, and it has psionics.
    Last edited by demidracolich; 2010-06-20 at 09:09 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Adapting the existing mind flayer to the psionic variant would simply be a matter of removing the psionic spell-like abilities and substituting them for actual Manifesting as a psion 1 level lower than the mind flayer itself (so starting at level 2).

    This would, of course, require the removal of the disclaimer in the Telepathy ability, about Mind flayer levels stacking with actual manifester levels, and just make it so that taking further psion levels advances the manifesting the same way it happens with spellcasting monsters such as the Rakshasa, by stacking.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I'd suggest the pyroclastic dragon just needs to be tweaked in some minor ways, organized and polished. It still feels rough around the edges, and I don't think that's because of the awkward formatting and grammar errors.
    Tweaked as in less powerful or tweaked as in a few more odds and ends in terms of abilities?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    If you are still taking requests, could you please do a progression for the Entomber from the Libris Mortis? I would be forever grateful

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Right then... Who wants to make an Atropal class for uncle Tygre?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I like these so much, I think I'll do one, just for fun.

    Entomber (Edited! Again!)

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    HD:d12
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1 | +0 | +0|+0 |+2| Tomb Born, Str+1
    2| +1| +0|+0 |+3 | Lesser Entombing, Str+1, Cha +1
    3| +1| +1|+1| +3| Tomb Flesh, Str+1
    4| +2| +1| +1|+4 | Greater Entombing, Str+1, Cha +1
    5| +2| +1| +1| +4| Exhume, Str+1

    [/TABLE]
    Skills: 2+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills: None.

    Proficiencies: Simple weapons and it's natural weapons.

    Features:
    Tomb Born: An entomber loses all other racial modifiers and gains the following undead traits:
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    * No Constitution score.
    * Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    * Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
    * Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
    * Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
    * Heals naturaly.
    * Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
    * Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
    * Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
    * Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

    * Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

    The entomber is a medium sized undead, with 1 natural slam attack dealing 1d6 damage and base speed 30. Any and all class levels have their HD converted to D12s.
    In addition, the entomber gains a natural armor bonus equal to its strength modifier.


    Ability score increase: The entomber gains a bonus to strength at each level, and a bonus to charisma at levels 2 and 4, for a total of +2 charisma and +5 strength by level 5.

    Lesser Entombing: When an entomber succeeds on a slam attack, the opponent must make a reflex save (DC=1/2 entomber's HD+Cha modifier) or be partially driven into the ground; the opponent is considered entangled, and can free itself by making a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Tomb Flesh: The entomber gains DR/Silver equal to one half his HD. In addition, he gains a burrow speed of 10. The burrow speed increases by 5 every 3 additional HD (15 at 6, 20 at 9, etc) to a maximum of the entomber's base land speed.
    A burrowing entomber gains a circumstance bonus to move silently equal to its HD, and if it surfaces next to an enemy that is unaware of its presence, the enemy is considered flat footed and takes a -2 modifier to its saves vs. the entomber's entombing ability.

    Greater Entombing (su): Now when the entomber succeeds on a slam attack, if the foe does not succeed on its reflex save, the foe may be literally entombed in the ground. If the ground has a hardness of 8 or lower, the foe must make a fortitude save (DC=1/2 entomber's HD+Cha modifier plus 4 for every step larger than the opponent the entomber is, or minus 4 for every step smaller) or be pummeled into the ground.
    The upthrust bulge of cracked flooring material, earth, or stone reveals the location of the victim to compatriots. Two standard actions spent clearing away the broken flooring material reveals the entombed victim, who can use his or her next action to stand from a prone (and dusty) position. Attempting to rescue a friend in this way can provoke attacks of opportunity.
    The victim is treated as if pinned by an opponent (the earth) with a grappling check of 10+1/2 the entomber's HD+the entomber's strength modifier. Breaking free of first the “pin” and then the “grapple” allows the victim to stand from a prone position on his or her next round.
    If compatriots of the victim have partially cleared away the covering material, then the victim need only make a single check before standing from the prone position. Each round the victim spends fully or partially entombed is a round in which the victim suffocates (see Suffocation, page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).
    If there is a space below the ground, the victim is instead simply knocked through to the other side.

    Exhume (su): The entomber may spend a standard action to cause a body buried up to 10 feet below the ground within 30 feet from its location to rise to the surface.
    If this was a creature the entomber buried or "entombed", he may instead cause it to rise to the surface as a swift action.
    In addition, instead of letting it simply rise to the surface, he may have it explode out of the ground, flying a number of feet in the air equal to 10x its Charisma modifier, and the hapless victim takes appropriate falling damage upon striking the ground.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-06-27 at 07:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Frost Giant
    Continuing my efforts to revise my Giants so the max level of the monster class equals their CR. Frost Giant is a CR9 class so...
    • June 26, 11:22am - Started process of making Frost Giant a 9 level class.
    • June 26, 12:36am - Specified that Icy Weapon constitutes an enhancement bonus and doesn't stack with other enhancement bonuses.
    • June 26, 12:36am - Moved Rime to ninth level. Gave it a small bump up in power, so enemies who have lost 50% or more of their dexterity shatter on reaching 0 hp.
    • June 26, 12:36am - Added new seventh and eighth level abilities. Shiverguard lets the giant shatter the enemy's blades as they bounce off his armor/hide, while Harbinger of Ragnarök lets him howl continuously, compelling destruction and disaster.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Tweaked as in less powerful or tweaked as in a few more odds and ends in terms of abilities?
    Tweaked as in giving it more flow. As it stands it feels very piecemeal. It doesn't feel like something I'd see in the Dragon Magazine of yesteryear, or a WotC book. Some of the ability names (Gehenna Sunder) feel a bit off, and I don't know that it has synergy between class abilities.

    Why don't you start with the general polish? Fix the stuff like capitalization and order of abilities in the table? The stuff I listed in a post a half page up (second half of post #729). It may be that my interpretation of the class is being thrown off by general presentation. I dunno.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I like these so much, I think I'll do one, just for fun.

    Entomber
    Alrighty, let's take a look...
    • Personal preference, I rather prefer people to include the picture without spoilers in the post, so it's easy to spot the monster entries within the thread. If need be, shrink it (re-upload to imageshack, tinypic or photobucket with photo resize during upload so it's not too large.).
    • Oslecamo is picky about this: Undead don't get class skills. They get too many other bonuses from just being undead.
    • If you want to make it a passable stealth type, I'd recommend make it an ability gained after 1st level, that adds appropriate bonuses.
    • You've fallen into the trap of including unnecessary ability score increases. The wisdom bonuses aren't needed nor are they particularly appropriate. Remember, he's not having to spend points (or conversely, can dump his lowest roll) on Con, so his stats will be much higher overall.
    • Knocking opponents prone is a pretty big deal, since it generally opens them up to being knocked prone again as they try to get up. The Entomber is effectively, at level 3, better than a trip warrior. Something to counterbalance this is recommended. It's arguably better than a Hill Giant's Smash (which only works on smaller opponents and stuns rather than knocks opponents prone).
    • I might suggest something that half-buries the opponent, to keep with the flavor. What if the third level ability only buried them up to their knees, and prevented their movement until they could free themselves?
    • DR is generally half-HD, not equal to HD. Further, abilities should scale all the way to 20th, so base it on HD, not class levels.
    • Entomb is, at 5th level, rather strong. It's also a tad unrealistic, since an opponent with low-ish reflex saves may be disproportionately big. Does it make sense for an entomber to bury a huge Red Dragon with a slam attack? This isn't a problem in the monster entry since it's assumed the entomber will be fighting PCs, but as a PC, it should be fighting monsters. What if the ability worked in stages? Subsequent slam attacks further bury the opponent, until they're fully entombed?
    • DC to break free of the emtombment should probably scale.
    • Wouldn't hurt if burrow scaled. More burrow speed with more HD.
    • Exhume is more or less useless to the Entomber. It's flavorful, but doesn't really do anything, and is fairly useless to an Entomber PC. Should be spiced up a bit, I think.


    It's a difficult class to work out as it really is a one trick pony, and that one trick is rather powerful. Most combats would devolve to the most threatening opponent being buried, and they'd climb out of the earth only to get buried again in short order.

    Add a level or three of dread necromancer to the Entomber (flavorful and brokenly good) and the Entomber would be able to buff its attacks, heal itself to maximum health whenever the threat was buried, and manage minions. It's pretty much zero-effort optimization.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-06-26 at 01:41 PM.

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