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  1. - Top - End - #811
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    Traditionally the lich template can only be appied to humanoids, but with lich-feinds and dracoliches showing up it seemed an unnessesary restriction. So yeah, I guess anything alive that meets the prerequisites can take the monster class
    Okay. Just wondering.

    Now I just have to convince my DM to let me ride a Dracolich as my Paladin mount.Not going to happen. I'm using the Pyroclastic from here. I'll tell you guys how it goes.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-07-04 at 01:40 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #812
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    The Half-illithid
    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    The Kaorti
    awwwwww, yeah.
    too bad Kaorti doesn't count as humanoid, but... That is awsome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Now I just have to convince my DM to let me ride a Dracolich as my Paladin mount.
    You'd have to be an evil palidin... you know, lich=evil?
    Although glad your not. I saw.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    So nobody wants to do Arcanaloch?
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  4. - Top - End - #814
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by flabort View Post
    You'd have to be an evil palidin... you know, lich=evil?
    Not the template in here as far as I can tell. I think there are also good aligned Liches in 3.5 but I may be wrong about that.

    I'm just happy to have my Pyroclastic dragon mount. She's too awesome to turn into a Lich.

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroticPunch View Post
    So nobody wants to do Arcanaloch?
    Do it yourself. I know that can be considered offensive if used in the wrong tone so I'm putting a disclaimer. I'm not trying to be offensive. It's just the more people we have working on classes the better!
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  5. - Top - End - #815
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Just pointing out a potential issue in the Kaorti - Use of another method of redistributing ability scores can and would allow the Kaorti to easily boost stats to incredible levels. The wording is just somewhat ambiguous.

    I note the -4 cap, which is good thinking, but I can see unscrupulous players engineering some method of stacking stats. Perhaps by losing the class level/ability, then regaining it, restacking. Rinse, repeat.

    Also, I'd be concerned that having thralls is basically a better or alternate version of the leadership feat, having cohorts that don't necessarily have a level cap (and potentially multiple cohorts).

    The class isn't bad, though, and could likely go ahead as is. It's not too bad as a minmaxing class, since you lose spells known/per day and/or sneak attack if you go for levels in rogue or whatever, but gain the stat increase. I'd say that it needed a bit of tweaking to prevent abuse and perhaps some more scaling (perhaps the stat shift cap could change as you get more HD?).
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-05 at 12:50 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #816
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Just pointing out a potential issue in the Kaorti - Use of another method of redistributing ability scores can and would allow the Kaorti to easily boost stats to incredible levels. The wording is just somewhat ambiguous.

    I note the -4 cap, which is good thinking, but I can see unscrupulous players engineering some method of stacking stats. Perhaps by losing the class level/ability, then regaining it, restacking. Rinse, repeat.

    Also, I'd be concerned that having thralls is basically a better or alternate version of the leadership feat, having cohorts that don't necessarily have a level cap (and potentially multiple cohorts).

    The class isn't bad, though, and could likely go ahead as is. It's not too bad as a minmaxing class, since you lose spells known/per day and/or sneak attack if you go for levels in rogue or whatever, but gain the stat increase. I'd say that it needed a bit of tweaking to prevent abuse and perhaps some more scaling (perhaps the stat shift cap could change as you get more HD?).
    the kaorti's thralls' combined HD cannot be more than the kaorti's total HD. the wording might have been a bit vague but the followers gained are difinitely less than those gained through leadership.

    the stat redistrubution Does increase. the cap doesn't change, but the rate of exchange increases at 10HD and 20HD.

    There was a bit of new stuff I tried for this class, so its good to have some advice

    Edit: also does anyone have any thoughts on he items I included? I know this thread is about monster classes, but I thought they would help a Kaorti character deal with the material vulnerability and make the class more playable
    Last edited by Crafty Cultist; 2010-07-05 at 01:51 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #817
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    the kaorti's thralls' combined HD cannot be more than the kaorti's total HD. the wording might have been a bit vague but the followers gained are difinitely less than those gained through leadership.
    Well, no, I'm not talking followers. A thrall is closer to a cohort. I mean, a cohort has a level of -2 less than the player. While HD doesn't come into it, you've still got a level 8 cohort for a level 10 player. A thrall, however, can have a lone level 10 cohort for a level 10 player.

    If you really want to complicate matters, you can have a contingent of low level thralls with expensive wands, and win by sheer number of actions.

    My bad on forgetting that you capped it at HD, so it's at least reined in some, but I don't think modeling a 1st level ability off of leadership, even nerfing it, is a good idea.

    the stat redistrubution Does increase. the cap doesn't change, but the rate of exchange increases at 10HD and 20HD.
    I meant changing the cap, so it's more gradual. 20th level is a long way off, and a Kaorti1/whateverX is going to have that one level in Kaorti for a long while, and potentially suffer powerwise for it during levels 3-9 and 13-19.

    Edit: also does anyone have any thoughts on he items I included? I know this thread is about monster classes, but I thought they would help a Kaorti character deal with the material vulnerability and make the class more playable
    I don't know that the items are necessary. There are kaorti items in an issue of Dragon magazine, I believe. The Kaorti ribbon dagger among them. Crystalkeep probably has it under the exotic weapons.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Well, no, I'm not talking followers. A thrall is closer to a cohort. I mean, a cohort has a level of -2 less than the player. While HD doesn't come into it, you've still got a level 8 cohort for a level 10 player. A thrall, however, can have a lone level 10 cohort for a level 10 player.

    If you really want to complicate matters, you can have a contingent of low level thralls with expensive wands, and win by sheer number of actions.

    My bad on forgetting that you capped it at HD, so it's at least reined in some, but I don't think modeling a 1st level ability off of leadership, even nerfing it, is a good idea.
    Well the thralls were intended to be similar to a druids animal companion. would one thrall with a max HD be better?

    Edit: with the ability redistribution, I considered changing the HD at which it increases to eight and sixteen. would that work better?

    Edit again: how about a single creature with HD equal the kaorti's HD-2, with the HD cap increased by 3 if the thrall has an intellegence score of 2 or lower?
    Last edited by Crafty Cultist; 2010-07-05 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #819
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    Well the thralls were intended to be similar to a druids animal companion. would one thrall with a max HD be better?

    Edit: with the ability redistribution, I considered changing the HD at which it increases to eight and sixteen. would that work better?

    Edit again: how about a single creature with HD equal the kaorti's HD-2, with the HD cap increased by 3 if the thrall has an intellegence score of 2 or lower?
    The trouble with thralls is that it's implied that your thralls can be humanoid, speak (and therefore activate magic items), gain experience and gain levels in whatever class. They're more like cohorts than animal companions.

    And again, animal companions aren't the high point of D&D's balance any more than cohorts are. Gaining extra actions in combat is a huge deal, and such tends to unbalance the game.

    Is the kaorti infection so essential? If it's a must have, perhaps you could go with something like:
    • One thrall to start.
    • You can have one extra thrall for every 10HD.
    • Each thrall must have 3 or less intelligence (or changes to have 3 or less intelligence and loses all class levels in the transformation).
    • Each thrall has a maximum HD of 3/4 your current HD prior to the kaorti level. At 1st level, you can elect to use creatures with 3/4 or less CR (ie Kobold, dog).
    • You can release a thrall, whereupon they can gain (or reacquire old) levels, gain experience and act for themselves. They're no longer subservient to you, but are always friendly.


    This hits the high points. It's unique, it's not too powerful, it lets you further the kaorti invasion without having too many intelligent minions.

    I dunno, though. I can't think of an existing companion/minion/cohort situation that doesn't make a character too powerful. Familiar? It'd be hard to model something like that on the familiar.

  10. - Top - End - #820
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    The trouble with thralls is that it's implied that your thralls can be humanoid, speak (and therefore activate magic items), gain experience and gain levels in whatever class. They're more like cohorts than animal companions.

    And again, animal companions aren't the high point of D&D's balance any more than cohorts are. Gaining extra actions in combat is a huge deal, and such tends to unbalance the game.

    Is the kaorti infection so essential? If it's a must have, perhaps you could go with something like:
    • One thrall to start.
    • You can have one extra thrall for every 10HD.
    • Each thrall must have 3 or less intelligence (or changes to have 3 or less intelligence and loses all class levels in the transformation).
    • Each thrall has a maximum HD of 3/4 your current HD prior to the kaorti level. At 1st level, you can elect to use creatures with 3/4 or less CR (ie Kobold, dog).
    • You can release a thrall, whereupon they can gain (or reacquire old) levels, gain experience and act for themselves. They're no longer subservient to you, but are always friendly.


    This hits the high points. It's unique, it's not too powerful, it lets you further the kaorti invasion without having too many intelligent minions.

    I dunno, though. I can't think of an existing companion/minion/cohort situation that doesn't make a character too powerful. Familiar? It'd be hard to model something like that on the familiar.
    How about if only thralls of animal intellegence can be controlled? that way they can't gain levels. Kaorti can transform ay living creature, but for the sake of balance we could say that intellegent thralls act independently and will generally head toward the nearest cyst rather than accompany their creator. With the ability to control thralls I was aiming to give the frail Kaorti a bodyguard to protect them so limiting it to animals and vermin might make the abiliy less abusable
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

  11. - Top - End - #821
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    How about if only thralls of animal intellegence can be controlled? that way they can't gain levels. Kaorti can transform ay living creature, but for the sake of balance we could say that intellegent thralls act independently and will generally head toward the nearest cyst rather than accompany their creator. With the ability to control thralls I was aiming to give the frail Kaorti a bodyguard to protect them so limiting it to animals and vermin might make the abiliy less abusable
    That would be a simpler way of putting it. I'd still put a cap (and not = to your HD), though.

  12. - Top - End - #822
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    That would be a simpler way of putting it. I'd still put a cap (and not = to your HD), though.
    I was thinking one thrall with a HD cap slightly higher than the Kaorti's HD, since HD for animals and vermin tends to increase faster than CR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I seem to recall the Kaorti as having an absurdly high bonus to jump and no height limit.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkkwalker View Post
    I seem to recall the Kaorti as having an absurdly high bonus to jump and no height limit.
    The only skill bonus kaorti have is to heal checks. are you thinking of something else? maybe thri-kreen or something?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    I was thinking one thrall with a HD cap slightly higher than the Kaorti's HD, since HD for animals and vermin tends to increase faster than CR
    Can't shake the notion, though, that a smart player would find a ridiculously good thrall to convert. The only one that immediately sprung to mind was Bulette (9 HD, tremorsense, scent, and four +15 claw attacks for +2d6+Str each, high stats), but even a low level PC wouldn't shy away from Carrion Crawler (3HD, 1 int, 8 tentacle attacks each potentially inflicting paralysis, plus bite.

    Or, hmm... Ankheg (not as good as carrion crawler, but high nat armor, improved grab, spit acid etc.). Failing that, there's always the dire line of animals (Dire wolf for auto-trip?).

    It's ambiguous whether the kaorti level would strip away these natural abilities (paralysis, bite), but even so, there's always a potential for players to just take thralls with stats far above and beyond what their HD would normally allow.

  16. - Top - End - #826

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    It's ambiguous whether the kaorti level would strip away these natural abilities (paralysis, bite), but even so, there's always a potential for players to just take thralls with stats far above and beyond what their HD would normally allow.
    I must however point out that the best thrall combinations won't just fall from the skies to the kaorti feet. He has no means by himself to summon the "best" thralls. He would need to actively search for them using other means, and that it's something everybody can do. A bard can go around charm monstering and dominating slaves. Even a fighter can pump his handle animal and, using Arms and Equipment guide, get stuff like purple wurms as pets.

    So, yes, the potential for a super thrall is there, but considering that you'll need to actualy go out there, find it and catch it yourself balances it out. A druid can replace lost animal companions in 24 hours for free, a kaorti can only do that if he happens to be in an area filled with suitable monsters. It's quite easy for the DM to stop any abuse by simply claiming that no, there aren't carrion crawlers nearby. You'll have to do with those kobolds.

    Also, nonhumanoids get the pseudo natural template, not an kaorti level, so they keep their racial traits. However that kaorti level counts as one HD, so you can at best enslave one humanoid wich had one less HD than you before you bited it.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I've changed the Kaorti's thrall control to only affect creatures with an intellegence of 2 or lower. that should prevent the ability being too abusable
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  18. - Top - End - #828
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I must however point out that the best thrall combinations won't just fall from the skies to the kaorti feet. He has no means by himself to summon the "best" thralls. He would need to actively search for them using other means, and that it's something everybody can do. A bard can go around charm monstering and dominating slaves. Even a fighter can pump his handle animal and, using Arms and Equipment guide, get stuff like purple wurms as pets.

    So, yes, the potential for a super thrall is there, but considering that you'll need to actualy go out there, find it and catch it yourself balances it out. A druid can replace lost animal companions in 24 hours for free, a kaorti can only do that if he happens to be in an area filled with suitable monsters. It's quite easy for the DM to stop any abuse by simply claiming that no, there aren't carrion crawlers nearby. You'll have to do with those kobolds.

    Also, nonhumanoids get the pseudo natural template, not an kaorti level, so they keep their racial traits. However that kaorti level counts as one HD, so you can at best enslave one humanoid wich had one less HD than you before you bited it.
    I'll concede that (I don't recall seeing the pseudonatural bit in my first read-through, it may be new?), but I think that it's nonetheless a problematic ability. The fact that it's not necessarily reliable doesn't really take away from the fact that it's a level 1 ability that can potentially break the game.

    Figure a given PC has 13.3 encounters a level. In the 250-ish encounters as a PC works their way towards 20th level, I'm sure they'll run into more than a couple of low-int, lowish-HD, high-power critters to take over. You're also putting the DM in a position of having to consider each and every encounter as a potential issue. As a DM, if I were asked to review this homebrew and decide whether a player could run it, I think that ability would get a 'no' from me, because of potential abuse, issues and extra hassle on my part.

    Put simply, it's a class feature that basically says "You get another character on the battlefield." That never works well.

    That aside, I fear it's too open ended, when a player could have a pseudonatural carrion crawler, rust monster, red dragon (acquired after lowering int via. ray of stupidity), or bullette on the battlefield.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-06 at 01:52 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I'll concede that (I don't recall seeing the pseudonatural bit in my first read-through, it may be new?), but I think that it's nonetheless a problematic ability. The fact that it's not necessarily reliable doesn't really take away from the fact that it's a level 1 ability that can potentially break the game.

    Figure a given PC has 13.3 encounters a level. In the 250-ish encounters as a PC works their way towards 20th level, I'm sure they'll run into more than a couple of low-int, lowish-HD, high-power critters to take over. You're also putting the DM in a position of having to consider each and every encounter as a potential issue. As a DM, if I were asked to review this homebrew and decide whether a player could run it, I think that ability would get a 'no' from me, because of potential abuse, issues and extra hassle on my part.

    Put simply, it's a class feature that basically says "You get another character on the battlefield." That never works well.

    That aside, I fear it's too open ended, when a player could have a pseudonatural carrion crawler, rust monster, red dragon (acquired after lowering int via. ray of stupidity), or bullette on the battlefield.
    Would restricting it to animals and vermin be more apropriate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    Would restricting it to animals and vermin be more apropriate?
    I think it might. I don't know a lot about Kaorti flavor though, so may be taking away from that.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I think it might. I don't know a lot about Kaorti flavor though, so may be taking away from that.
    Even restricting it to animals, the kaorti will still be able to corrupt beings with madness and send them against their foes. if they want intellegent minions they'll need to transform creatures then mantain their loyalty through roleplaying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I'll concede that (I don't recall seeing the pseudonatural bit in my first read-through, it may be new?), but I think that it's nonetheless a problematic ability. The fact that it's not necessarily reliable doesn't really take away from the fact that it's a level 1 ability that can potentially break the game.
    Well it's low enough "potential" to satisfy me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Figure a given PC has 13.3 encounters a level. In the 250-ish encounters as a PC works their way towards 20th level, I'm sure they'll run into more than a couple of low-int, lowish-HD, high-power critters to take over. You're also putting the DM in a position of having to consider each and every encounter as a potential issue. As a DM, if I were asked to review this homebrew and decide whether a player could run it, I think that ability would get a 'no' from me, because of potential abuse, issues and extra hassle on my part.
    So you would never acept a cleric able to rebuke/command undead because he could get some undeads as minions for free?

    And let's admit it, altough geting a minion with your HD at low levels is strong, at medium high levels it's a cheap meat shield, as all monsters have way too much HD or too much Int for their CR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Put simply, it's a class feature that basically says "You get another character on the battlefield." That never works well.
    Ranger and paladin would like a word with you then.
    Summon monster line of spells also is hardly considered on the higher power level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    That aside, I fear it's too open ended, when a player could have a pseudonatural carrion crawler, rust monster, red dragon (acquired after lowering int via. ray of stupidity), or bullette on the battlefield.
    Now that I look at it, the bulette is CR 7 with 9HD. You're geting a thrall two levels behind you. The bulette does have a lot of attacks but they aren't magic and a lot of stuff at this level has DR

    The weakest red dragon(wyrmling) is CR 4 and has 7HD. A young adult has 19 HD and is CR 13.

    Again, pretty much all "stupid" monsters have more HD than CR, and the monsters with HD equal or lower than their CR have hight ints.

    If anything I would put a clause that a creature with just a temporary penalty to int can't be made a thrall, or that it breaks free when it recovers his mind.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-06 at 02:31 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    So you would never acept a cleric able to rebuke/command undead because he could get some undeads as minions for free?
    Well, the cleric, much like druid, is hardly the paragon of game balance.

    And let's admit it, altough geting a minion with your HD at low levels is strong, at medium high levels it's a cheap meat shield, as all monsters have way too much HD or too much Int for their CR.
    The effect does dwindle at higher levels, yes, but even at levels 3-6, it's a pretty overwhelmingly effective ability for a one level dip.

    Ranger and paladin would like a word with you then.
    Summon monster line of spells also is hardly considered on the higher power level.
    Ranger packs a companion with a CR that's basically 1/5th of his level. At level 14, you've got a CR3 companion with a few general buffs to HD, armor & stats. Account for the stat changes and it's more like 1/3rd or 1/2.

    Compare to the Kaorti who's packing a thrall with a CR that's what, 4/5ths of his level? It declines badly at later levels, yes, but it's a pretty impressive power boost for a 1-level dip. A 1-level dip in druid, by contrast, doesn't allow for a companion that scales so dramatically.

    Summon Monster has other costs for what it does. You use up spells per day, you've got a time limit and they can be dispelled (As can the enchantments on charmed monsters)

    Now that I look at it, the bulette is CR 7 with 9HD. You're geting a thrall two levels behind you. The bulette does have a lot of attacks but they aren't magic and a lot of stuff at this level has DR
    True that, but it remains undoubtedly better than the ranger's animal companion, and you can spend gold to outfit it better for combat, cast magic fang, or whatever, and it's not liable to get sundered or killed so long as it's burrowing.

    The weakest red dragon(wyrmling) is CR 4 and has 7HD. A young adult has 19 HD and is CR 13.
    The red dragon example was more to stress how players could & would come up with ways to get around the intrinsic limitations (ie. int cap) in the ability to get access to stuff they otherwise shouldn't. Not so much an example of a ridiculously good monster.

    ...
    Also, while you're here, could I ask you to just glance over my Hill, Stone & Frost Giants? I've revised them to bring the max class level up to their CRs, but haven't got any feedback as of yet for the added abilities.

    Got the Fire Giant and Cloud Giants in a notepad file with some changes made, but still need to tweak and refine the idea concepts for 'em.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-06 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hey, let's try this again!

    Reth Dekala
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    Changelog: edited Vilefire into maneuvers, removed ability bonuses, removed floating marauder's, well, floating.
    Spoiler
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    HD:d8
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1 | +1 |+2 | +0|+2 |Dekala Body, Floating Marauder, Infernal Initiator
    2| +2| +3 |+0|+3 |Cursed Form, +1 Con
    3| +3|+3| +1| +3|Vilefire Initiation, +1 Dex
    4| +4| +4|+1| +4 |Air Walk, +1 Con, +1 Dex
    [/table]
    Skills:4+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills are Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: The Planes, Listen, Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot
    Proficiencies: proficient with all simple & martial weapons, light & medium armor and all shields but tower shields.

    Features:

    Dekala body: At 1st level the Reth Dekala loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basically darkvision 60 foot). It is a medium sized outsider with base speed 30. The Reth Dekala also gains the lawful and evil subtypes and his weapons count as lawful and evil for purposes of bypassing DR.

    In addition, he gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his Con modifier.

    Floating Marauder (ex): The Reth Dekala gains a bonus to jump and balance checks equal to his HD.

    Infernal Initiator: The Reth Dekala gains the ability to initiate maneuvers. His initiator level is equal to his Reth Dekala levels. When it gains this ability, the Reth Dekala picks four disciplines. He then gains a new maneuver at every class level but 3 from one of his chosen disciplines, each usable 1/encounter. At level 3 the Reth Dekala gains one stance known from any chosen discipline.

    Cursed Form: The Reth Dekala gains fortification of 10% per Reth Dekala class level, plus 5% per non-Reth Dekala HD. Thus, a Reth Dekala 2/X 5 would have 45% fortification. (10*2 + 5*5)
    The fortification cannot increase about 100% this way, in which case the Reth Dekala gains total immunity to precision damage.

    Ability Score Increases: The Reth Dekala gains +1 constitution at 2nd and 4th level and +1 dexterity at 3rd & 4th level for a total of +2 constitution & +2 dexterity.

    Vilefire Initiation: The Reth Dekala embraces the green flames it ubiquitously spews, now able to utilize them as various maneuvers. He adds the below to his maneuvers and stances known as soon as he is able to use them. In addition, the Reth Dekala gains a resistance to fire and acid equal to its HD.

    Unless otherwise noted, Vilefire damage is half acid and half fire. Only a Reth Dekala can learn the below maneuvers and stances.

    Spoiler
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    Vilefire Strike:
    Strike
    Level: Warblade 1
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: 1 creature
    Duration: Instantaneous/1 round
    Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
    The Reth Dekala channels his vilefire onto his blade and makes a single attack as a part of this maneuver. If the attack his, the opponent takes 1d6 vilefire damage, and must make a fort save (DC 11+con mod) or be sickened for 1 round.

    Vilefire Blast:
    Strike
    Level: Warblade 2
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: 60 ft.
    Target: 1 creature
    Duration: Instantaneous/1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
    The Reth Dekala makes a ranged touch attack as a part of this maneuver, with a range of 60 feet. If it hits, the opponent takes 1d8 vilefire damage, and must make a fort save (DC 12+con mod) or be sickened for 1 round/Initiator level.

    Vilefire Burst:
    Boost
    Level: Warblade 3
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: 5 ft.
    Target: All adjacent creatures
    Duration: Instantaneous/1 round
    The Reth Dekala is consumed in an aura of vilefire for an instant, and all adjacent foes take 1d6 vilefire damage and must make a fort save (DC 13+con mod) or be sickened for 1 round.

    Vilefire Blade:
    Boost
    Level: Warblade 4
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: End of Turn
    Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
    The Reth Dekala's blade is sheathed in vilefire, dealing an additional 1d8+1/initiator level vilefire damage and sickening foes for 1 round unless they make a fort save DC (14+con mod).

    Vilefire Aura:
    Stance
    Level: Warblade 5
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: Stance
    The Reth Dekala is consumed in vilefire, and is able to sustain it for quite some time. All adjacent creatures take 1d6 vilefire damage and must make a fort save (DC 15+con mod) or be sickened for 1 round.

    Horrid Vilefire Strike:
    Strike
    Level: Warblade 6
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: Melee attack
    Target: 1 creature
    Duration: Instantaneous or more (see below)
    Saving Throw: Fortitude partial
    The Reth Dekala channels his vilefire onto his blade and makes a single attack as a part of this maneuver. If the attack his, the opponent takes 1d8 vilefire damage, and must make a fort save (DC 16+con mod) or be nauseated for 1 round, and sickened 1 round/level thereafter. A creature who succeeds on the saving throw is still sickened for 1 round.

    Vilefireball:
    Strike
    Level: Warblade 7
    Initiation Action: 1 standard action
    Range: 100 feet+10 feet/level
    Area: 20 foot burst
    Duration: Instantaneous/1 round/level
    Saving Throw: Reflex Half/Fortitude negates
    The Reth Dekala channels his vilefire into a ball and hurls it at an enemy, where it explodes into noxious fumes. All within the radius take 1d6/IL (max 10d6) vilefire damage, with a reflex saving throw (DC 17+con mod) for half. In addition, a fog lingers in the area, forcing all within it to make a fortitude saving throw (DC 17+con mod) or be nauseated for 1 round. The fog remains in place for 1 round/level.

    Searing Vilefire Blade:
    Boost
    Level: Warblade 8
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Range: Personal
    Target: You
    Duration: End of Turn
    Saving Throw: Fortitude Partial
    The Reth Dekala's blade is sheathed in vilefire, dealing an additional 1d8/2 initiator levels (Max 10d8) vilefire damage and nauseating foes for 1 round unless they make a fort save DC (18+con mod).

    Vilefire Fog:
    Stance
    Level: Warblade 9
    Initiation Action: 1 swift action
    Area: 30 feet radius
    Range: Personal
    Duration: Stance
    The Reth Dekala releases his vilefire into a horrid, cloying gas that wracks and sears the lungs of any who breath it in. Any who inhale the vilefire must make a fortitude save (DC 19+con mod). If they fail this one, they are nauseated for one round, and must make an additional fortitude save. If they fail the second one, they die, hacking up their own lungs.


    Air Walk (ex): The Reth Dekala floats above the ground and may move through the air at will, gaining the effects of a permanent air walk spell, but as an extraordinary ability.


    Spoiler
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    This was actually a lot easier than the entomber, mainly because, on its own, it's an interesting, diverse class: you don't have to force it to be good, because it already is good.
    It's pretty much the same as the original Reth Dekala, but scaling skill modifiers, scaling vilefire, and replacing the static maneuvers with some actual IL.
    Right now, I'm mainly just curious whether it's balanced- seems just a little OP, as is, and I would've loved to spread it out over a few more levels, but it's technically CR 4, so, it's a 4 level class.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-12-04 at 01:53 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I cant speak on the balance of it, but here's a picture of the Reth Dekala. I avoid posting the picture itself because of bandwidth issues.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I cant speak on the balance of it, but here's a picture of the Reth Dekala. I avoid posting the picture itself because of bandwidth issues.
    ...No, it's not. That's a rakshasa. Same book, different monster.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Hey, let's try this again!

    Reth Dekala
    (It's impossible to find a picture of these guys. If someone with better google-fu than me can, please give me a link.)
    Spoiler
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    HD:d8
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1 | +1 |+2 | +2|+2 |Dekala Body, Floating Marauder, +1 Str
    2| +2| +3 |+3|+3 |Infernal Initiator, +1 Str, +1 Con
    3| +3|+3| +3| +3|Vilefire, +1 Str
    4| +4| +4|+4| +4 |Air Walk, Cursed Form, +1 Str, +1 Con
    [/table]
    Skills:4+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills are Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: The Planes, Listen, Martial Lore, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot
    Proficiencies: proficient with all simple & martial weapons, light & medium armor and all shields but tower shields.

    Features:

    Dekala body: At 1st level the Reth Dekala loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basically darkvision 60 foot). It is a medium sized outsider with base speed 30. The Reth Dekala also gains the lawful and evil subtypes and his weapons count as lawful and evil for purposes of bypassing DR.

    In addition, he gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his Con modifier.

    Floating Marauder (ex): The Reth Dekala gains a bonus to jump and balance checks equal to his HD.
    The Reth Dekala floats just above the ground at all times, and this is not affected by things like caltrops or a grease spell.

    Ability Bonuses: The Reth Dekala gains a bonus to strength at every level, and a bonus to constitution at every even level for a total of +4 strength and +2 constitution at level 4.

    Infernal Initiator: The Reth Dekala initiates as a warblade of its level-1. Only Reth Dekala levels count for this ability, but they stack with warblade levels.

    Vilefire: The Reth Dekala embraces the green flames it ubiquitously spews, now able to utilize them as both as an aura and a blast. In addition, the Reth Dekala gains a resistance to fire and acid equal to its HD.

    *Vilefire Aura (su): Each round at the beginning of the Reth Dekala's turn, creatures adjacent to it take 1d4 points of damage; living creatures must succeed on a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con mod) or be sickened for 1 round. Half the damage is acid and half the damage is fire. A Reth Dekala may suppress this effect as a free action.
    At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the Reth Dekala's Vilefire Aura damage deals an additional 1d4 damage, up to 6d4 at level 18.

    *Vilefire Blast (su): The Reth Dekala may launch a bolt of its green fire at an enemy as an attack action. This is a ranged touch attack that deals 1d6 points of damage; living creatures must succeed on a fort save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con mod) or be sickened for 1 round. Half the damage is acid and half the damage is fire.
    At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the Reth Dekala's Vilefire Blast damage deals an additional 1d8 damage, up to 6d8 at level 18.

    Air Walk (ex): The Reth Dekala floats above the ground and may move through the air at will, gaining the effects of a permanent air walk spell, but as an extraordinary ability.

    Cursed Form: The Reth Dekala gains 50% fortification.


    Spoiler
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    This was actually a lot easier than the entomber, mainly because, on its own, it's an interesting, diverse class: you don't have to force it to be good, because it already is good.
    It's pretty much the same as the original Reth Dekala, but scaling skill modifiers, scaling vilefire, and replacing the static maneuvers with some actual IL.
    Right now, I'm mainly just curious whether it's balanced- seems just a little OP, as is, and I would've loved to spread it out over a few more levels, but it's technically CR 4, so, it's a 4 level class.
    Ok, top to bottom...
    • Helps if you state the source. I presume ToB, but not about to go hunting for it.
    • BAB is too good, considering it gets +Strength. Rogue BAB with the strength bonus is fine.
    • Good saving throws for Fort, Reflex & Will? Seems a bit much.
    • I see arguments and wildly different interpretations arising from the float ability it gets at level 1. Does armor encumber it's movement? What spells, specifically, can it avoid - entangle? fiery ground?
    • He's kind of a monster in melee. Initiating as a slightly lower level warblade plus natural armor plus proficiencies plus stat bonuses.
    • Vilefire Aura perhaps scales up a little too well. Mainly, that it doesn't require an action to perform, and offers pretty steady benefits via. sickening & decent damage.
    • Vilefire Blast has a mechanical typo - it deals 1d6 initially but you get +1d8 every few levels. It'd be better if the extra die were of the same type as the initial one. You should also list range. Beyond that, it's not as probelematic as the aura, as it requires an action to utilize.


    I'd suggest cutting the BAB back to rogue progression, eliminating the con bonus (not needed) and just having +1 str at 2nd and 4th levels. Alternately, keep the BAB as is and eliminate the Str bonus entirely. I liken the former to more of a 'brute' class that doesn't always hit his target but hits damn hard, the latter to a more skilled fighter, given how the +attack and +damage tend to balance out.

    After that's done, we need to tweak vilefire aura, because it's a strong effect for low effort, and it can potentially bog down combat. Picture a combat vs. a fire resistant enemy with DR. Every round, a fort save, rolling the extra Xd4 in damage, then dividing damage in half and working out how to apply fire resistance + DR to the individual halves (Acid & fire).

    Not sure what the ability is like as described, but where it works for a monster you're liable to encounter once, it's potentially more troubling when it's going on in every combat.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-09 at 11:27 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Scorpionfolk


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    HD: d8
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |Scorpionfolk Body, Poison

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |Str +1, Mirror Image 1/day

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |+1 Wis, +1 Cha, Trample

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Str +1, Mirror Image 2/day, Claws

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |Str +1, Major Image 1/day

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |+1 Wis, +1 Cha, Mirror Image 3/day

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |Str +1, Growth, Major Image 2/day[/table]

    Skill Points: A scorpionfolk gains 2+int modifier skill points per level (x4 at level 1).
    Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Nature, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble

    Weapon&Armor Proficiencies: A scorpionfolk is proficient with all simple and weapons and it's own natural attacks. No armor proficiencies.

    Scorpionfolk Body
    The scorpionfolk loses all other racial traits and gains the Monstrous Humanoid type (darkvision out to 60ft) and a sting attack that deals 1d6 damage+str. He also gains natural armor equal to his constitution bonus (if positive). The scorpionfolk is medium and has a base movement speed of 40ft.

    Ability Score Increase
    A scorpionfolk gains a +1 to str score at levels 2, 4, 5 and 7
    In addition, he gains a +1 bonus to wis and cha at level 3 and 6.

    Trample
    As a standard action during its turn in a round, a scorpionfolk can trample creatures at least one size category smaller than itself. This attack deals 1d8+1,5x str score points of bludgeoning damage damage. A trampled opponent can attempt either and attack of opportunity at a -4 penalty or a reflex save (DC 20) for half damage.

    Poison
    A scorpionfolk delivers it's poison (Fortitude save DC 10+1/2 character level+con modifier) with each successful sting attack. The initial and secondary damage is 1d4 points of dex damage. The save dc (unmodified by con modifier) may not exceed 10+class level. When the scorpionfolk gains it's seventh HD, both secondary and primary dexterity damage becomes 1d6. At fourteenth HD, both become. 1d8

    Claws
    The scorpionfolk gains two claw attacks that deal 1d4+1/2 str each.

    Spell-Like Abilities
    Times per day indicated in the table, a scorpionfolk may use one of it's spell-like abilities (Mirror Image or Major Image) with caster level equal to hit dice and a save DC of 10+Spell Level + Cha modifier. After the scorpionfolk has reached level seven in this class, for every 4 hit dice, he gains another use of his Major Image SLA. For ever 3 hit dice, he gains another use of his Mirror Image SLA

    Growth
    The scorpionfolk becomes one size category larger (long)


    Comments
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    It's the scorpionfolk from MMII. I remembered it from NWN, and I wanted to give this a shot. I beefed up the uses for the SLA:s to make it relevant, but it's mostly copypasta.
    Changes: SLA:s changed, Str bonus lessened, natural attack damage lessened and claws shifted to level 4.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2011-03-24 at 12:41 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Re: Scorpionfolk.

    Is he perhaps a bit too good in melee? Full BAB + strength bonus is notable, as well as a three-weapon full attack at early levels.

    Some stuff is missing: Should state he's medium size at 1st level and what his base movement speed is.

    I really don't think mirror image needs the base caster level of 10. It's really good, given that you're (at second level, no less) creating 1d4+3 duplicates (The extra three are from the high caster level), potentially reducing your chance of taking an attack to 1/7th.

    The wisdom bonus is probably unnecessary, the strength bonus maybe a bit too high considering he has full BAB.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The wis and cha bonuses are basically because the MMII scorpionfolk have higher wis&cha than the norm. I lowered the str bonus to +4. Caster level is now equal to class level. Claw attack moved to level 4 and trample moved to level 3.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2010-07-09 at 02:00 PM.
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