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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I see. What do you suggest I replace the ability with?

  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I dunno, honestly. You've done a good job of staying on target and keeping abilities fitting to the air elemental, so I'm sure you'll come up with something, and I have no problem going over whatever you've come up with to make sure it works.

    Funny thing, I just finished rewatching Avatar, the Last Airbender (The TV show, not the craptacular movie), and you'd think I'd get an idea from there. Alas.

  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    Okay, this has been bugging me for a long time now.

    In a number of these classes, Oslecamo, the monsters are stated to have resistance to poison. You had it pointed out to you earlier in one of them, but you appear to have missed correcting it in many other places.

    Like, enough places to make this sentence.

    I haven't checked them all, but correcting those would definitely be a start.
    It has been a month and this still hasn't been done yet, so I thought I'd give it a bump in case it was missed.
    I do think I posted around the time you were absent.

  4. - Top - End - #964

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    It has been a month and this still hasn't been done yet, so I thought I'd give it a bump in case it was missed.
    I do think I posted around the time you were absent.
    I missed the first post indeed, but check the classes closer. They all have an ability at second level (demon, devil, archon, celestial) that gives them their due resistances, including poison.

    I put it at 2nd level in those monsters because I felt like them having the poison resistance at 1st level would be too good of a dip.


    Angel: The angel gains low light vision, resistance to petrification, acid, cold, poison equal to it's HD and resistance to fire and electrecity equal to half it's HD.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-16 at 02:14 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I've updated the Fire Giant so his class extends to a max level equivalent to his CR. He now gets:
    • Extinguish Life - 7th level - He can force Massive Damage save-or-dies more easily as he levels.
    • Smackdown - 8th level - This enhances his 'Swat' ability so he gets a few more options (includes being able to swat enemies with thrown boulders, striking riders off their mounts and swatting multiple opponents at once).
    • Tower of Iron - 9th level - The Fire Giant gets a stance that lets him basically grit his teeth, stand there and take it, then chuckle when it does little to affect him. It gives him an option of DR, rooting himself to the ground and increased saves at the cost of some AC. (AC tends to dwindle in effectiveness at later levels anyways, so it's a decent tradeoff, IMHO).
    • Unquenchable Ire - 10th level - The Fire Giant can keep on fighting even after he's reached 0 hp. If he takes out an opponent before he reaches his limit, his vigor is restored and he is restored to 1hp.

  6. - Top - End - #966

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Eerr, for some obscure reason I still didn't add your fire giant to the begginning list, mind pointing him out?

  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Fire Giant

    Believe it or not, I actually went back twice to get the URL to link it for you, before you replied, and let myself get distracted with edits or other webpages.

    I didn't list it earlier because it was unfinished.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-16 at 02:52 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #968

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Fire Giant


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    HD:d8
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1| +0 | +2| +0| +0| Fire Giant body, Powerful Build, Str+1, Con+1
    2| +1| +3| +0| +0| Burning Hatred, Swat, Str+1, Con+1
    3| +2| +3| +1| +1| Ignition, Ironclad, Str+1, Con+1
    4| +3| +4| +1| +1| Growth, Throw Stone, Catch, Str+1, Con+1
    5| +3| +4| +1| +1| Trample, Too Hot to Handle, Str+1, Con+1
    6| +4| +5| +2| +2| Stomp, Str+1, Con+1
    7| +5| +5| +2| +2| Extinguish Life, Str+1, Con+1
    8| +6| +6| +2| +2| Smackdown, Str+1, Con+1
    9| +6| +6| +3| +3| Tower of Iron, Str+1, Con+1
    10| +7| +7| +3| +3| Unquenchable Ire, Str+1, Con+1
    [/TABLE]
    Skills: 2+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills are Climb, Craft (Any one), Jump, Listen and Spot.

    Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and his own natural weapons, plus light, medium and heavy armor.

    Features:
    Fire Giant body: The Fire Giant loses all other racial bonuses, and gains giant traits (mainly low light vision), a base speed of 30 feet, two natural slam attacks doing 1d4+Str each and a +1 racial bonus on thrown rocks. Lastly, he gains natural armor equal to his Con bonus.

    Ability score increase: a Fire Giant gains +1 Str and +1 Con for each level in this class. By tenth level, a Fire Giant has +10 Str and +10 Con.

    Powerful Build: At first level, a Fire Giant gains Powerful Build. The physical stature of Giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever the Giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creatureís special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subjectís size category.

    Burning Hatred: At second level, the Fire Giant gains a resistance to fire equal to double his HD, but takes 1 extra damage for every HD whenever he takes cold damage. The Fire Giant is comfortable in hot climates and ignores any penalties or damage from smoke and ambient heat. As such, a Fire Giant can see through smoke with little difficulty and is not bothered by oppressively hot temperatures (such as around a forge or magma) or handling hot materials.
    At 8HD, the Fire Giant is instead immune to fire and is vulnerable to cold.

    Swat: At second level, the Fire Giant may turn his strength to knocking enemies around rather than simply harming them. A Swat is a standard-action, touch based attack delivered with the Giant's slam attack. Enemies take standard slam damage, but the Fire Giant does not add his Str to damage. Instead, enemies are knocked 5' in the direction of the giant's choice (excepting movement into the Giant's occupied area), plus 5' for every size category the giant has over them. Increase the distance increment by 5' for every 5HD of the Giant.

    Enemies who are knocked into obstacles must make a balance test (DC is 10 + the damage dealt + the Giant's Str modifier) or fall prone. If an enemy is knocked into another enemy's square, both foes must make balance tests.

    Flying enemies must pass the same balance test or lose flying for 1 round per size category the Giant has over them.

    Ignition: At third level, the Fire Giant may set a single melee weapon or 1d6 boulders ablaze with a move action and an appropriate material (such as alcohol, oil or alchemist's fire) on hand (either on his person or in reach). The weapon remains aflame for a number of rounds equal to the Giant's HD.

    Weapons set aflame in this manner will set struck enemies and flammable objects ablaze. Foes and objects burn for 1d6 damage a round, for a number of rounds equal to Ĺ the Giant's HD, rounded down, or until someone dedicates a full-round action to extinguishing them. Foes extinguishing themselves will remove the flames before taking damage.

    At 5HD, add the Fire Giant's Cha bonus to the damage done each round.

    At 11HD, the Fire Giant's attunement to elemental fire sustains any fires he sets indefinitely, and neither the weapon nor the targets will cease burning until they are sheathed or extinguished with a full round action, respectively. This effect only persists so long as the Fire Giant is present and conscious.

    At 15HD, the Fire Giant may ignite weapons or ammunition in his reach as an immediate action.

    Ironclad: At third level, the Fire Giant has grown so used to his own armor that it is like a second skin. Halve any arcane spell failure and armor check penalties for armor worn. Further, the Fire Giant suffers no movement penalties for heavier armor and is not troubled by sleeping in it.

    Growth: At fourth level, the Fire Giant finishes growing to large size but loses Powerful Build. His AC, bonus to hit, slam damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties. His base movement speed increases by 10' (This movement boost occurs again at 12HD and 20HD, as the giant increases in size again).

    The Giant continues to grow throughout his life:
    At 8HD, the Fire Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Huge size.
    At 12HD, the Fire Giant grows to Huge size and loses Powerful Build.
    At 16HD, the Fire Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Gargantuan size.
    At 20HD, the Fire Giant grows to Gargantuan size and loses Powerful Build.

    Throw Stone: At fourth level, the Fire Giant may begin throwing boulders or other large objects. A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to 600 feet. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects). A Gargantuan giant can hurl rocks of 90 to 120 pounds (large objects). Inanimate objects of similar size and heft may be substituted, but you lose the racial bonus to attack rolls and have half the range.

    Catch: At fourth level, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

    Trample: At fifth level, as a full-round action, The Giant can move up to twice his speed and literally run over any opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. The Giant merely has to move over the opponents in its path; any creature whose space is completely covered by the Giantís space is subject to the trample attack. If a targetís space is larger than 5 feet, it is only considered trampled if the Giant moves over all the squares it occupies.

    A trample attack deals bludgeoning damage (the Giantís slam damage + 1Ĺ times his Str modifier).

    Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage.

    The save DC against the Giantís trample attack is 10 + Ĺ Giant's HD + Giantís Str modifier. The Giant can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

    Too Hot to Handle: At fifth level, the Fire Giant can will his opponents to burn. Opponents with fire resistance lose a number of points in their resistance equal to the Fire Giant's HD when in the Giant's threatened area. Against opponents who are immune to fire, a number of points of damage equal to Ĺ the Giant's HD + his Cha bonus still passes through.

    Stomp: At sixth level, the Fire Giant may bring his spiked iron cleats down on hapless foes within his reach, grinding fallen enemies beneath his boots. The Fire Giant must make an opposed strength check against the opponent, with both the Giant and the target adding their respective size bonuses/penalties as found in the grapple rules.

    Foes failing the roll take standard slam damage and suffer 1d6 Con damage as bones are shattered by the impact. Prone or helpless foes suffer twice the damage (both standard and Con) and cannot make their opposed Strength checks.

    At 8HD, the Giant may elect to affect a 10' square with his Stomp. If any opponent in the space succeeds their strength check, the stomp fails.

    At 16HD, the Giant may affect a 15' square. Again, if any opponent within the space succeeds their opposed strength check, the stomp fails.

    Extinguish Life: At seventh level, the Fire Giant is well versed in ending the lives of lesser creatures. For the purposes of melee or boulder attacks delivered by the Fire Giant, subtract the Fire Giant's HD from a given creature's Massive Damage threshold (Default 50). Thus, on taking damage from a seventh level Fire Giant, enemies would have to save against massive damage if they took 43 or more damage from a single attack.

    Further, add Ĺ the Fire Giant's Str bonus to the DC of the fortitude save.

    Smackdown: At eighth level, the Fire Giant can do more when swatting opponents. These expanded options are:
    • The Fire Giant can deliver the Swat effect with thrown boulders.
    • The Fire Giant can use Swat to dismount a rider from their steed. If the touch attack connects, the rider must make a ride check (DC is 10 + Ĺ Fire Giant's HD + Fire Giant Str Bonus) or be struck from the saddle.
    • The Fire Giant can swat multiple opponents at once. The Fire Giant takes a -2 penalty on attacks for each intended target after the first.


    Tower of Iron: At ninth level, the Fire Giant can opt to rely on his great mass and endurance to take the brunt of any blows. Tower of Iron is a stance, and on adopting it, the Fire Giant trades away AC for damage reduction. Halve the Giant's bonus from any armor or shields, rounding down (+2 full plate would be 8+2 divided by two for a total of 5). The Fire Giant takes a penalty to AC equal to this number, but gains DR equal to 1/2 his HD (rounded down) plus this number. While in this stance, the Fire Giant cannot be knocked prone or moved from his position without his consent, and gains a +2 bonus to Fortitude and Reflex saves. Adopting the Tower of Iron stance is a swift action.

    Unquenchable Ire: At tenth level, the Fire Giant does not fall when he reaches 0 hp. He continues to fight, losing 1 hp at the end of each round, until his total of negative HP equals his Con score, at which point he falls in battle and is unconscious and dying as normal. During the initial period of fighting below 0 hp, if the Giant defeats an opponent (or a collection of opponents) with enough of a CR to grant him standard experience, he is restored to 1hp.


    Comments:
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    I stalled in the Fire Giant for a long time as my first idea for a level 2 ability involved improvised weapons, and it didn't work out mechanically. While Fire Giants are the fiery counterpart to their cold-based kin, they don't have the same metamystical background and ties to existing mythologies. As such, I kept them more grounded in reality, insofar as such exists in D&D. In the end, I kept it a 6 level class (even though the monster manual fire giants have more CR than frost giants, which I wrote up as a 7-level).

    Fire Giants are warriors, and while Swat and Stomp may seem less glitzy than Demolish, Fling and Smash, any D&D player is liable to agree that a touch-based attack that pushes enemies away coupled with reach and a large threatened area makes for a pretty vicious combatant. To build on the warrior feel, I emphasized the heavy armor proficiency with an ability reducing the penalties for said armor. (This also ties into the idea of fire giants as really big dwarves - as dwarves have a similar ability).

    Too Hot To Handle is there primarily because fire is the most resisted element (with almost twice the creatures having fire resistance/immunity as compared any other type, I've heard). I wanted to promote the fire flavor while not disadvantaging the Fire Giant.


    Changelog:
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    • Changed the Fire Giant from a 6 level class to a 10 level class. Introduced abilities Smackdown, Extinguish Life, Tower of Iron and Unquenchable Ire.


    Made by Hyudra, copy-pastad because her link connected to a quote and not the actual post.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-16 at 03:26 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Made by Hyudra, copy-pastad because his link connected to a quote and not the actual post.
    My bad, and not a 'his' but a 'her'.

    I'll be working on Cloud Giant next. Most work to do there. 5 levels to add to the initial six, and it doesn't give a lot to work with.

    Edit - I notice you added the Fire Giant to the list. Thanks. If the frost giant & others are done, perhaps you could remove the "Still in progress" tag from the entry?
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-16 at 04:49 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #970

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Edit - I notice you added the Fire Giant to the list. Thanks. If the frost giant & others are done, perhaps you could remove the "Still in progress" tag from the entry?
    Done.

    Also, perhaps you can advise me on the tarrasque. I've been toying with it with quite some time but I'm divided between two "paths" to take.

    1-big slow massive monster that can shrugg off anything you throw at him and slows you down at distance by shooting hails of spikes from his back while closing in.

    2-Big suprisingly fast massive monster that burrows and swims at lighting speed to close in with it's target (while also shrugging off pretty much everything you throw at him), doing massive leaps to reach flying oponents (and spines for those really far away).

    Either way the tarrasque will be a melee monstruosity specialized in nullifying defenses, and able to tear reality itself around for some extra special effects (like tear holes trough dimensions and take down effects like wall of force).

    From a fluff perspective, I'm doing the whole "Destroyer" thingy, trampling over and devouring everything that crosses his path, altough if somebody else has another perspective perspective on the tarrasque it would be aprciated.

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Done.

    Also, perhaps you can advise me on the tarrasque. I've been toying with it with quite some time but I'm divided between two "paths" to take.

    1-big slow massive monster that can shrugg off anything you throw at him and slows you down at distance by shooting hails of spikes from his back while closing in.

    2-Big suprisingly fast massive monster that burrows and swims at lighting speed to close in with it's target (while also shrugging off pretty much everything you throw at him), doing massive leaps to reach flying oponents (and spines for those really far away).

    Either way the tarrasque will be a melee monstruosity specialized in nullifying defenses, and able to tear reality itself around for some extra special effects (like tear holes trough dimensions and take down effects like wall of force).

    From a fluff perspective, I'm doing the whole "Destroyer" thingy, trampling over and devouring everything that crosses his path, altough if somebody else has another perspective perspective on the tarrasque it would be aprciated.
    How about...

    - Upon death, it can regenerate back to full health in 1d4 hours. This can be done once per year or month or whatever, +1 per 10 HD?

  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Speed doesn't really suit the tarasque's image. giving it the ability to tear through anything in their path would be fitting, but an ability that lets them deal with flying creatures would be good
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

  13. - Top - End - #973
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Cultist View Post
    Speed doesn't really suit the tarasque's image. giving it the ability to tear through anything in their path would be fitting, but an ability that lets them deal with flying creatures would be good
    What about epic pooping and vomiting?

    Sorry, just a throw back to one 'vs. tarrasque' match on this board that had the tarrasque hiding in a pool of its own poop and surprising the fighter. Combat lasted maybe 2 or 3 rounds. Fighter got eaten.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-07-16 at 10:13 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The Tarrasque is probably the only creature who's going to advance to colossal size by 20th level. He lacks fine manipulation and can't speak, but he's the iconic 20 CR bruiser.

    I wouldn't say he should be lightning fast, as that really goes against what we see in the monster entry. I'm not sure where the spines come in, either. I understand why you put them in, but I don't think they fit the monster.

    More fitting, I think, would for the approach of the Tarrasque to be this terrible omen. His weakness to flying opponents and other hijinks is ameliorated by the fact that, at later levels, his arrival is preceded by storms, terrible winds, cracking earth and eruptions of magma. The sky turns red and animals start leaving the area well before the tarrasque shows up on the battlefield. It's liable to be a little screwy for a PC, but hell, you're playing a Tarrasque, you can't expect gameplay to be normal.

    Take a note from the 4th edition playbook - the Tarrasque there generates an aura of gravity that prevents creatures from flying out of reach. Play with that idea to cover weaknesses, rather than taking away from the concept. He's strong as sin, he's got a mess of melee attacks and tons of raw strength. The abilities that fill in the gaps, then, are ones that cover his weaknesses, but they do so by basically saying, "Yeah, this guy is so badass, that's just not going to work." He can headbutt his way through force walls, generates terrible storms that prevent flying & raining arrows from above, and when he slams his great foreclaws into the ground, it shatters the earth and creates difficult terrain (which doesn't bother him in the least).

    If someone's rolling up a Tarrasque, they want to be badass. I say give them license to do so.

    Edit - Also, I recommend using the 4th edition art. Kicks ass as compared to the 3.5e artwork.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-16 at 10:46 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    You could give him a line breath weapon instead.

    We all know The Tarrasque is just Godzilla in disguise.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    You could give him a line breath weapon instead.

    We all know The Tarrasque is just Godzilla in disguise.
    Do that, and it's just a wingless dragon.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Are exceptions allowed to the CR rule? For example, the red dragon would have to be CR 26.

    I'm wondering because I'm looking at a few monsters and, just for an example, the frost worm wouldn't warrant twelve levels if it was made to be playable. For twelve levels here's what you'd get

    three class skills
    Constitution and strength boosts
    Trill (which is a bit of a double edged sword)
    a slightly improved frost enchantment on its bite.
    Death throes (Also a double edged sword)
    huge size
    A breath weapon.
    a burrow speed.

    Which, IMHO, doesn't warrant twelve levels of a class. While I realize you'd have to ask for exceptions would they be allowed?
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  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    ...Actually, the tarrasque is capable of bursts of speed: he can move pretty damn fast, if need be. 150' is nothing to sneeze at, eh? And double that during a charge... I think- the ability is pretty poorly worded. I think if you give liberal uses of this ability, and some sort of crazy bonus to jump checks from it, it should work out well.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    If the CR extends into epic range, we just do it up to 20 and ignore the point where it'd be epic (as with the red dragon).

    If the creature doesn't have enough abilities to make it worth being a high level creature, we add flavorful abilities to flesh it out (as with Giants and your supposed worm).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    ...Actually, the tarrasque is capable of bursts of speed: he can move pretty damn fast, if need be. 150' is nothing to sneeze at, eh? And double that during a charge... I think- the ability is pretty poorly worded. I think if you give liberal uses of this ability, and some sort of crazy bonus to jump checks from it, it should work out well.
    Yeah, but that's once per minute, which basically works out to once per encounter. It's something to get him in combat, but doesn't define his fighting style.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-17 at 01:05 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Vrock



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    HD:d10
    {table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
    1|+1|+2 |+0 |+2|Demonic Avian, Vulture's Senses, +1 Str
    2|+2|+3 |+0|+3|Demon, +1 Con
    3|+3|+3|+1 |+3|Spore Cloud, Resistant Hide
    4|+4|+4|+1|+4|Lesser SLAs, +1 Str
    5|+5|+4|+1|+4|Flight, +1 Con
    6|+6/+1|+5|+2 |+5|Lift, +1 Str
    7|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Growth, +1 Con
    8|+8/+3|+6|+2| +6|Stunning Screech, Immunities, +1 Str
    9|+9/+4|+6|+3| +6|Greater SLAs, +1 Con
    [/table]

    Skills:2+int modifier per level, Class skills are Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (The Planes), Listen, Move Silently, & Spot

    Proficiencies:Simple and Martial weapons, its own natural attacks.

    Features:
    Demonic Avian: The Vrock loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basicaly darkvision 60'). It's an outsider with base speed 30 feet, 2 claws dealing 1d8+str mod damage and one bite dealing 1d6+1/2 str mod damage. The claws are primary natural attacks, and the bite is secondary.
    It also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con modifier.

    Vulture's Senses:The Vrock gains a bonus to spot and listen checks equal to its HD, and telepathy out to 10 feet per HD.

    Ability Score Modifiers: The Vrock gains +1 Con at levels 2, 5, 7 & 9, and +1 Str at levels 1, 4, 6 & 8, for a total of +4 Con and +4 Str at level 9.

    Demon: At 2nd level, the Vrock gains resistance to electrecity and a bonus on saves against poison equal to his HD, and resistance to fire, acid and cold equal to half his HD. In addition, he gains the evil and chaotic subtypes and his attacks with natural and manufactured weapons count as chaotic and evil for the purposes of bypassing DR.

    Spore Cloud (ex): At third level, the Vrock may release a cloud of spores from its body once per day for every 2 HD it has as a free action. The spores deal 1d6 damage to all adjacent creatures, and increase by another 1d6 at 6 HD and every 3 HD thereafter, up to 6d6 at level 18.
    The spores begin to dig into the victim with thorny vines: any creature damaged by the spores must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con mod) or suffer intense pain, taking a -1 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks for 10 rounds. This penalty increases by 1 6 HD, and by an additional 1 every 3 HD thereafter to a maximum of -6 at level 18.

    Resistant Hide: At third level, the Vrock gains SR equal to 7+HD, and DR/Good equal to 1/2 HD.

    Lesser SLAs: At 4th level, the Vrock gains the ability to use Mirror Image and Heroism as SLAs once per day for every 2 HD it has. At 11 HD the Vrock can use Greater Mirror Image and Greater Heroism instead.

    Flight: At 5th level, the Vrock gains a fly speed of 50', with an average maneuverability. In addition, when flying, it can use 2 natural talon attacks that deal 1d4+1/2 str modifier damage.

    Lift: At 6th level, the Vrock gains improved grab with its talons, and can fly while grappling, so long as the Vrock is not carrying a heavy load.

    Growth:At 7th level, the Vrock grows to large size, and his AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills change acordingly, but he doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

    Stunning Screech: Starting at 8th level, once per day a Vrock may emit a stunning screech as a free action; all non-demons in a 30 ft. radius must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD+con mod) or be stunned for 1 round. This ability may be used twice a day at 12 HD, thrice a day and lasts for 2 rounds at 16 HD, and 4 times a day and lasts for 3 rounds at 20 HD.

    Immunities: The Vrock becomes immune to electricity and poison.

    Greater SLAs: Finally, at 9th level, the Vrock may now use teleport and telekinesis as SLAs, once per day per 4 HD. He may use greater teleport instead at 15 HD. DCs are (10+1/2HD+Cha).


    Comments:
    Spoiler
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    (Warning: Colon abuse ahead!)

    So, another avian lower planes denizen, but this time more serious. I actually like Vrocks; I'm not sure why, but I do. They're big, mean, tough brutes, and I tried to represent that in the stats: lower than full BAB, with a bit of a strength mod to balance it out, and higher than average HD and some good con boosts. Then low skill points, and bad saves. This is all balanced out by some wonderful DR/ resistances, and heroism/mirror image, which just make it tougher. Meanwhile, it's got it's spores to do some extra damage: I changed the recurring damage to a debuff similar to symbol of pain: should be a bit more elegant. I also added the "lift" ability completely on my own accord: the idea is, the Vrock grabs an enemy, grapples them, and flies into the air as he does so: if they want to escape... well, he should be all too happy to let them. The spores ability aids grappling, doing damage as a free action and potentially making a big hit towards the enemy grapple check.
    In the end, I was going more for tank/debuffer, with melee as a secondary role.

    Changelog: Gave another +1 Str, standardized "Resistant Hide" and demon abilities, gave full BAB and good will saves.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-26 at 02:42 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #981
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Changed Whispering Wind to Roaring Wind, basically fills the area with harmless, though extremely inconvenient, wind. May be worse than the previous ability but I guess we shall see.

    Also, Great Job on the Vrock. I can't say whether or not it's balanced (though it appears to be.) I'd definitely play one.

  22. - Top - End - #982

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I wouldn't say he should be lightning fast, as that really goes against what we see in the monster entry.
    The original Tarrasque has the rush ability that allows him to suddenly move at 150 foot, and I would like to keep some flavor of that ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    I'm not sure where the spines come in, either. I understand why you put them in, but I don't think they fit the monster.
    The PF tarrasque can shoot spines, and heck, all tarrasque arts have huge lines of spines on their backs. Also, Lavos from Chrono-Trigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    More fitting, I think, would for the approach of the Tarrasque to be this terrible omen. His weakness to flying opponents and other hijinks is ameliorated by the fact that, at later levels, his arrival is preceded by storms, terrible winds, cracking earth and eruptions of magma. The sky turns red and animals start leaving the area well before the tarrasque shows up on the battlefield. It's liable to be a little screwy for a PC, but hell, you're playing a Tarrasque, you can't expect gameplay to be normal.

    Take a note from the 4th edition playbook - the Tarrasque there generates an aura of gravity that prevents creatures from flying out of reach. Play with that idea to cover weaknesses, rather than taking away from the concept. He's strong as sin, he's got a mess of melee attacks and tons of raw strength. The abilities that fill in the gaps, then, are ones that cover his weaknesses, but they do so by basically saying, "Yeah, this guy is so badass, that's just not going to work." He can headbutt his way through force walls, generates terrible storms that prevent flying & raining arrows from above, and when he slams his great foreclaws into the ground, it shatters the earth and creates difficult terrain (which doesn't bother him in the least).
    Yeah I saw the 4e tarrasque but the problem it's that you're not much playing "tarrasque the melee bruiser" but "tarrasque the battlefield controler", wich is kinda taking out from the concept on my opinion.

    Either way, the MM tarrasque needs to be changed. 20 foot base speed and only melee attacks just won't do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    If someone's rolling up a Tarrasque, they want to be badass. I say give them license to do so.
    Ah, yes, I'm trying to do him as badass as possible, the question is on wich ways that badassery will be represented, either by being able to summon super storms or shooting hails of spikes or pouncing over the enemy from a mile away to then bring them down screaming to the ground.

    On the other hand new classes for review piling up, you guys are becoming too good at this...

  23. - Top - End - #983

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hook Horror


    Spoiler
    Show
    HD: D12
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Body of Horror, +1 Str

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |+1 Natural Armor, +1 Str, Horrific reach

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Power Sunder, +1 Str, Hardened Body

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |+1 Natural Armor, Horror Grab, +1 Str

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Bite, +1 Str, Rend

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Growth, +1 Natural Armor, +1 Str, Grasp of the Horror[/table]
    Skill points: 4+int/level
    Class Skills: Listen, Jump, Knowledge: Nature, Intimidate, Tumble, Survival, Hide, move silently, Swim.


    Body of Horror
    The hook horror loses all previous racial traits and gains the aberration type (Darkvision out to 60ft). In addition, it gains blindsight out to 60ft (hearing dependent). However, it's normal vision is very weak, and only extends out to 10ft (so it basically has darkvision 10 foot in practise). The blindsight range increases by 10ft per class level. The hook horror also suffers from light blindness, suffering a -2 to attacks rolls in bright light. It gains a +8 bonus to hide checks when underground. It gains natural armor equal to it's constitution bonus. This natural armor bonus increases by one every even level of this monster class.
    I gains two claw attacks that deal 1d4+str bonus damage. It does not have hands capable of manipulation. It has a move speed of 20ft and a climb speed equal to it's landspeed.

    Strength Bonus
    The hook horror gains a +1 bonus to strength per level.

    Power Sunder
    A hook horror does not provoke attacks of opportunity when sundering. In addition, it's sunders deal double damage.

    Horrific reach

    At 4th level the hook horror gains +5 reach with his claws. For every 2 extra HD this reach increases by an extra +5.

    Hardened Body
    At third level, and ever 2 hd after that, the hook horror gains dr 1/-.

    Horror Grab
    If an hook horror's claw attack hit a creature it may make a grapple attempt as a free action with no attacks of opportunity.

    Bite
    The hook horror gains a bite attack that deals 1d8 damage. In addition, when the hook horror bites a grabbed foe, it deals 3d6+1,5 str bonus damage.

    Rend
    If a hook horror hits with both claw attacks, it latches onto the opponentís body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an
    additional 2d6+1,5 Str modifier points of damage.

    Grasp of the Horror
    The hook horror ignores freedom of movement effects when grappling and escape artist checks may not be made against its grapple. In adition it can now grapple creatures of any size and oponents don't gain any grapple bonus for being larger than the hook horror.

    Growth
    The hook horror becomes one size category larger (tall).


    Comments
    Spoiler
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    The hook horror is pretty much a melee monster. It has 3/4 BAB, but a strength bonus to compensate, in addition to some natural attacks. Since the hook horror in the MMII has some abnormally impressive natural armor, I gave it some extra in it throughout the levels. The power sunder and such are basically just gravy. I'm a bit worried about the level 1 blindsight, but I guess it should be okay with all the limitations.

    My comments:
    If the hook horror is to be a couple tricks pony it may as well be damn good at it.

    I made the reach increase with HD. Yes it ends up with 60 reach at 20HD but it can't use ranged weapons and is still only doing two attacks per turn. Not to mention it can't "see" anything outside of that reach.

    Also added move silently and hide so at least it can sneak up on his enemies as he's suposed to.

    So if you want to play some half-blind monster with long tentacles that grabs his oponents and then pulls them mercilessly to snack on them the hook horror is for you.


    Done by Frog Dragon, minor tweaks by me.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-17 at 07:48 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #984
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I missed the first post indeed, but check the classes closer. They all have an ability at second level (demon, devil, archon, celestial) that gives them their due resistances, including poison.

    I put it at 2nd level in those monsters because I felt like them having the poison resistance at 1st level would be too good of a dip.


    Angel: The angel gains low light vision, resistance to petrification, acid, cold, poison equal to it's HD and resistance to fire and electrecity equal to half it's HD.
    No no no, the point is that there is no such thing as poison resistance. It doesn't exist. It doesn't even make sense with the mechanics. Poison doesn't deal damage like Fire, Cold, Electric, blah blah, it works off of saving throws and then deals ability damage, or knocks someone unconscious, or something.
    Rules for poison.

    I was trying to point out that those classes had poison resistance, and they shouldn't have it.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2010-07-17 at 07:52 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #985

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Added the following to the list:

    Achairai-altough the joke tone it's quite playable.
    Air elemental-Pretty cool, great job there!
    Hook Horror-Some tweaks on my part but now it's a monster that should make grappling a viable main tactic for all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    No no no, the point is that there is no such thing as poison resistance. It doesn't exist. It doesn't even make sense with the mechanics. Poison doesn't deal damage like Fire, Cold, Electric, blah blah, it works off of saving throws and then deals ability damage, or knocks someone unconscious, or something.
    Rules for poison.

    I was trying to point out that those classes had poison resistance, and they shouldn't have it.
    Ah, bad wording on my part then. I meant to say they get a bonus on saves against poison like dwarves. Gonna take care of it next then.

    Kyuubi:
    the dragons "just" have 20 levels because I was too lazy to do their epic progressions, but someday I'll take care of that. Gloom, phoenix and angel/solar go beyond 20th level.

    However, if a creature is lacking in abilities, feel free to add new flavourfull ones. We've been doing that with plenty of monsters like Hyudra pointed out.

    Gorgondantess:
    A single good save, two skill points per level and medium Bab? You can buff up some of that. It's not like he has a massive str bonus or anything. Two of either another good save, better skill points or good Bab.

    Remove Resistant Hide. Use the Demon ability at 2nd level like the other demons so far, because otherwise your vrock tecnically isn't a demon but just an outsider. Great job otherwise!

  26. - Top - End - #986
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Vrock
    • I worry he's maybe too weak at 1st level. Doesn't really get anything it can use in combat, natural attacks aside.
    • What's the rationale for the Natural Armor being based on strength? It's come up more than once. It doesn't make any sense, when Con is the established standard, and makes more sense (Con is toughness, and natural armor is based on natural toughness).
    • Please, when you're describing the abilities, it helps a great deal to state what level the creature gets the ability at. It saves a lot of time going back to the table to keep double checking.
    • Everything Oslecamo said re: making it more of a demon rather than an outsider.
    • Not sure I like the new spore cloud. On one level, it makes a degree of sense - the existing Vrock entry lent itself to a playstyle where it'd spore a group and then take off, teleporting or flying away and leaving them to suffer before returning to reapply and flee once more (at least, that's how I played it). Only when opponents were sufficiently wounded did it gleefully wade into battle and deliver the killing blows. It was kind of a puzzle to fight (how do you get him to stick around so you can kill him, escape or work around the effect?) - that puzzle based play doesn't lend itself well to a PC, though (You'd give the DM a lot of headaches), so the debuff makes a degree of sense. On the other hand, there's not a lot of precedent for a debuffing Vrock, and it doesn't quite fit the flavor of the creature.
    • I'd break up Mirror Image from the 1/day thing (It's an at-will in the monster entry, so it should have plenty of uses). Heroism should probably be 1/day per 8HD or something.
    • Stunning Screech's progression is a little off. You get it at 8th level, then 16HD, then 20. There's a gap between 8 and 16, there, where it could get a bit of a boost.


    Oslecamo, re: Hook Horror - what if the Hook Horror continued to grow with HD, to give it more proportion with the increased reach? 60' is kind of insane for a large creature.

    Edit - Took a while to figure out how to phrase this, but the Vrock pretty much outclasses the Harpy in every which way, and does her schtick better, as far as 'Lift' (vs. the Harpy's Clutch) goes. The Vrock does more damage (three more natural attacks in total plus spore cloud), is far more durable, more mobile on land and gets a huge defensive boost in mirror image. Sure, the Vrock takes a bit longer to pick up the same tricks (flight, flying while grappling), but I think the Vrock would trounce an equivalent level harpy in an even fight.

    That leaves me with the question - do we change Vrock a bit so there's less overlap, give Harpy a bit of a buff, or take another tack?
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-17 at 02:10 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #987
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    • I worry he's maybe too weak at 1st level. Doesn't really get anything it can use in combat, natural attacks aside.
    • I was going to give him +1 str, but then thought it might be too powerful.
    • What's the rationale for the Natural Armor being based on strength? It's come up more than once. It doesn't make any sense, when Con is the established standard, and makes more sense (Con is toughness, and natural armor is based on natural toughness).
    Y'know, I'm always about to base it off of con, then I falsely remember "oh, wait, it's based off of str, better change that."
  28. Everything Oslecamo said re: making it more of a demon rather than an outsider.
Okiedokes.
  • Not sure I like the new spore cloud. On one level, it makes a degree of sense - the existing Vrock entry lent itself to a playstyle where it'd spore a group and then take off, teleporting or flying away and leaving them to suffer before returning to reapply and flee once more (at least, that's how I played it). Only when opponents were sufficiently wounded did it gleefully wade into battle and deliver the killing blows. It was kind of a puzzle to fight (how do you get him to stick around so you can kill him, escape or work around the effect?) - that puzzle based play doesn't lend itself well to a PC, though (You'd give the DM a lot of headaches), so the debuff makes a degree of sense. On the other hand, there's not a lot of precedent for a debuffing Vrock, and it doesn't quite fit the flavor of the creature.
  • Actually, it does. It specifically says in the MM that the vrock likes to wade into combat against overwhelming odds- he's a brute, not a skirmisher. The original spore works well for a skirmisher, but this one synergizes well with the grappling and the, well, wading into melee.
  • I'd break up Mirror Image from the 1/day thing (It's an at-will in the monster entry, so it should have plenty of uses). Heroism should probably be 1/day per 8HD or something.
  • Honestly, I see no game reason why heroism should get so many fewer uses than mirror image, other than "that's how the monster is". At level 10, mirror image is 5/day- if that's not plenty of uses, I don't know what is. I just had heroism use the same progression for simplicity's sake- these things get complicated enough as is. If you have a good reason for this, though, do tell: I'm not nearly so experienced as you.
  • Stunning Screech's progression is a little off. You get it at 8th level, then 16HD, then 20. There's a gap between 8 and 16, there, where it could get a bit of a boost.
  • It gets a bonus use per day at 12 HD- stunning for one round as a free action is powerful enough. Doing that twice a day is really powerful. This is another thing that lends the vrock to being a debuffer: stunning for 1 round is most certainly a sort of debuff.

    Gorgondantess:A single good save, two skill points per level and medium Bab? You can buff up some of that. It's not like he has a massive str bonus or anything. Two of either another good save, better skill points or good Bab.
    Alrighty then.

    Remove Resistant Hide. Use the Demon ability at 2nd level like the other demons so far, because otherwise your vrock tecnically isn't a demon but just an outsider. Great job otherwise!
    Huh. Didn't realize there was one: I was actually looking at the Erinyes when I worked on this. It was 1:00 in the morning, don't judge me.
    And thanks!
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  • - Top - End - #988
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Just edited my above post to add this, but got ninja'ed. Reposting:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra
    Took a while to figure out how to phrase this, but the Vrock pretty much outclasses the Harpy in every which way, and does her schtick better, as far as 'Lift' (vs. the Harpy's Clutch) goes. The Vrock does more damage (three more natural attacks in total - five while flying - plus spore cloud), is far more durable, more mobile on land and gets a huge defensive boost in mirror image. Sure, the Vrock takes a bit longer to pick up the same tricks (flight, flying while grappling), but I think the Vrock would trounce an equivalent level harpy in an even fight.

    That leaves me with the question - do we change Vrock a bit so there's less overlap, give Harpy a bit of a buff, or take another tack?
    Also, just noticed, spore cloud states it deals 1d6, and does another 1d6 at 3HD. It's a third level ability, which pretty much guarantees you have 3HD already. A bit confusing, but it seems it does 2d6 damage at 3rd level. Same issue with the penalty (which, additionally, should probably specify HD rather than levels).
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-17 at 02:21 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Just edited my above post to add this, but got ninja'ed. Reposting:
    Huh... I actually just gave the vrock a buff, at Oslecamo's urging.
    Honestly, when I looked at the harpy, I thought "interesting, but I'd never play it." It's probably around mid-low tier 4. I'd say, buff the harpy... but we want there to be some disparity- if you give it just "Moar Dakka", they'd overlap. The Vrock is a big melee guy, the harpy is not. It wouldn't hurt to give it some musical abilities, eh? Maybe bardic music? Seems to fit well with the whole "singing" thing. Then again, it's sortof an evil-ish race, so you might want to look at the Harbinger- it's a bard whose abilities debuff instead of buff. Don't just stack them, actually give them.
    Then, maybe good will saves, and a boost on skill points?


    As for the spore cloud.... thbbbbbt. Dammit. Changing it now.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-07-17 at 02:25 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Huh... I actually just gave the vrock a buff, at Oslecamo's urging.
    Honestly, when I looked at the harpy, I thought "interesting, but I'd never play it." It's probably around mid-low tier 4. I'd say, buff the harpy... but we want there to be some disparity- if you give it just "Moar Dakka", they'd overlap. The Vrock is a big melee guy, the harpy is not. It wouldn't hurt to give it some musical abilities, eh? Maybe bardic music? Seems to fit well with the whole "singing" thing. Then again, it's sortof an evil-ish race, so you might want to look at the Harbinger- it's a bard whose abilities debuff instead of buff. Don't just stack them, actually give them.
    Then, maybe good will saves, and a boost on skill points?
    I get a little frustrated when posting in this thread since I only get feedback from Oslecamo, and s/he's busy enough that I don't generally get more than a 10-or-less word reply. Don't want to come across as rude/petty or anything, but I would've loved to get that feedback re: "Interesting but I'd never play it" earlier, so I could have made changes.

    Source on the Harbinger? A google search is just turning up the miniatures set of the same name, and I don't know enough about the class/creature to refine search results.

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