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  1. - Top - End - #1081
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Not exactly. The giants have better tools to attack at range and are faster. The golem can shrug off most special attacks thrown at him, but he still needs to reach the fast flying wizard.
    Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?


    Several medias show the mindflayer going straight for the brains, using their psionic powers to back them up. They're suposed to love the gray matter, particularly of exotic/smart/creative/wise creatures. Lords of madness say a mind flayer needs one brain per month, but will gladly eat more if there's prey avaiable.
    Well those medias are stupid. I'm not talking about whether the mindflayer goes for brains at all- they certainly do- I'm talking about how. They'd rather enslave the person than tackle them to the ground in order to get to the brain.



    ...Fine, if you like it so much, make the psionic mind flayer and I'll add it. You've done plenty of good work here so I'll trust you.

    However I'll still be working on the original mind flayer since there needs to be love for hungry illithilds!
    That works for me. I'll also include an ulitharid expansion.
    So, I make the psionic illithid, you make the SLA illithid. The SLA illithid needs their brain-extracty-stuff to back them up, the psionic illithid doesn't. It's all good.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-07-31 at 03:37 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1082

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?
    Basic attack with 600 foot range. Bigger sizes also help makes him basically immune to several spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Well those medias are stupid. I'm not talking about whether the mindflayer goes for brains at all- they certainly do- I'm talking about how. They'd rather enslave the person than tackle them to the ground in order to get to the brain.
    Nah, Lord of Madness states thaty they make raids just for feeding.

    Speaking of wich, Mind flayer updated again, major changes are:
    -A couple more class skills.
    -Int and Cha bonus at all levels.
    -Mental stats to attacks with tentacles.
    -Charm person added to minor psionics.
    -Ability to attack and cast/manifest at the same time.


    Would apreciate comments about the above. In particularly if +8 to int and Cha is too much or not. The giants do get +1str and +1Cha in all levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    That works for me. I'll also include an ulitharid expansion.
    Ah, good catch, I'll do that one as a Prc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    So, I make the psionic illithid, you make the SLA illithid. The SLA illithid needs their brain-extracty-stuff to back them up, the psionic illithid doesn't. It's all good.
    The SLA illithlid still gets:
    -Plane Shift and astral projection at lv8.
    -Stacking with wizard casting wich is superior to psionic manifesting.

    So don't understimate the original mind flayer, his tentacles aren't his only tool.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-31 at 04:07 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1083
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Well, the golem has the grappling hook, and the wristbow options. Does the fire giant have anything to get to a wizard?
    Setting giant rocks on fire and throwing them works. If the wizard's flying, all the better, since a higher level Fire Giant can Swat them out of the air, forcing them to keep to the ground.

    Teleportation and invisibility can be covered with standard purchases, as your typical melee fighter will do.

    It's still not the fairest of fights, but nobody except another major caster is going to reliably win against a major caster.

  4. - Top - End - #1084

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Ulitharid(prc)

    Spoiler
    Show
    Prerequisites

    To become an Ulitharid a player must have taken at least 1 levels of the Mind Flayer class and have at least 11 ranks in concenration.

    HD:d8
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Superior Body, Growth, Ultra Psionics, +1 Con, Alien Mind
    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    | Horror grasp, Psionic Genius, +1 Str
    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Alien Hide, Master Psionics, +1 Con
    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Deep Analysis, Supreme Psionics, +1 Str

    [/table]


    Skills:4+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level.The mind flayer’s class skills (and the key ability for each
    skills) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (any) (Int), Hide(Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Use Magic device (Cha) and Spot (Wis).

    Proficiencies: An ulitharid gains no proficiencies

    Features:

    Superior body:
    Unlike other monster classes, the Ulitharid doesn't lose its racial ability modifiers. His telepathy range doubles.

    Levels of Ulitharid also stack with caster/manifester classes like mindflayer levels did.


    Growth:
    The Ulitharid grows one size category.

    Ultra psionics:
    The Ulitharid can now use Dimension door as a SLA as a free action 1/day for each HD it has, but no more than once per turn.

    In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 3 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

    Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier (wichever is higher).

    Alien Mind:
    For each level of this prestige class the Ulitharid gains a permanent +1 to his Int or Cha scores.

    Ability increase:
    the Ulitharid gains +1 Con at 1st and 3rd levels and +1 Str at 2nd and 4th levels of this class.

    Horror Grasp:
    The Ulitharid now ignores freedom of movement effects when grappling with his tentacles and can grapple oponents of any size.


    Psionic Genius:
    The Ulitharid can now use Mass Sugestion as a SLA 1/day for each 2HD it has.

    In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 3 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.


    Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).

    Alien Hide:the Ulitharid gains a bonus to his nat armor equal to 1/3 his HD, stacking with the Mind Flayer class nat armor, and his total nat armor now applies to uncorporeal attacks as well.

    Master Psionics:
    The Ulitharid can now use dominate monster as a SLA 1/day for each 3HD it has.

    In adition, the Ulitharid can choose any spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use it as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 4 HD it has. If the chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

    Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).


    Deep Analyzis:
    Whenever a creature is damaged by the Ulitharid's tentacle attack it takes a -1 penalty to his saves against any following attack from that Ulitharid attack for 1 hour. Multiple tentacle attacks stack.

    In adition, the Ulitharid can ignore mind-affecting immunity from any creature hit by his tentacle attacks, but those creatures still gain a +10 on saves against mind affecting effects from the Ulitharid. Penalty to saves from the despair ability applies tough.


    Supreme Psionics:
    The Ulitharid can choose any two spell or psionic power of a level no higher than half his own HD and use each as an SLA/PLA 1/day for each 6 HD it has. If a chosen spell/power has an exp cost the Ulitharid must pay it every time he uses it.

    Save DCs are 10+1/2 HD+Int or Cha modifier(wichever is higher).




    Comments:
    Spoiler
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    The Ulitharid is the bigger, nastier cousin of the mind flayer. Bigger size makes grappling easier, and the ulitharid then can add spells and/or powers of his choice to his SLA reportoire. In adition he gains the ability to bypass freedom of movement and mind-affecting immunity and gets yet more rewards for puting his tentacles to work. And some extra AC.

    If you liked the mind flayer class, then the Ulitharid offers a powerfull option to expand his powers.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-01 at 01:19 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1085
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Imp



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    HD:d6
    {table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
    1|+ 1|+0 |+ 2| +0| Body of Mischief, Poison Sting, Ominous Form
    2|+ 2|+0 |+ 3| +0| Devil, Hell Skin, Dark Chicanery, Forked Tongue, Leathery Wings [/table]

    Skills:6+int modifier per level, Class skills are Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge(any), Move Silently, Listen, Search, Sense motive, Spot, Use Magic Device.

    Proficiencies: The Imp is proficient with its own natural weapons.

    Features:

    Body of Mischief: The Imp loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basicaly dark vision 60 foots). Imps are tiny outsiders with a base speed of 20 feet and a natural Sting attack that delivers 1d4+Str damage and an injected poison, as described below. The Imp gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus.

    Poison Sting: Starting at first level, whenever an Imp that successfully strikes a foe with a sting attack, the struck foe must make a Fortitude save (DC is 10 + 1/2 Imp's HD + Imp's Con) or be poisoned. The initial damage is 1d4 Dex, with the secondary damage being 1d4 Dex.

    The poison grows more virulent as the Imp increases in HD. At 2HD it increases to an initial damage of 1d4 dex, with secondary damage of 1d4+1 dex. At 4HD it increases to 1d4 dex with secondary damage of 2d4 dex.

    Imps may change the poison they bear within their tails with a painful process: They must intentionally inject themselves with a poison. The poison must be deliverable through injury and involve ability damage. This process overrides their natural immunity and requires the Imp bear the full effects of the poison (no save permitted) to be successful. There is a 50% chance their bodies will take to the new poison and their sting attack will deliver the new poison thereafter. In the event of failure, the imp may elect to repeat the process with a fresh dose at any time.

    Ominous Form: A first level imp can assume the form of creatures of ill omen, to better observe his quarry and to attack them in creative and frightening ways. Imps can assume an alternate form as a standard action once a day, with an additional daily use for every 2 HD it has, but these forms are restricted to Monstrous Spiders (Small or Medium), Ravens, Rats and Boars.

    This ability continues to improve as the Imp gains HD:
    Spoiler
    Show
    At 6HD, the Imp can change form with enough skill that any equipment they bear is adapted to fit their new shape, as opposed to simply falling to the ground. Alternately, the Imp may elect to have equipment fade from view, while remaining on the Imp's person, to better hide its identity or to better manage equipment that their assumed form cannot bear (such as gloves on a raven).

    At 12HD, the Imp can assume the form of a large Monstrous Spider or a Dire Boar.

    At 18HD, the Imp can assume the form of a huge Monstrous Spider or a Dire Boar advanced to huge size with +6 Str and +6 Con.

    Devil: At second level, the Imp becomes immune to poison and gains a resistance to fire equal to its HD, with resistance to acid and cold equal to half its HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness. Imps have telepathy out to 40 feet, which extends an additional 10 feet for each HD after the second.

    Imps of second level gain the evil and lawful subtypes, and their natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawful aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

    Hell skin: The Imp gains DR/good equal to half its HD and SR=11+HD.

    Dark Chicanery: Imps practice dark talents to better keep out of the path of vigilant paladins, to see those arcane diagrams that amateur diabolists inevitably use to keep them imprisoned and to find prime targets to lead astray. A second level Imp can use Detect Good and Detect Magic 1/hour for every HD it has, and Invisibility 1/day for every two HD it has.
    The Imp's spell-like abilities continue to improve:
    Spoiler
    Show


    At 9HD, the Imp can spend two uses of its Invisibility ability to effectively cloak itself in Greater Invisibility.

    At 15HD, the Imp is so capable with its Detect Good ability that it effectively has Blindsense 30' for the purposes of detecting good creatures. The detection effect persists indefinitely, as does Detect Magic.

    Forked Tongue: Imps are often the go-to agents to the prime material plane, and strive to corrupt and manipulate novice summoners and callow mortals. To better facilitate this, Imps of second level or higher are under a constant Tongues effect, as an extraordinary ability, allowing them to speak any language they require.

    An Imp of second level can use Suggestion as an SLA once a day, with an additional use for every five HD it has (DC = 10 + 1/2 Imp HD + Cha). However, when an Imp uses Suggestion or Diplomacy to influence a creature to perform an action that moves their alignment towards evil (or to further depths of evil, for those who already have the evil alignment), the Imp gains another use of Suggestion for the day. The number of bonus 'Suggestion' effects an Imp accumulates in a single day cannot exceed half the number of daily uses plus one. (An Imp that can use Suggestion 2/day could gain up to two bonus uses).

    Leathery Wings: Imps of second level or higher can use their natural wings to transport themselves about the battlefield. The imp may fly (10' per HD to a maximum of 50', perfect maneuverability), but has the restriction of having to start and end its turns on solid ground to do so.

    At fifth level, the Imp's wings are strong enough for it to stay aloft, and it loses the restriction.

    Changelog:
    Spoiler
    Show
    August 1st, 2010:
    • Changed from d8 to d6 HD.
    • Removed Hide as a class skill
    • Poison sting changed from 1d4 initial and 2d4 secondary to be 1d4 secondary. Scales up quickly.
    • Moved the alternate form option out of Dark Chicanery. It's now named 'Ominous Form' and remains a first level option. The other spell-likes are second level options, now.
    • Alternate form is now 1/day + 1 use for every 2 HD. Invisibility is 1/day for every 2 HD.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-01 at 11:56 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #1086
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    @Oslecamo: Just a minor thing, since I'm far from able to PEACH with any sort of accuracy. You didn't say how often it can use Dominate Monster per day.
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  7. - Top - End - #1087
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    So, should I give the Styx dragon the same growth rate as the red?

    Yeah, there were a few copy paste errors. Sorry about those. I thought I proofread the thing better than that. Changing improved grab and such to lower levels now.

    EDIT: Should I make the tail blades eventually give its enemies a stronger disease than stygian wasting? And did I overload 7th level a bit too much?

    Edit 2: electric bugaloo: Do all dragons start out medium sized? I Ask because somebody requested the black dragon but they normally start out as tiny sized.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-07-31 at 07:21 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #1088

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Edit 2: electric bugaloo: Do all dragons start out medium sized? I Ask because somebody requested the black dragon but they normally start out as tiny sized.
    As a rule of convenience yes. Starting as tiny raises a lot of playing problems because a tiny creature works in a much diferent way than a medium or bigger one. So if you start at 1st level you can't invest in "brute" resources. Then you would need to put two growths on the first few levels, and then your "tiny" stuff that you invested so far to survive is now useless. Taking monster levels shouldn't invalidate older strategies.

    Also, tiny by itself is a major advantage if used properly (+2 AC, +8 hide), and the dragon's first level is pretty overloaded as it is.

    Speaking of wich, the Sygian dragon should grow at the following rate:

    lv8-large
    lv12-huge
    lv19-Gargantuan.

    Stygian wasting is fine since it's DC escales with the dragon and anyway diseases take their time to work so it isn't that usefull unless it's mummy rot.

    And yes 7th level kinda overloaded. It should only grow to large at 8th level anyway.

    As for the int damage breath I don't see any problem making it work lie the original monster. Fort saves are pretty high on most monsters and those with lower fort usually have excellent int. Just make sure you give it at higher levels of the class.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-31 at 07:40 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #1089
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    With your thoughts on tiny size, what's your take on my Imp, Oslecamo?

  10. - Top - End - #1090
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    Thumbs up Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Anyone mind doing the Golothoma(Elder evils Pg.118)?


    Btw, love the topic people~

  11. - Top - End - #1091
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I gave the Styx dragon an ability that I thought fit thematically (Called Stygian influence. I'm not sure where to put it though so I put it where Stygian scales is right now). I'll think of a few more later but right now I'm off to Iron man 2 (Never seen it)

    I also edited the SLA entry to state that the SLAs don't effect the dragon's alignment. I'm not sure whether or not they normally do so I figured I should put it in to be safe.

    If anybody has any good ideas for an ability feel free to mention it.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-07-31 at 08:10 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #1092

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    With your thoughts on tiny size, what's your take on my Imp, Oslecamo?
    Kinda still thinking about it. The 1st level may be too loaded. Tiny size is excellent for a skirmisher. That's why damn cats are so strong. 20 foot base speed kinda offsets that tough.

    I notice you make the poison at will. I would sugest you to do it as the other poison creatures so far that have a limited amount of poison per day.

    Alternate form on top of the rest on the 1st level is definetely too much with all of the above. But the 2nd level is kinda too loaded as well. DR, extra SLAs and flight. At least make it a limited number of transformations per day. Monstruous spider alone unlocks climbing and web.

    Invisibility 1/hour at 1st level is definetely wrong. Stuff is very fragile at those levels, and pretty much nothing has defenses against invisibility. You can easily sneak around and backstab people at your leisure.

    So overall:
    -Reduce the HD since imps are kinda suposed to be fragile.
    -Only one good save(see above).
    -Move either the invisibility or alternate form to 2nd level. Make them per day, not per hour. Per hour abilities are specially abuseable at low levels.
    -Remove the bonus to spellcasting.
    -Tone down the poison.
    -Save DCs of SLAs 10+1/2 HD+Stat so it scales properly.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-31 at 08:10 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #1093
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The trouble with imps is that being tiny, they have to enter an opponent's square to deliver poison. I considered that handicap, on top of the creature's particularly low damage, enough for the readily used poison and invisibility.

    Invisibility on the original creature is at will, so 1/day seems particularly limiting.

    As it stands, the imp can generally go invisible once per encounter, to get into melee against a particular foe (to enter their square), deliver poison where it's needed. Beyond that, most low level imps are going to use alternate form to get a shape more suitable for battle (boar). At mid level, when it can go invisible multiple times per encounter, it nonetheless has to use an action to do so, which plays into the whole economy of actions & how that impacts game balance.

    Make both invisibility and alter self into 1/day abilities and the creature is totally gimped. You've got a melee combatant at early levels that's got maybe a total +5 to AC from size/natural armor (nothing to write home about) & the bonus +2 to hit, but is provoking an attack of opportunity pretty much whenever it wants to attack, assuming the opponent has half a brain. It can't approach a fight in a straightforward manner, so it needs the ways to approach the fight laterally. As a result, it gets alternate forms and invisibility.

    The base saves & attack progression are taken straight from the Erinyes.

    So unless I'm missing something, I can't make the changes you suggest in good conscience.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-07-31 at 09:20 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #1094

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    The trouble with imps is that being tiny, they have to enter an opponent's square to deliver poison. I considered that handicap, on top of the creature's particularly low damage, enough for the readily used poison and invisibility.

    Invisibility on the original creature is at will, so 1/day seems particularly limiting.

    As it stands, the imp can generally go invisible once per encounter, to get into melee against a particular foe (to enter their square), deliver poison where it's needed.
    Tiny size+ 4 ranks in hide means it has +12 hide at 1st level before Dex modifier and competence item. They don't need invisibility to go unnoticed. Heck, they're tiny, they can hide in an ally's backpack!

    Aproach unnoticed, get suprise round, move into the enemy square, they can't make Aoos because it's the suprise round, proceed to deliver poison. Invisibility for when the going gets tough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Beyond that, most low level imps are going to use alternate form to get a shape more suitable for battle (boar).
    Precisely. With your version they have no less than three quite powerfull strategies at 1st level. Spammable invisibility, tank-boar, and entangling spider. Something needs to go out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    At mid level, when it can go invisible multiple times per encounter, it nonetheless has to use an action to do so, which plays into the whole economy of actions & how that impacts game balance.
    Action economy is nothing when compared to Action Reality.

    Enemy: Hmm what?
    Imp: Invisibility-backed SNEAK ATTACK!
    Enemy: Ouch! I counter attack!
    Imp:No, that was the suprise round. Now we actually roll iniative
    Enemy: Hey wait...
    Imp:Cool I won! Invisibility again sucker!
    Enemy: Ok now I get to act...Wait I can't see you! I can't take any meaningfull actions!
    Imp:SNEACK ATTACK from outside your counter-attack range sucker!
    Enemy:The poison! It burns us!
    Imp:Yes hahaha! While you run around trying to catch me, I buy time for the poison to strike again! Victory is mine!
    Enemy: THE ACTION ECONOMY! IT DOES'T DO ANYTING!


    Ahem, action economy rant aside, thing is that spammable invisibility is quite abuseable. It doesn't matter that your oponent can act if he doesn't know where you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    Make both invisibility and alter self into 1/day abilities and the creature is totally gimped. You've got a melee combatant at early levels that's got maybe a total +5 to AC from size/natural armor & the bonus +2 to hit, but is provoking an attack of opportunity pretty much whenever it wants to attack, assuming the opponent has half a brain.
    It doesn't matter if it has two brains. The imp has +12 hide minimum. It can sneak up on anything at those levels. Even a druid would have trouble seeing him coming.

    If you have allies so much the better. Have the fighter move nearby the enemy. There, if he tries to move more than 5 foot away from you then he takes Aoo from the fighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    It can't approach a fight in a straightforward manner, so it needs the ways to approach the fight laterally. As a result, it gets alternate forms and invisibility.
    SKILLS! You gave him 6+int mod at 1st level!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    The base saves & attack progression are taken straight from the Erinyes.
    Well yes the Erinyes doesn't start tiny (wich again is an advantage, not an handicap. Large creatures outreach their oponents, tiny ones just sneak under their noses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    So unless I'm missing something, I can't make the changes you suggest in good conscience.
    You're understimating tiny size a lot. That +8 bonus to hide means nobody will see him coming even whitout magic backup. And then it's a free +2 to AC and to hit. Lv 1 imp with 18 Dex and 14 Con and Weapon finesse has +16 Hide, 20 AC (+2 size, +4 Dex, +2 Nat, +2 leather armor wich you take no penalty for wearing even whitout proefeciency), and +7 to hit. Those are excellent combat statistics. Your oponent has to see you coming first, and then he "just" needs to hit your 20 AC. Even a raging water orc barbarian 1 has only +9 to hit.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-07-31 at 09:36 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1095
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    that Imp class is an AWESOME 1-level dip for a rogue. And the way oslecamo puts it.. invisibilty should be more limited in use. Having it at level 1 or 2 is crazy as it is. Making it usable many times per day is even crazier.

  16. - Top - End - #1096
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Oslecamo: On illithids... well, screw LoM. 3.5 was never good on the fluff angle anyways. Illithids are behind-the-scenes manipulators, dammit! My paradigm is the only paradigm!

    As for the updated illithid: +int at all levels is fine and dandy if you're not actually getting casting levels, but +cha at all levels seems a bit excessive.
    Might want to make the SLAs PLAs instead: specifically, charm and dominate would work a lot better as X-like-abilities than charm person and dominate person.

    For the ulitharid, drop some of the charisma bonuses and give it +2 strength/+2 constitution. They're dire illithids. Also, you didn't include the thing about the additional tentacles: an ulitharid has 6, not 4. Additionally, they're longer and stronger: might want to make them deal more damage die, have longer reach, etc.
    Also: it's an advanced illithid. The pinnacle of illithid-y-ness. Greater illithids. I'd definitely make the prerequisite a full 8 levels in the illithid class- it seems rather pointless to have an ulitharid that's not a full illithid.

    Hyudra: Invisibility, multiple times per day, at level one? Seems powerful. A caster needs a feat to maybe do invisibility once per day at level one. I'd delay that 'till level 2, at least.
    Otherwise, I think it looks good.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I was trying to read up on hide, anticipating the discussion of the +8 hide bonus, but couldn't find where in the SRD it talks about what Hide actually does. Lots on the modifiers and whatnot, and techniques you can use while hiding, but nothing on the general benefit. The last roguish character I played was a Factotum, a while back, and I didn't invest points in Hide. Beyond that was a Beguiler in a short lived campaign 2 years ago, and I used invisibility when I saw the need.

    Alright, fair enough. I'm not sure I like how good a dip it is for rogues, but I'll make the changes you suggest tomorrow, or see if I can find workarounds.

    Can you clarify on what you mean by: "Save DCs of SLAs 10+1/2 HD+Stat so it scales properly."?
    Unless I'm having a total brain fart, none of the SLAs require Save DCs.

  18. - Top - End - #1098

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    As for the updated illithid: +int at all levels is fine and dandy if you're not actually getting casting levels, but +cha at all levels seems a bit excessive.
    Yeah I tought as much. Changed it to either +1 to int or Cha at each level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Might want to make the SLAs PLAs instead: specifically, charm and dominate would work a lot better as X-like-abilities than charm person and dominate person.
    No they wouldn't. PLAs work in a much more complex manner than SLAs. Plus psionic charm person demands concentration wich kinda sucks at 2nd level when the mind flayer gets it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    For the ulitharid, drop some of the charisma bonuses and give it +2 strength/+2 constitution. They're dire illithids.
    Stronger, faster...Ok, I get it. But so I change it so it gets either int or cha boost each level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also, you didn't include the thing about the additional tentacles: an ulitharid has 6, not 4.
    Done ages ago. The mind flayer class keeps growing tentacles with extra HD so at level 12 it should have 6 whetever he took the prc or not. Funny how people keep missing that detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Additionally, they're longer and stronger: might
    want to make them deal more damage die, have longer reach, etc.
    Size increase at 1st level. Natural weapons automatically deal more damage and have more reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also: it's an advanced illithid. The pinnacle of illithid-y-ness. Greater illithids. I'd definitely make the prerequisite a full 8 levels in the illithid class- it seems rather pointless to have an ulitharid that's not a full illithid.
    Why not? I want to make mind flayer 1/caster 7/ulitharid 4 a viable build. There's more than one path to absolute power for the mind flayers!

    Hyudra:
    Ok I'll admit that the hide rules could've been better written but basically hide works as a nonmagical invisibility. If you suceed they can't see you but you can see them. You just need some kind of cover/concealment to do it. Actualy all that invisibility does is give you a +30 bonus to hide and remove the need for cover/concealment.

    Also, I sugest you read your class again to find the SLA that demands a save.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-01 at 06:59 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I have a question, does the Ulitharid's Alien Hide stack with the Mind Flayer's natural armor bonus equal to his Int or Cha modifier, wichever is higher?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trodon View Post
    I have a question, does the Ulitharid's Alien Hide stack with the Mind Flayer's natural armor bonus equal to his Int or Cha modifier, wichever is higher?
    Yes, added a note to make it clear.

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    Touched up the Imp.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Someone put a lot of questions on a PM and I'll put them here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    1) Put Gloom Dagger at level 1, no reason to make every level 1 Gloom buy a dagger for a level. If the point of the race is that they have a dagger that is part of them and kills things, let them have it.
    Every monsters have lots of abilities. I can't put them all on the 1st level. And the gloom dagger is suposed to be a secondary ability, while quitiscience is a primary.

    Just don't be cheap and burn 1 GP for a dagger. Or get a club/quarterstaff for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    2) Maybe add some way to have the Gloom be able to TWF with his dagger if he has the feats.
    The gloom isn't suposed to be a TWFer. I'm honestly sick of all the " Rogues always dual wield daggers!" thingy. What happened to the assassins who kill just with one weapon? The gloom picture clearly shows one dagger. If you want another burn the resources for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    3) Not that he has the feats or anything, since he needs Weapon Finesse, and the TWFing tree is terrible. You could give him Weapon Finesse on his dagger for free to.
    You get true strike SLA at 2nd level to help you hit stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    4) Honestly, the Rogue class needs it too, but you could give the Gloom some way of getting SA, that would be great, since like the Rogue, his only option is to beg the Wizard for a grease, since he can't actually get anyone flat footed ever.
    Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight. Flanking. Geting SA conditions is quite easy. The true problem is all the stuff immune to it, and the gloom class takes care of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    Obviously all those things at once might make him slightly more powerful than a Rogue, but a Rogue is by no means very powerful in the first place.
    It is already stronger than a basic rogue. Full sneak attack progression, medium Bab, 8 skill points per level, +5 Dex over 20 levels, +4 Int over 20 levels, several powerfull SLAs, extra actions, terror and other goodies. The only thing the rogue can do better is detect traps and evade area blasts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    Especially at 1-2, he's just a Whisper Gnome Rogue but worse, moving Gloom Blade down to one, giving him weapon finesse on it, would be a start, since if played by the rules, the Whisper Gnome Rogue can't do that until level 3 (or until he can get a feycraft X, but whatever).
    It is an outsider not an humanoid. That alone makes him immune to a lot of nasty low level stuff out there and opens several doors later. A lot of people miss that.

    As for weapon finesse it would be plain unfair for the gloom to get it when the other "rogues" need to wait untill lv 3 to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    That was just one class, I also had a more general complaint:

    All your monsters do something stupid at level 1.

    If someone plays a Mindflayer, or a beholder, or a medusa, it's because they want to do those things. Stun people, eye ray people, stone people.

    But instead, all three of those monsters (and I get a general impression, lots of other ones, but I didn't pay as much attention to others) are just things that make attack actions with natural weapons at level 1. Which is not at all the point of the class.
    And if I want to play a necromancer that animes his oponent's corpses I need to wait untill lv 5 minimum. The dread necromancer class can only do it at lv 7.

    Some things just shouldn't be available at 1st level. Gaze attaks and auto-scaling area save or die are some of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar
    The Beholder at least gets to once a day sleep a single person if he hits the touch attack and they fail the save, but even still, playing a Beholder at level 1, you could plausibly go 2-3 days without ever putting anyone to sleep.

    I think you should modify those classes, to be doing the things they are supposed to. Like Maybe the Mindflayer can lock down one person in a battle of wills, where he stuns one person, but has to maintain concentration (and they have to fail a will save, and maybe they get more saves to get out).

    Or the Medusa Glare can just entangle people at level 1, but fluff it as them feeling heavy.

    That sort of thing.
    You seem to be missing one of the main bases of this project.

    All monster abilities should feel usefull for all 20 levels.

    Lock down one person by sacrificing your turn with save every turn allowed? That's plainly weak. And not that mind-flayerish at all. The mind flayer may as well bludgeon his oponent to death with his tentacles.

    Entangling gaze on the other hand would probably be too powerfull. Spammable entangle is quite powerfull at 1st level and the main thing that makes the dragonfire adept an actualy good class.

    So no. Designing low level abilities just for 1st level isn't worth the effort. The mind flayer gets telepathy and tentacles.
    The beholder gets to ignore difficult terrain and other floor obstacles.
    The medusa gets poison and martial weapon proefeciency.

    This isn't 4e where you start with all the tricks and then get upgraded versions of them. You start as a lowly "infant" bein that can only do some limited stuff and then learn to use your more special abilities as you level up, and get all the reportoire when the class ends.

    Hyudra:
    Much better. I'll add it to the list now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Yeah I tought as much. Changed it to either +1 to int or Cha at each level.
    ...That is fantastic.


    Done ages ago. The mind flayer class keeps growing tentacles with extra HD so at level 12 it should have 6 whetever he took the prc or not. Funny how people keep missing that detail.
    The ulitharid gains tentacles above and beyond what a mindflayer would.


    Size increase at 1st level. Natural weapons automatically deal more damage and have more reach.
    I want you to look at the picture of the ulitharid. See how he has six tentacles? And see how 2 of said tentacles are about 3x as long as the other tentacles?


    Why not? I want to make mind flayer 1/caster 7/ulitharid 4 a viable build. There's more than one path to absolute power for the mind flayers!
    My point is, why the hell are you taking levels in ulitharid when you could be taking levels of mindflayer? The point of an ulitharid is that it has everything a mindflayer has, but more. It's like a black ethergaunt as opposed to a blue ethergaunt.

    But, y'know what? It's your class. I personally feel strongly about mindflayers, because they're my favorite monster race, and I happen to look at them in a specific, rather unique way. So when I make my psionic mindflayer, I'll do things my way, and you'll have things your way, and everybody's happy!
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  24. - Top - End - #1104

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    The ulitharid gains tentacles above and beyond what a mindflayer would.
    Yes. They deal more damage and have more reach and grapple better than those of a normal mind flayer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I want you to look at the picture of the ulitharid. See how he has six tentacles? And see how 2 of said tentacles are about 3x as long as the other tentacles?
    He's cheating you. He can actualy extend all his tentacles to that lenght!

    On a more serious note, nothing on the original monster sugests it has two tentacles stronger than normal.

    On an even more serious note, a dagger has as much reach as a greatsword.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    My point is, why the hell are you taking levels in ulitharid when you could be taking levels of mindflayer? The point of an ulitharid is that it has everything a mindflayer has, but more. It's like a black ethergaunt as opposed to a blue ethergaunt.
    Well, since you need 11 ranks in concentration to enter Ulitharid, you need to take something untill you can start taking Ulitharid levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    But, y'know what? It's your class. I personally feel strongly about mindflayers, because they're my favorite monster race, and I happen to look at them in a specific, rather unique way. So when I make my psionic mindflayer, I'll do things my way, and you'll have things your way, and everybody's happy!
    No I'm not.
    I created this thread to share and critique ideas. I want people to review my works as much as I review others. Even if your view of the Mind Flayer differs of that of D&D, I would greatly apreciate if you consider my mind flayer/ulitharid worth taking whitout being broken and if they look like they would be fun to play. Forget the fluff for a moment if needed, and tell me if this tentacle/psionic monster would be worthy of a campaign.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-01 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Forget the fluff for a moment if needed, and tell me if this tentacle/psionic monster would be worthy of a campaign.
    Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in my last statement: the only reason I'm not liking your ulitharid is the fluff. Otherwise, it's fine.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-01 at 05:43 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Every monsters have lots of abilities. I can't put them all on the 1st level. And the gloom dagger is suposed to be a secondary ability, while quitiscience is a primary.
    His primary ability is to not make noise? That's an incredibly bad character that I would never want to play.

    Party: Oh look a Dragon.
    Gloom: I very quietly watch everyone else die.

    His primary ability is to hit things with his dagger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Just don't be cheap and burn 1 GP for a dagger. Or get a club/quarterstaff for free.
    It's not about being cheap, it's about not having something thematically appropriate to the monster. It makes no sense for a creature with a dagger made of his soul to buy a regular dagger for one level and one level only, and have to run around with a dagger not made of his soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    You get true strike SLA at 2nd level to help you hit stuff.
    So you are only allowed to hit things once a day per HD and only every other round on a Dex based class that makes damage from hitting things multiple times? Oh I mean sure, at level 5 you get to hit things once per round, and level 10 you finally get to hit things more than once a round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hide skill. Hide in Plain Sight. Flanking. Geting SA conditions is quite easy. The true problem is all the stuff immune to it, and the gloom class takes care of it.
    Those... don't actually work. I mean, I suppose since you are already limiting him to hitting once every other round, he can actually flank, unlike a rogue who actually hits people at least once a round. But Hide in Plain Sight comes after you could buy a ring of blink, and the Hide skill only works if you have concealment, which you can't if you are adjacent to someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    It is already stronger than a basic rogue. Full sneak attack progression, medium Bab, 8 skill points per level, +5 Dex over 20 levels, +4 Int over 20 levels, several powerfull SLAs, extra actions, terror and other goodies. The only thing the rogue can do better is detect traps and evade area blasts.
    So it's a Rogue that is more powerful at levels 10 plus in exchange for being weaker at levels 10 minus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Some things just shouldn't be available at 1st level. Gaze attaks and auto-scaling area save or die are some of those.
    Except that you can in fact make less powerful versions of those things. And when the thing you want to do is "Be a Mindflayer" it makes no sense to make a level 1 Mindflayer with no mind powers who doesn't do what mind flayers do. I mean, you might as well write "A level 1-5 Mindflayer has the Barbarian class, and then at level 6 turns into a real Minflayer and trades out those levels for something actually mindflayerish." Because a Mindflayer who can't use his mind to overpower you is not a Mindflayer at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    You seem to be missing one of the main bases of this project.

    All monster abilities should feel usefull for all 20 levels.

    Lock down one person by sacrificing your turn with save every turn allowed? That's plainly weak. And not that mind-flayerish at all. The mind flayer may as well bludgeon his oponent to death with his tentacles.
    Actually, the ability would beat all humanoids because it makes them drop their weapon. And you could just as easily make the ability not save every round, but have a two round duration, or any number of other things.

    It's more mind flayerish to stun thing with your mind than to attack people with tentacles, because Mindflayers don't even do that. They only use their tentacles in a grapple to extract, and on helpless prey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Entangling gaze on the other hand would probably be too powerfull. Spammable entangle is quite powerfull at 1st level and the main thing that makes the dragonfire adept an actualy good class.
    I think being single target would be a hefty limit. Much worse than a DFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    So no. Designing low level abilities just for 1st level isn't worth the effort. The mind flayer gets telepathy and tentacles.
    The beholder gets to ignore difficult terrain and other floor obstacles.
    The medusa gets poison and martial weapon proefeciency.
    Right, it's not worth letting level 1 monsters be in any way similar to the actual monster, you'd sooner just tell everyone who wants to play a specific monster from level 1 "No, play something else for a few levels because I don't care enough to bother letting people play Medusas at level 1." But you care enough to make leveled classes? That makes no sense.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malakar View Post
    It's more mind flayerish to stun thing with your mind than to attack people with tentacles, because Mindflayers don't even do that. They only use their tentacles in a grapple to extract, and on helpless prey.
    That's what I've been trying to say!

    Otherwise, though, I really don't see your problem. Just take friggin' weapon finesse as a gloom. And hide/flanking does happen to work to make sneak attack. It sortof says so in the SRD. Every sneak attack I have ever made has been from either hide, flanking or invisibility... And, really, it's more powerful in every way than a rogue.
    Right, it's not worth letting level 1 monsters be in any way similar to the actual monster, you'd sooner just tell everyone who wants to play a specific monster from level 1 "No, play something else for a few levels because I don't care enough to bother letting people play Medusas at level 1." But you care enough to make leveled classes? That makes no sense.
    Really? What's your problem? You seem to be pissed off at not just the individual classes, but by how Oslecamo is doing things. Most people are happy with it: if it's not broken, don't fix it. If you don't like the goddamn classes, then don't use the goddamn classes, or do what I'm doing and make your own.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-01 at 05:58 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Can somebody review the "Disease perfection" ability on the Styx dragon? I don't know whether or not its an appropriate power level.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Um, you accidently put it into the saves section instead of the class features section.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Thanks for pointing that out.
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