Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 45 of 50 FirstFirst ... 2035363738394041424344454647484950 LastLast
Results 1,321 to 1,350 of 1480
  1. - Top - End - #1321
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Yeah... I saw the comments on the tarrasque having too much before I actually read the class, and I thought, "That's ridiculous! It's the tarrasque, it needs some badass stuff... and besides, melee needs nice things, don't they?"
    But then I read it. It's too much.
    For one, there's a crapload of abilities on this thing. I just started reading through them, and by the time I got to reality tear, I thought I was reading something like a 15th level ability, not a 9th level one. It's clunky, and not at all fun to read.
    Brevity is the soul of wit. The smaller you can make the class, the more impressive it'll be.
    Occam's Razor: eliminate unnecessary variables. The best thing you can do with this class at this point is to get rid of some of the junk in there while still allowing it to function at the same level.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  2. - Top - End - #1322
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Oslescamo. A way to fix the Items part would be that when he absorbes the items he is forced to do the 8 hours of meditation before he gains the positive stuff from enchanted items. Thus the gems are already formed on the outside of the Tarrasques body and they are susceptible to Sunder now!

  3. - Top - End - #1323

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Brevity is the soul of wit. The smaller you can make the class, the more impressive it'll be.
    So would you rather most of the Tarrasque's abilities emulate spells directly so I can do more with lesser words ? Because I have 20 levels to fill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Occam's Razor: eliminate unnecessary variables. The best thing you can do with this class at this point is to get rid of some of the junk in there while still allowing it to function at the same level.
    Fine fine I get it. Cut down a lot of stuff:
    -Stomp no longer deals damage.
    -Augmented senses and Primal Sight removed.
    -Assimilation basically turns magic items into scales that work just like magic items and have the same vulnerabilities, removed poison thingy.
    -Tarrasque loses regen if it becomes immune to crit hits.
    -Dimensional colapse, Break and rend magic removed.
    -Some other abilities moved around to avoid dead levels.

  4. - Top - End - #1324
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Several questions on the Anaxim:
    1.) Can it's natural weapons be improved to masterwork and enchanted? Found "Weapons of Mass destruction".
    2.) Can it's natural armor be improved to masterwork and enchanted?
    3.) Do the bolter gun's provoke attacks of opportunity when fired in melee? As part of a full attack?
    4.) Thank you for this extensive resource for the creation of non-traditional characters.
    Last edited by NM020110; 2010-08-15 at 10:23 PM.
    Status: Recovering. ETA: 3 days

  5. - Top - End - #1325
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    So would you rather most of the Tarrasque's abilities emulate spells directly so I can do more with lesser words ? Because I have 20 levels to fill.
    Yeah, there's a lot of classes with 20 levels to fill. Most of them don't grant multiple abilities 3/4 of those levels, each of which requires 1-3 full paragraphs to explain.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  6. - Top - End - #1326
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Fine I'll add a clause to stop fortified/undead tarrasque shenigans.
    Cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Sue me for wanting to make material for my own use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post

    Rope trick. Never be suprised during sleep again. Didn't really need that many loops did I?
    See Invisibility + Dispel Magic. Or maybe just fly up into the thing. Oh yes, and you can notice Invisible things with a (high DC) Spot check. Or you can Track things to where they suddenly vanished, and figure out that they're hiding in such a manner (especially so if you're Tracking them through multiple instances of this). A wandering beholder with it's antimagic eye open. All of the above is a fully Core response. Depending on sources, you can also make use of Transdimensional Spell to use a weapon-like spell on the sleeping caster for a CdG. Doesn't do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Astral projection from your secret plane.
    Let's see... so you either need to spend the time to locate and secure a demiplane, or you need to create one (Genesis: Not a core spell). Oh yes, and you've got that pesky silvery cord (although it's marginally hard to cut), you're having mild difficulties getting new loot back, and unless you're running with Leadership/Nightmare shenanigans (a feat which explicitly requires specific DM permission...), and you're burning trapped loot every time.

    There's so many DM-input-required items in there to make good use of it that it's not really all that useful. Plus: that's a 9th level spell you're using. Vs. the Mr. T that could do this at... 10th or 15th... without much trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well that's for what reflex saves for half damage are for.
    Vs. a save DC of 10+1/2 level+Stat Mod. Oh yes, and the stat mod goes up by 1 every other level. Which means it's basically DC 10+Level+initial stat mod+boosts from magic items. AKA, at level 5, you're looking at roughly DC 20 or 25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Sigh read the first post. NONE of the monsters here get extra stats just for increasing size.
    Ah, cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hmm could swear it came at level 10. Well that was the point anyway, too sleepy to dig trough the MMs now.
    Well, yes, but he *is* a counter to everything. Which means he pretty much can't be countered, himself. You've set him up so that at level ten, basically nothing at about CR ten has a reasonable chance of taking him down. You've gone overboard, which is what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Hiders usually invest in Con and get stuff like small size to help hiding. Mr.T doesn't have much time to invest in Wis.
    No... he invests in Con, instead. Which he gets a bonus to. And he can pick up items for boosting Spot. And Spot is a class skill. Sure, you *can* hide from him ... if you focus on it heavily (Small size for +4, Reduce Person for another +4, max ranks in hide, Greater Shadow on padded armor for a +15 bonus to hide, good Dex score; you've got... about a +40 to Hide at 10th). Sure. But then you're not doing much of anything else, as you're heavily focused on stealth. But you're pretty much required to focus - heavily - to get past Mr. T, who basically just put ranks into it and went with his class features. Without focusing very much (just investing skill ranks, and into one of the most useful skills in the game, to boot), Mr. T is sitting here with a very high Spot modifier, to the point where you need to be a very focused hider to have a reasonable chance of bypassing him (simply maxing out ranks in Hide isn't going to cut it - you're going to need to spend wealth on it, blow a racial pick on it, invest in the primary stat, and so on).

    Your Mr. T is this way with basically everything. You must mega-focus in order to beat him at something he only mildly thought about. As a playable class, that's bad (as a BBEG, less so).
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    The shaddow dragon on the other hand completely blends into the shaddows gaining total concealment no matter how good your spot is.
    OK. So the Shadow Dragon waits for his breath to regen, comes out, and does a Flyby Attack dealing a negative level from his breath weapon... then flies back into hiding and watches Mr. T shrug off the negative levels.

    Mr. T watches where he goes, and maybe uses a Stomp to shake the dragon up a bit. Maybe readies an action to Grapple on the next flyby attack. But the Shadow Dragon has no method by which he can really injure Mr. T (he Regens it all away), while Mr. T has a few methods by which he can really injure the Shadow Dragon (slightly ranged attacks).

    And it's this way with virtually every critter in the library.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Fiend Folio.
    Ah... check the version on that... and they've really just Wizards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    That's 3.0, so yesterday. Check out the 3.5 CR 20 Worm that Walks from Elder Evils!
    Ah, Fiend Folio is 3.0... and okay, so one or two critters that might pose a threat at the appropriate CR... assuming they're min-maxed to do it. But then, the Worm that Walks qualifies for Epic casting, so anything's game, technically, at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    You know for someone acusing me of doing overpowered stuff you keep giving my monsters even more extra abilities (again check the first post, and do notice monster advancement rules apply to advancing monster HD, not class abilities).
    Okay, I got the size thing wrong due to not reading the entirety of the first post. Cool. However, he does end up with Con to Fort saves three times if he's got enough nonlethal to be at -10:
    1) Base Con to Fort.
    2) Prevail: "If the Tarrasque is droped to 50% of his normal HP it may add his Con modifier to his DR, SR, saves, skill checks, regeneration, resistances, ability DCs, attack and damage rolls even if it was already adding them."
    3) Prevail again: "If the Tarrasque is droped to 25% of his normal HP it may add his Str modifier to his DR, SR, regeneration, saves, skill checks, resistances, ability DCs, attack and damage rolls even if it was already adding them."
    Normally, he gets Con to Fort once. If he's below 50%, he gets Con to Fort twice. If he's below 25%, he gets Con to Fort thrice.

    ... or did you mean exactly 25%, and exactly 50%? Otherwise, as written, it's self stacking, and he gets his Con modifier to his Fort save three times. You're going to need to seriously cheese up that Wish to get the DC high enough that he won't auto-pass.

    As for not failing on a roll of 1:
    Ancient Heart: 18 HD: "In adition the Tarrasque no longer fails saves on a natural 1."
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I'll share with you a terrible truth. When I DM I indeed need to dig a lot trough my MMs to find stuff to keep the batman wizard and codzilla challenged while making sure the noncasters are usefull as well. 90% of the times I "pimp" the monsters by changing their feats and advancing their HDs in half-cheesy ways.
    Ah... so basically, this stuff is intended for the DM in heavy-optimization play.

    Silly question: Why then do you write them up as PC-playable classes? Especially when many of them are written up as an existing base class + a bunch of other stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Monsters out of the book are unbalanced by themselves and every CR will have a wild variation of power. Some monsters are pathetic for their CR (the original Tarrasque that can be defeated by an unarmed fighter, wich is saying something), then we get stuff like the Clockwork Horror that throws at-will disjuctions at Cr 9.
    Well, yes. Many critters are weak for their official CR, many are strong for their official CR, many are paper tigers (strong offense, but they die almost immediately once you hit them).

    But you have to search - a lot - to find something that'll challenge your version of Mr. T in battle at an appropriate CR. If 50% of the published CR-10 monsters had a 50% or better chance of beating a fresh Mr. T-10 in a solo match, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.

    That's not the case, though. How many critters are there which, out of the box, can take down a Mr. T that spent all his feats on, say, Skill focus(Craft(Pastries)) or other utter wastes of feats??
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Depends a lot on the party and the challenge they're facing. For one the big size of the Tarrasque makes it unsuited for your typical dungeon crawling and socializing is basically impossible due to the large size alone.
    Terror From Below: Tremorsense+Burrow+no need to breath. Kicks in at 5th level, just after he's Large. In a typical dungeon crawl, he just follows the rest of the party underground (base move of 40, burrow of 20 - so the same speed as the Dwarf, Halfling, or Gnome, really; not slowing the party down a bit), and pops up when they go into a combat stance.

    Or can his Burrow not go through stone? Although Unstoppable Force (13th) mostly renders that moot, as he can just break intervening barriers.

    Okay, yes, he can't socialize very well. He's not built as a party face. Unless he, say, gets a Ring of Lesser Spell Storing loaded with Alter Self. Or just assimilates a wand of Alter Self. Lets him turn into other magical beasts for a period of time. Which *does* let him socialize just fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Spellcasters still offer important support spells, rogues still can do stuff whitout atracting the atention of everybody and everything in the country, warblades still Iron Heart Surge the sun, ect, ect.
    Ah... what support spell is important to him? Invisibility and Alter Self? Teleportation? He can get those through Assimilation. Of wands, if nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Now there's a good point, will change that now so it can't assimilate items of the same slot.
    Nifty...
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Yes it says so at the begginning if I'm not mistaken.
    Cool.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  7. - Top - End - #1327
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Draken's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Southern Wildlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by NM020110 View Post
    Several questions on the Anaxim:
    1.) Can it's natural weapons be improved to masterwork and enchanted? Found "Weapons of Mass destruction".
    2.) Can it's natural armor be improved to masterwork and enchanted?
    3.) Do the bolter gun's provoke attacks of opportunity when fired in melee? As part of a full attack?
    4.) Thank you for this extensive resource for the creation of non-traditional characters.
    1. Weapons of mass destruction is the point at which the weapons can be enchanted, yes. But from the start, they can be targeted with spells such as Greater Magical Weapon and the Weapon Enhancement line (which is technically an infusion).

    2. It cannot. But Lesser Divine Artifice indicates that the anaxim's body is a suitable target for Magical Vestment (giving an armor enhancement bonus to AC) and Armor Enhancement spells (infusions).

    3. "A bolter gun is a ranged weapon". So yes, it causes an attack of opportunity. Bolter guns are not natural weapons.

    4. Not really directed solely at me. But on behalf of the community, I thank you for the thanks.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Spoiler
    Show

    Homebrewing

  8. - Top - End - #1328
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AustontheGreat1's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    I live in Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Tsochar(LoM pg. 121)



    CLASS
    Spoiler
    Show

    Hit Die: d4

    TSOCHAR
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Parasitic Body, Alien Mind, +1 Int

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Improved Grab, +1 Dex

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Wear Flesh, +1 Int

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Alien Flesh, Constrict, +1 Dex[/table]

    Class Skills: ((6 + Int. Modifier) x 4 at first level) A Tsocharís class skills are Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.

    Class Features
    Proficiencies: Tsochari are proficient only with their own natural weapons.

    Parasitic Body: At first level, a Tsochar loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and gains aberration traits (essentially darkvision 60ft.). Tsochari are small aberrations with the shapechanger subtype. They can slither along the ground at a speed of 20ft. and they have a climb speed equal to their land speed. Having a climb speed mean that a Tsochar receives a +8 racial bonus to all climb checks and always take 10 on climb checks even when rushed or threatened. Additionally, Tsochari may use their dexterity modifiers in place of their strength modifiers when making climb checks. At first level, Tsochari have two natural tentacle attacks that deal 1d4 damage each. A Tsochar gains an additional tentacle attack for every 5 HD it possesses. These tentacles are equipped with sharp barbs. At 6 HD the Tsochar begins to produce a potent poison and may deliver this poison whenever it deals damage with his constrict attack. This poison deals 1d3 damage as its initial and secondary damage. A successful fortitude save (DC = 10 + Ĺ the Tsocharís HD + the Tsocharís Constitution Modifier) negates the poison. These tentacles do allow the Tsochari to wield weapons and manipulate objects normally. Tsochari speak their own language and common, and may speak an additional language for every point of their intelligence modifier.

    Lastly, a Tsochar receives a bonus to its armor class equal to its constitution score in the form of a natural armor bonus.

    Alien Mind (Ex): A Tsochar can speak telepathically with any creature that has a language within 10ft. The range of this ability increases by an additional 10ft, for every 2 HD the Tsochar gains after the first.

    Ability Increases: A Tsochar receives a permanent increase to its Intelligence score at each odd numbered Tsochar level as well as a permanent increase to its dexterity score at each even numbered Tsochar level. At 4th level, assuming the Tsochar has taken all 4 levels available, the increases total at +2 Intelligence and +2 Dexterity.

    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Tsochar must hit with two tentacle attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Additionally, Tsochari receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

    Wear Flesh (Ex): A Tsochar can bore its way into a helpless living creatureís body, slipping its ropy tendrils into the spaces between organs and muscles and disappearing into the victim. The victim must be the same size as the Tsochar or larger, and the process requires 1 minute. The Tsochar can choose to replace or inhabit the victim (see below). Incorporeal creatures and constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead are immune to this ability. A Tsochar can abandon a body it has inhabited or replaced with a full-round action that deals 3d6 points of damage to the host. A Tsochar can be forced to abandon the body by a remove disease or dispel evil spell (the caster must succeed on a caster level check (DC = 10 + the Tschar's HD + the Tsochar's intelligence modifier) to expel the monster, which deals damage as described above) or a heal or limited wish spell (which automatically succeeds and causes no damage to the host).

    Inhabit: The Tsochar leaves its victim alive and aware. Any time it cares to, it can inflict indescribable agony on its host as a standard action, dealing up to 1d6 for every 2 HD the Tsochar possesses or as little as 1d6 points of damage and requiring the host to succeed on a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the Tsochar's HD + the Tsochar's intelligence modifier) or be nauseated by the pain for 2d4 rounds. The Tsochar chooses how much damage it deals with this attack. The Tsochar can take no physical actions while inhabiting a host, but it can use purely mental actions (such as communicating with its host by means of its telepathy power and threatening to injure or kill the host unless the host does as the monster wishes). When the host takes damage (other than damage the Tsochar inflicts on it), the inhabiting Tsochar takes half that damage. For example, if the host takes 28 points of cold damage from a cone of cold spell, the Tsochar takes 14 points of cold damage. A Tsochar inhabiting a humanoidís body feeds on the creatureís blood and tissues, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage per day. A successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the Tsochar's HD + the Tsochar's constitution modifier) reduces this damage by half. Over the course of days, frail humanoids carrying Tsochari sicken and die, although Tsochari are clever enough to direct their hosts to acquire curative magic to keep themselves alive indefinitely, if the situation calls for it.

    Replace: The Tsochar bores out the victimís nervous system, killing the victim. It then animates the body, effectively acting as the nervous system of the dead host. The body remains alive, hosting the Tsochar. This functions like a polymorph spell into the victimís exact form, except that the Tsochar can remain in the victimís form for up to a year, and it leaves the victimís corpse behind when it chooses to end the effect. The Tsochar uses the victimís physical ability scores in place of its own, as described by polymorph. The Tsochar can remain in this form indefinitely, but once it abandons the form, it cannot reanimate the body. Tsochari that have replaced a humanoid slowly devour their new shell from the inside out. A replaced body takes 1d4 points of Constitution drain per month, which does not heal naturally and can be restored only by magical means. A successful Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the Tsochar's HD + the Tsochar's constitution modifier) reduces this damage by half. Naturally, Tsochari imposters choose to abandon bodies they have replaced before they become too weak to be serviceable.

    Additionally, A Tsochar that replaces a spellcaster retains any arcane spells prepared by the dead character, and can cast them as if it had prepared the spells itself. The Tsochar must meet the minimum ability score needed to cast the spell based on the type of caster replaced (Intelligence for a wizard, for example), or else the spell is unavailable to it. If the Tsochar replaces a spontaneous caster such as a sorcerer, it retains the available spell slots of the dead spellcaster, and can use any spells the dead host knew. In either case, the Tsochar cannot regain spells or spell slots it expends from the dead characterís spellcasting ability.

    Alien Flesh (Ex): Despite a Tsocharís frail and squishy appearance, their aberrant flesh is actually quite resistant to damage. At 4th level, the Tsochar gains damage reduction equal to Ĺ half its HD. This DR is penetrated by adamantine. The Tsochar also gains spell resistance equal to its HD + 11 and a resistance to cold damage equal to its HD.

    Constrict (Ex): A Tsochar deals 2d4+2 points of damage with a successful grapple check. When a Tsochar deals damage by means of its constrict attack, it injects its victim with poison.

    STUFF
    Spoiler
    Show
    OK, here it is ready for your judgement. I'm going to be honest, I am dead tired and it will probably show in the class. Good Night.
    Last edited by AustontheGreat1; 2010-08-17 at 12:09 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #1329
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Okay, I made the edits Hyudra suggested. Looking for ways to implement Oslecamo's suggestions now.

    Here's the class. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...postcount=1055
    Avatar by the wonderful BeckyPages. My OC Curtain Call.

    My Twitter account, where I will mainly post images of minis I've painted.

  10. - Top - End - #1330

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    See Invisibility + Dispel Magic.
    Wich only casters can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Or maybe just fly up into the thing.
    Doesn't work, the creator can decide who gets to enter or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Oh yes, and you can notice Invisible things with a (high DC) Spot check. Or you can Track things to where they suddenly vanished, and figure out that they're hiding in such a manner (especially so if you're Tracking them through multiple instances of this).
    Well, but aren't you arguing a few lines below that "normal" characters can't afford to buff their skills enough to do such things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    A wandering beholder with it's antimagic eye open. All of the above is a fully Core response. Depending on sources, you can also make use of Transdimensional Spell to use a weapon-like spell on the sleeping caster for a CdG. Doesn't do it.
    Again, only if you're a caster walking around with anti-inv, dispel magic, spot and track (since it's easy to just put the rope trick in some shaddowy corner). Wizards/sorcerors/clerics get neither spot or track, so that leaves druids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Let's see... so you either need to spend the time to locate and secure a demiplane, or you need to create one (Genesis: Not a core spell).
    Well at the lack of a personal plane a hiding place in the middle of some obscure mansion works too. Big T has no way to find oponents at big range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Oh yes, and you've got that pesky silvery cord (although it's marginally hard to cut), you're having mild difficulties getting new loot back,
    Several teleportation spells for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    and unless you're running with Leadership/Nightmare shenanigans (a feat which explicitly requires specific DM permission...), and you're burning trapped loot every time.
    50 GP at 17th level is less than spare change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    There's so many DM-input-required items in there to make good use of it that it's not really all that useful. Plus: that's a 9th level spell you're using. Vs. the Mr. T that could do this at... 10th or 15th... without much trouble.Vs. a save DC of 10+1/2 level+Stat Mod. Oh yes, and the stat mod goes up by 1 every other level. Which means it's basically DC 10+Level+initial stat mod+boosts from magic items. AKA, at level 5, you're looking at roughly DC 20 or 25.
    At level 5 you can just coup de grace it. At higher levels there's plenty of ways of casters to cranck up their DCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Ah, cool.Well, yes, but he *is* a counter to everything. Which means he pretty much can't be countered, himself. You've set him up so that at level ten, basically nothing at about CR ten has a reasonable chance of taking him down. You've gone overboard, which is what I said.
    Well yes I've gone overboard and it still needs tweaking but still your sugestions if fully implemented would leave it at a lower power level than now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    No... he invests in Con, instead. Which he gets a bonus to. And he can pick up items for boosting Spot. And Spot is a class skill. Sure, you *can* hide from him ... if you focus on it heavily (Small size for +4, Reduce Person for another +4, max ranks in hide, Greater Shadow on padded armor for a +15 bonus to hide, good Dex score; you've got... about a +40 to Hide at 10th). Sure. But then you're not doing much of anything else, as you're heavily focused on stealth. But you're pretty much required to focus - heavily - to get past Mr. T, who basically just put ranks into it and went with his class features. Without focusing very much (just investing skill ranks, and into one of the most useful skills in the game, to boot), Mr. T is sitting here with a very high Spot modifier, to the point where you need to be a very focused hider to have a reasonable chance of bypassing him (simply maxing out ranks in Hide isn't going to cut it - you're going to need to spend wealth on it, blow a racial pick on it, invest in the primary stat, and so on).
    Well of course slipping directly under Mr.T's nose has to be hard otherwise he becomes another joke monster that can't find his oponents and they dance around him laughing merrilly. Druid for example can get hide as class skill(with several other goodies) with a single feat, turn into a tiny creature and then stack some cheap buffs like camouphlage (lv1, +10 to hide) on top to get a simply sick bonus to hide.

    Or you simply hide behind terrain as not even the best spot in the world can see trough a wall.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Your Mr. T is this way with basically everything. You must mega-focus in order to beat him at something he only mildly thought about. As a playable class, that's bad (as a BBEG, less so).
    Well you also need to mega-focus in order to beat a wizard using rope trick as you yourself showed. My Mr T is as strong as a wizard then, that's good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    OK. So the Shadow Dragon waits for his breath to regen, comes out, and does a Flyby Attack dealing a negative level from his breath weapon... then flies back into hiding and watches Mr. T shrug off the negative levels.

    Mr. T watches where he goes, and maybe uses a Stomp to shake the dragon up a bit. Maybe readies an action to Grapple on the next flyby attack. But the Shadow Dragon has no method by which he can really injure Mr. T (he Regens it all away), while Mr. T has a few methods by which he can really injure the Shadow Dragon (slightly ranged attacks).

    And it's this way with virtually every critter in the library.
    Immortal vigor may have indeed gotten bit too strong, will work on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Ah... check the version on that... and they've really just Wizards.Ah, Fiend Folio is 3.0... and okay, so one or two critters that might pose a threat at the appropriate CR... assuming they're min-maxed to do it.
    But then, the Worm that Walks qualifies for Epic casting, so anything's game, technically, at that point.Okay, I got the size thing wrong due to not reading the entirety of the first post. Cool. However, he does end up with Con to Fort saves three times if he's got enough nonlethal to be at -10:
    1) Base Con to Fort.
    2) Prevail: "If the Tarrasque is droped to 50% of his normal HP it may add his Con modifier to his DR, SR, saves, skill checks, regeneration, resistances, ability DCs, attack and damage rolls even if it was already adding them."
    3) Prevail again: "If the Tarrasque is droped to 25% of his normal HP it may add his Str modifier to his DR, SR, regeneration, saves, skill checks, resistances, ability DCs, attack and damage rolls even if it was already adding them."
    Normally, he gets Con to Fort once. If he's below 50%, he gets Con to Fort twice. If he's below 25%, he gets Con to Fort thrice.

    ... or did you mean exactly 25%, and exactly 50%? Otherwise, as written, it's self stacking, and he gets his Con modifier to his Fort save three times. You're going to need to seriously cheese up that Wish to get the DC high enough that he won't auto-pass.
    Strong point. I'll remove the need of a save to finish it off, but still leave prevail so you need some good damage to take him down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    As for not failing on a roll of 1:
    Ancient Heart: 18 HD: "In adition the Tarrasque no longer fails saves on a natural 1."
    Ah... so basically, this stuff is intended for the DM in heavy-optimization play.

    Silly question: Why then do you write them up as PC-playable classes? Especially when many of them are written up as an existing base class + a bunch of other stuff?
    Ask all the other people who said they liked my work, they may be able to explain better than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Well, yes. Many critters are weak for their official CR, many are strong for their official CR, many are paper tigers (strong offense, but they die almost immediately once you hit them).

    But you have to search - a lot - to find something that'll challenge your version of Mr. T in battle at an appropriate CR. If 50% of the published CR-10 monsters had a 50% or better chance of beating a fresh Mr. T-10 in a solo match, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.
    No I'm not going to make an exhaustive statistical study of the hundreds of published monsters out there, specially when I myself almost never use them directly out of the box.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    That's not the case, though. How many critters are there which, out of the box, can take down a Mr. T that spent all his feats on, say, Skill focus(Craft(Pastries)) or other utter wastes of feats??
    Several actualy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Terror From Below: Tremorsense+Burrow+no need to breath. Kicks in at 5th level, just after he's Large. In a typical dungeon crawl, he just follows the rest of the party underground (base move of 40, burrow of 20 - so the same speed as the Dwarf, Halfling, or Gnome, really; not slowing the party down a bit), and pops up when they go into a combat stance.

    Or can his Burrow not go through stone? Although Unstoppable Force (13th) mostly renders that moot, as he can just break intervening barriers.

    Okay, yes, he can't socialize very well. He's not built as a party face. Unless he, say, gets a Ring of Lesser Spell Storing loaded with Alter Self. Or just assimilates a wand of Alter Self. Lets him turn into other magical beasts for a period of time. Which *does* let him socialize just fine.

    Ah... what support spell is important to him? Invisibility and Alter Self? Teleportation? He can get those through Assimilation. Of wands, if nothing else.
    You can get anything trough magic items. Even a commoner becomes a mighty oponent when loaded with equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of classes with 20 levels to fill. Most of them don't grant multiple abilities 3/4 of those levels, each of which requires 1-3 full paragraphs to explain.
    Well let's not exagerate so much. The last version of the Tarrasque had just four levels with two complicated abilities at the same time.

    But anyway replaced Immortal Vigor and Unstopable Force with simply a permanent Death Ward and Freedom of Movement effects.. They're basic caster buffs and togheter with the mindblank effect should make Big T immune to most nasty tricks out there.

    Crush replaced with Trample wich is a "standard" big monster ability. Devouring bite is basically Swallow Whole except it ignores freedom of movement.

    So how does Mr.T looks now?

  11. - Top - End - #1331
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kobold-Bard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Re Monster of Legend:
    - Wat type is the AC bonus, or is it untyped?
    - If none of the Legendary Power Abilities seem appropriate would taking two additional Fabled Power abilities be ok? (I say two since I assume the Legendary ones are supposed to be more powerful, if you think only taking one would be right then fair enough.)
    - Since they become Outsiders, what is their Native Plane?
    Last edited by Kobold-Bard; 2010-08-16 at 07:30 AM.
    Piratebold-Bard by Elder Tsofu | Backer #121 of the Giantitp Kickstarter | My homebrew
    Quote Originally Posted by OverlordJ View Post
    New law: Obey me or you'll be crushed by a MOUNTAIN.

  12. - Top - End - #1332
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hyudra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Tarrasque
    • The entry is in need of a spellcheck.
    • Really helps to make the entry readable, if you state in the ability descriptions when the abilities become available.
    • Re: Ability score increase; it helps if you state the totals. (Ie. At 20th level, the Tarrasque has +20 Str and +20 Con
    • Spellcraft seems a bit out of place.
    • "It's unable to do fine manipulation" would read better as "It is incapable of fine manipulation."
    • "it can talk in a gutural deep primal voice." -> What starting language?
    • "Rush:Once per minute the Tarrasque can quadriplicate his movement for one round as a free action." -> You probably mean quadruple. Unclear how this applies. Does this apply to jumps? If so, how? Does it boost any flight it picks up?
    • Stomp is incredibly powerful. Not only is the shockwave unrealistically large for a large creature, but prone is a devastating status effect that swings the economy of actions (it takes a crucial action to get up, and doing so opens you up to attack), and the difficult terrain just makes the Tarrasque even more of a battlefield controller (see Primal Roar, below).
    • Primal Roar comes across as devastatingly powerful. Especially for a sixth level ability. I get the general intent, but mobility is crucially important. The Tarrasque doesn't even have to give up much to do it, or think about conserving uses for later encounters (By 6th level he'll have +3 con bonus from class-derived ability bonuses, and easily +2 from initial stat distribution, probably +3 or +4).
      • Pit the Tarrasque6 against a Harpy4/Bard2. Spells only have a 50% chance of working, the harpy automatically loses flight, and likely takes damage & falls prone as part of the fall (the DC is ~18ish, while she's packing maybe a +4 save), leaving her an easy target for a pounce melee kill. And, if I'm reading this right, the roar echoes for [Tarrasque's HD] rounds, so the next round she has to save or be reduced to 10' move, and can't take flight again until the effect dissipates.

        With a +4 fort save, she's up against a DC of 10 + 3 (HD) + 5 (Assume +2 con in initial stats, +3 from stat bonuses over 6 levels) + 1 (Size difference). Only a 25% chance of retaining ~any~ mobility.

        So her only option is luck with a save or lose spell (And Tarrasque has good save progression for the two relevant SoL saves), or having picked a SoL song & getting lucky there. It's basically an "I win" button against any opponent that relies on mobility.
      • And just on similar terms, a Minotaur5/Barbarian1 is almost certainly going to lose against the Tarrasque in matched combat, when up against DR, higher stats, the ability to initiate battles (Roar will cancel out the minotaur's charge, while the Tarrasque has more land speed, Rush and Pounce).
    • 'Destroyer' is unwieldy as abilities go. It adds a lot of annoying little details that bog down combat, as far as totaling up damage from different sources, keeping track of the individual penalties and making constant saves (at least 3 different saves on a full attack routine)
    • And as I read Prevail, I have to stop.


    It's too good. Pit it against any of the melee-ish creatures in this thread, and it's an almost guaranteed win. Pit it against a given level 10 encounter and it's an almost guaranteed win.

    A big part of the issue with the class is that a lot of the intrinsic weaknesses or drawbacks in abilities get patched up. He has frightful presence ('Doom'), but it'll even affect undead, plants or vermin. He can cripple mobility even if the opponent succeeds their save (A Roar + Stomp in the same turn basically forces every enemy to the ground & turns the entire battlefield into difficult terrain) and opponents who fail are reduced to 1/4 movement (movement halved, then 1/2 movement over difficult terrain). When I designed the advanced diseases & poisons, I made it so there were choices involved (you could get stronger poison, or poison that worked against the typically immune). The Tarrasque just works against everything, and is immune to pretty much anything.

    At 11HD, a Tarrasque at low health is looking at having a bare minimum of +10 to saves, +10 on attack rolls, +10 on damage rolls, +10 DR, +10 SR... and the list goes on. That isn't 'on steroids', that makes it nigh godly. And that's without getting into the initial stat boosts and stuff like Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Amulets of Natural Health. With base stats and gear, I could push that to +20 by 11th level.

    To touch on the discussion since you posted the Tarrasque: I think the balance point one should aim for is Tier 2-3 - Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior. This leaves room for an optimized class to become borderline Tier 1. The Tarrasque seems to be aiming for Tier 1 before you get into the optimization game, and I would even argue it would beat Tier 1 classes in an out-and-out duel at pretty much any level. The Tarrasque, to be taken down, mandates a very specific order of action (beat him into unconsciousness, then Limited Wish to finish him off), and gets raw natural ability to make that nigh impossible while simultaneously countering most of your natural defenses, mobility and options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold Bard
    Re Monster of Legend:
    - Wat type is the AC bonus, or is it untyped?
    Natural. Edited in.

    - If none of the Legendary Power Abilities seem appropriate would taking two additional Fabled Power abilities be ok? (I say two since I assume the Legendary ones are supposed to be more powerful, if you think only taking one would be right then fair enough.)
    I'd say no, but a DM could allow such based on his own discretion. My concern is that you're allowing a mess of more passive abilities rather than an active ability with some passive benefits. There's room for abuse, and I'd rather curtail that.

    - Since they become Outsiders, what is their Native Plane?
    All good questions, Kobold-Bard. I specified its the plane they call home, though I may need to reword that.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-16 at 03:50 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #1333
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Devil

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by AustontheGreat1 View Post
    Tsochar(LoM pg. 121)



    CLASS
    Spoiler
    Show

    Hit Die: d4

    TSOCHAR
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Parasitic Body, Alien Mind

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Improved Grab

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Wear Flesh,

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Alien Flesh, Constrict[/table]

    Class Skills: ((6 + Int. Modifier) x 4 at first level) A Tsocharís class skills are Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.

    Class Features
    Proficiencies: Tsochari are proficient only with their own natural weapons.

    Parasitic Body: At first level, a Tsochar loses all racial bonuses, traits, and abilities and gains aberration traits (essentially darkvision 60ft.). Tsochari are small aberrations with the shapechanger subtype. They can slither along the ground at a speed of 20ft. and they have a climb speed equal to their land speed. Having a climb speed mean that a Tsochar receives a +8 racial bonus to all climb checks and always take 10 on climb checks even when rushed or threatened. Additionally, Tsochari may use their dexterity modifiers in place of their strength modifiers when making climb checks. At first level, Tsochari have two natural tentacle attacks that deal 1d4 damage each. A Tsochar gains an additional tentacle attack for every 5 it possesses. These tentacles are equipped with sharp barbs. At 6 HD the Tsochar begins to produce a potent poison and may deliver this poison whenever it deals damage with his constrict attack. This poison deals 1d3 damage as its initial and secondary damage. A successful fortitude save (DC = 10 + Ĺ the Tsocharís HD + the Tsocharís Constitution Modifier) negates the poison. These tentacles do allow the Tsochari to wield weapons and manipulate objects normally. Tsochari speak their own language and common, and may speak an additional language for every point of their intelligence modifier.

    Lastly, a Tsochar receives a bonus to its armor class equal to its constitution score in the form of a natural armor bonus.

    Alien Mind (Ex): A Tsochar can speak telepathically with any creature that has a language within 10ft. The range of this ability increases by an additional 10ft, for every 2 HD the Tsochar gains after the first.

    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Tsochar must hit with two tentacle attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Additionally, Tsochari receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

    Wear Flesh (Ex): A Tsochar can bore its way into a helpless living creatureís body, slipping its ropy tendrils into the spaces between organs and muscles and disappearing into the victim. The victim must be the same size as the Tsochar or larger, and the process requires 1 minute. The Tsochar can choose to replace or inhabit the victim (see below). Incorporeal creatures and constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead are immune to this ability. A Tsochar can abandon a body it has inhabited or replaced with a full-round action that deals 3d6 points of damage to the host. A Tsochar can be forced to abandon the body by a remove disease or dispel evil spell (the caster must succeed on a DC 20 caster level check to expel the monster, which deals damage as described above) or a heal or limited wish spell (which automatically succeeds and causes no damage to the host).

    Inhabit: The Tsochar leaves its victim alive and aware. Any time it cares to, it can inflict indescribable agony on its host as a standard action, dealing up to 1d6 for every 2 HD the Tsochar possesses or as little as 1d6 points of damage and requiring the host to succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or be nauseated by the pain for 2d4 rounds. The Tsochar chooses how much damage it deals with this attack. The Tsochar can take no physical actions while inhabiting a host, but it can use purely mental actions (such as communicating with its host by means of its telepathy power and threatening to injure or kill the host unless the host does as the monster wishes). When the host takes damage (other than damage the Tsochar inflicts on it), the inhabiting Tsochar takes half that damage. For example, if the host takes 28 points of cold damage from a cone of cold spell, the Tsochar takes 14 points of cold damage. A Tsochar inhabiting a humanoidís body feeds on the creatureís blood and tissues, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage per day. A successful DC 15 Fortitude save reduces this damage by half. Over the course of days, frail humanoids carrying Tsochari sicken and die, although Tsochari are clever enough to direct their hosts to acquire curative magic to keep themselves alive indefinitely, if the situation calls for it.

    Replace: The Tsochar bores out the victimís nervous system, killing the victim. It then animates the body, effectively acting as the nervous system of the dead host. The body remains alive, hosting the Tsochar. This functions like a polymorph spell into the victimís exact form, except that the Tsochar can remain in the victimís form for up to a year, and it leaves the victimís corpse behind when it chooses to end the effect. The Tsochar uses the victimís physical ability scores in place of its own, as described by polymorph. The Tsochar can remain in this form indefinitely, but once it abandons the form, it cannot reanimate the body. Tsochari that have replaced a humanoid slowly devour their new shell from the inside out. A replaced body takes 1d4 points of Constitution drain per month, which does not heal naturally and can be restored only by magical means. A successful DC 15 Fortitude save reduces this damage by half. Naturally, Tsochari imposters choose to abandon bodies they have replaced before they become too weak to be serviceable.

    Additionally, A Tsochar that replaces a spellcaster retains any arcane spells prepared by the dead character, and can cast them as if it had prepared the spells itself. The Tsochar must meet the minimum ability score needed to cast the spell based on the type of caster replaced (Intelligence for a wizard, for example), or else the spell is unavailable to it. If the Tsochar replaces a spontaneous caster such as a sorcerer, it retains the available spell slots of the dead spellcaster, and can use any spells the dead host knew. In either case, the Tsochar cannot regain spells or spell slots it expends from the dead characterís spellcasting ability.

    Alien Flesh (Ex): Despite a Tsocharís frail and squishy appearance, their aberrant flesh is actually quite resistant to damage. At 4th level, the Tsochar gains damage reduction equal to Ĺ half its HD. This DR is penetrated by adamantine. The Tsochar also gains spell resistance equal to its HD + 11 and a resistance to cold damage equal to its HD.

    Constrict (Ex): A Tsochar deals 2d4+2 points of damage with a successful grapple check. When a Tsochar deals damage by means of its constrict attack, it injects its victim with poison.


    STUFF
    Spoiler
    Show
    OK, here it is ready for your judgement. I'm going to be honest, I am dead tired and it will probably show in the class. Good Night.
    Shouldn't the hitdie by d8? They're abberations.

    And there are a few other errors like in the number of tentacle attacks, every 5 of what?

  14. - Top - End - #1334
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hyudra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    Shouldn't the hitdie by d8? They're abberations.

    And there are a few other errors like in the number of tentacle attacks, every 5 of what?
    Just saying, but we don't adhere to the HD-by-type outlined in the SRD, nor the skill points. That way lies madness.

    That said, the class is a little (read: extremely) weak at 1st-2nd level, it should scale (The DCs listed are hard DCs, where they should rise as the Tsochar advances), the class details the poison application twice, and the spell slot thing is a little bizarre, and should probably be reworked.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-16 at 02:40 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #1335

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    • The entry is in need of a spellcheck.
    • Really helps to make the entry readable, if you state in the ability descriptions when the abilities become available.
    • That's the final polishing after we get the class working properly.

      Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    • Re: Ability score increase; it helps if you state the totals. (Ie. At 20th level, the Tarrasque has +20 Str and +20 Con
    • Spellcraft seems a bit out of place.
    Minor details but done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  16. "It's unable to do fine manipulation" would read better as "It is incapable of fine manipulation."
  17. "it can talk in a gutural deep primal voice." -> What starting language?
Common +one language per int modifier, the usual.

Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  • "Rush:Once per minute the Tarrasque can quadriplicate his movement for one round as a free action." -> You probably mean quadruple. Unclear how this applies. Does this apply to jumps? If so, how? Does it boost any flight it picks up?
  • It should be to the base speed, will clarify that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  • Stomp is incredibly powerful. Not only is the shockwave unrealistically large for a large creature,
  • Wait, since when are we aiming at realism here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    but prone is a devastating status effect that swings the economy of actions (it takes a crucial action to get up, and doing so opens you up to attack), and the difficult terrain just makes the Tarrasque even more of a battlefield controller (see Primal Roar, below).
    Ok, will change it to an entangle-like effect with shorter range, scaleable size and . Casters get it at level 1. We have other monster classes here that do it at lv1. And the Tarrasque needs some way of slowing down enemies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  • Primal Roar comes across as devastatingly powerful. Especially for a sixth level ability. I get the general intent, but mobility is crucially important. The Tarrasque doesn't even have to give up much to do it, or think about conserving uses for later encounters (By 6th level he'll have +3 con bonus from class-derived ability bonuses, and easily +2 from initial stat distribution, probably +3 or +4).
    • Pit the Tarrasque6 against a Harpy4/Bard2. Spells only have a 50% chance of working, the harpy automatically loses flight, and likely takes damage & falls prone as part of the fall (the DC is ~18ish, while she's packing maybe a +4 save), leaving her an easy target for a pounce melee kill. And, if I'm reading this right, the roar echoes for [Tarrasque's HD] rounds, so the next round she has to save or be reduced to 10' move, and can't take flight again until the effect dissipates.

      With a +4 fort save, she's up against a DC of 10 + 3 (HD) + 5 (Assume +2 con in initial stats, +3 from stat bonuses over 6 levels) + 1 (Size difference). Only a 25% chance of retaining ~any~ mobility.

      So her only option is luck with a save or lose spell (And Tarrasque has good save progression for the two relevant SoL saves), or having picked a SoL song & getting lucky there. It's basically an "I win" button against any opponent that relies on mobility.
  • Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    You gave the minotaur one barb level. It has pounce as well. And can throw stuff at the Tarrasque before they actualy meet since it has actual hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  • 'Destroyer' is unwieldy as abilities go. It adds a lot of annoying little details that bog down combat, as far as totaling up damage from different sources, keeping track of the individual penalties and making constant saves (at least 3 different saves on a full attack routine)
  • Fine another ability back to the idea room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
  • And as I read Prevail, I have to stop.
  • Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post

    It's too good. Pit it against any of the melee-ish creatures in this thread, and it's an almost guaranteed win. Pit it against a given level 10 encounter and it's an almost guaranteed win.

    A big part of the issue with the class is that a lot of the intrinsic weaknesses or drawbacks in abilities get patched up. He has frightful presence ('Doom'), but it'll even affect undead, plants or vermin. He can cripple mobility even if the opponent succeeds their save (A Roar + Stomp in the same turn basically forces every enemy to the ground & turns the entire battlefield into difficult terrain) and opponents who fail are reduced to 1/4 movement (movement halved, then 1/2 movement over difficult terrain). When I designed the advanced diseases & poisons, I made it so there were choices involved (you could get stronger poison, or poison that worked against the typically immune). The Tarrasque just works against everything, and is immune to pretty much anything.

    At 11HD, a Tarrasque at low health is looking at having a bare minimum of +10 to saves, +10 on attack rolls, +10 on damage rolls, +10 DR, +10 SR... and the list goes on. That isn't 'on steroids', that makes it nigh godly. And that's without getting into the initial stat boosts and stuff like Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Amulets of Natural Health. With base stats and gear, I could push that to +20 by 11th level.
    I'll admit it now I made the mistake of giving bonus based on an ability+heavy bonus to the ability itself.

    That's what I get for doing the class little by little I end up losing track of all the sinergies.

    Will replace prevail with a masochism-like ability and destroyer with a sadism-like ability. Both 3rd level spells from BOVD and never heard anyone say they're broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyudra View Post
    To touch on the discussion since you posted the Tarrasque: I think the balance point one should aim for is Tier 2-3 - Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior. The Tarrasque seems to be aiming for Tier 1, and I would even argue it would beat Tier 1 classes in an out-and-out duel at pretty much any level. The Tarrasque, to be taken down, mandates a very specific order of action (beat him into unconsciousness, then Limited Wish to finish him off), and gets raw natural ability to make that nigh impossible while simultaneously countering most of your natural defenses, mobility and options.
    That would be adorable if the tier system actualy worked. But it doesn't. "Tier 2" characters can do that what you described with a little effort. Warmage with rainbow servant can do it easier despite being lower tier last time I watched the list.

    Like pointed out as we reach higher levels the cheese increases more and more untill it can only be countered by cheese. Now I can cut some stuff from the early/mid levels but if the Tarrasque wants to be a melee monster at higher levels it needs some cheese of it's own or any flying oponent with a strong ranged attack can take it down easily.

    I wanted to give it anti-air spines but you yourself said the Tarrasque should force their oponents to close in if they wanted to actualy defeat it.

    Also, Ethergaunt and Solar classes. You never complained about them.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-16 at 04:02 PM.
    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote

  • - Top - End - #1336
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Maybe it's just me, but I don't think countering cheese should be an objective of the classes since, as you yourself say, you have to use cheese to counter cheese. Which makes the monsters much less likely to be accepted in any campaign.

    So, using cheese in something that's specifically supposed to be playable in a normal game seems counter-productive.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-16 at 04:06 PM.
    Avatar by the wonderful BeckyPages. My OC Curtain Call.

    My Twitter account, where I will mainly post images of minis I've painted.

  • - Top - End - #1337
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gorgondantess's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Not in a human colon

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Also, Ethergaunt and Solar classes. You never complained about them.
    ....
    Complain!
    The ethergaunt is pretty much broken, FYI. It takes the most powerful class in the game- the wizard- and makes it more powerful. Sure, it eliminates the possibility of PrCing... but honestly, I'd put it at about the same level as an initiate of the sevenfold veil. Plus 5 levels of archmage. And then 3 of fatespinner. And, really, ethergaunt 5 is essentially strictly more powerful than wizard 5. Don't do optimizing FOR people. I think the rule should be CL= level-1, tops. It allows more flavor abilities without being OP, and actually gives you a reason to take the casting class over that. It's what I did with the marrutact, and it's what I'm doing with the mindflayer and ghaele (Psion and Favored Soul casting equal to CL-1, respectively.)

    Solar's okay, because it is actually a bit of a downgrade over cleric- 1/2 BAB, no turning, and limited domain selection. What it gets by level 5 is roughly equivalent.

    ...I've always felt this, I just never had the chance to really say it.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-16 at 04:38 PM.
    Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer

  • - Top - End - #1338
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    ....
    Complain!
    The ethergaunt is pretty much broken, FYI. It takes the most powerful class in the game- the wizard- and makes it more powerful. Sure, it eliminates the possibility of PrCing... but honestly, I'd put it at about the same level as an initiate of the sevenfold veil. Plus 5 levels of archmage. And then 3 of fatespinner. And, really, ethergaunt 5 is essentially strictly more powerful than wizard 5. Don't do optimizing FOR people. I think the rule should be CL= level-1, tops. It allows more flavor abilities without being OP, and actually gives you a reason to take the casting class over that. It's what I did with the marrutact, and it's what I'm doing with the mindflayer and ghaele (Psion and Favored Soul casting equal to CL-1, respectively.)

    Solar's okay, because it is actually a bit of a downgrade over cleric- 1/2 BAB, no turning, and limited domain selection. What it gets by level 5 is roughly equivalent.

    ...I've always felt this, I just never had the chance to really say it.
    After looking at the class (I never have before) I have to say I agree. ALthough, I'm personally not a fan of giving the Solar polymorph.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-16 at 04:58 PM.
    Avatar by the wonderful BeckyPages. My OC Curtain Call.

    My Twitter account, where I will mainly post images of minis I've painted.

  • - Top - End - #1339
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hyudra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Ok, will change it to an entangle-like effect with shorter range, scaleable size and . Casters get it at level 1. We have other monster classes here that do it at lv1. And the Tarrasque needs some way of slowing down enemies.
    Arguably so. I'm put in mind of the Heavy of Team Fortress 2, though.

    He's a high DPS brute with a lot of health, with the drawback of slow speed. Recently, though, he's become somewhat overpowered because of synergies with one of his weapon options, "Natascha".

    Long story short, the heavy is slow to begin with and while you're shooting with the miniguns "Sasha" and "Natascha", you get slowed down even more. Natascha is different from Sasha in that it does less damage (still more raw damage than any weapon in the game), but slows enemies down while they're taking fire. After recent patches, the heavy moves as fast as a Natascha-slowed opponent... so you wind up with a high damage, high health class with slow speed vs. a moderate-DPS, moderate-to-low health class with slow speed.

    I mean, putting it simply, if the Tarrasque brings the opponent down to his level, where he has everything going for himself, what can the opponent do?

    What if it simply drops flying creatures to a low altitude? Would it be fine them? You were the one that sugested the 4e gravity aura. I tried to spice it up but aparently went too far.
    It's a tricky concept, and one I've tackled at various points with my own creatures. The main thing is to give the other creature room to react and respond. If it's a plain 'no save, always works' ability, then you're venturing into broken territory.

    Some ways to go would be (using one or more of the below):
    • It's gradual, where the enemy loses maneuverability (Say, one step of maneuverability with the first primal roar, and then more potential steps lost over time, with lost saves). A foe could touch ground to get their bearings, at which point the Tarrasque has options.
    • A cloud cover above the Tarrasque that essentially makes it impossible to attack from over a certain height (at which point the Tarrasque has enough reach to hit most enemies).
    • The ability never becomes free or easy to use (ie. requires a move action at the very least for 1-3 rounds of duration), so the Tarrasque needs to complement it with strategy or teamwork.
    • The ability has to be conserved, with fewer uses a day.
    • The enemy can save to avoid losing flight.


    You gave the minotaur one barb level. It has pounce as well. And can throw stuff at the Tarrasque before they actually meet since it has actual hands.
    Pounce is irrelevant, as the Minotaur probably isn't going to get the first attack (short of starting within 60' of the Tarrasque & winning initiative. Tarrasque can open with primal roar, stomp and take a 5' step back, at which point it's pretty unlikely the Minotaur is going to get to charge attack. Or it simply uses Rush to close in.

    And I would argue it's unlikely that the 1-2 rounds of the minotaur throwing stuff is going to outweigh the advantages of:
    • +2 Str and +2 Con more than the Mino
    • Regeneration
    • Resistances
    • Higher natural armor
    • Better saves
    • DR
    • Burrow
    • Ability to knock Minotaur prone via. Stomp.
    • 5 attacks on a full attack.

    They're not comparable.

    That would be adorable if the tier system actualy worked. But it doesn't. "Tier 2" characters can do that what you described with a little effort. Warmage with rainbow servant can do it easier despite being lower tier last time I watched the list.

    Like pointed out as we reach higher levels the cheese increases more and more untill it can only be countered by cheese. Now I can cut some stuff from the early/mid levels but if the Tarrasque wants to be a melee monster at higher levels it needs some cheese of it's own or any flying oponent with a strong ranged attack can take it down easily.
    Remember the Tarrasque has Feats & WBL. It's not perfect, but it lets it shore up a lot of weaknesses.

    As it stands, the Tarrasque gets its weaknesses shored up for free, and Feats/WBL to just give itself big numbers and cover any spots that were missed (short range teleportation to avoid being force caged, ability to detect hidden/invisible foes, etc).

    I wanted to give it anti-air spines but you yourself said the Tarrasque should force their oponents to close in if they wanted to actualy defeat it.
    Yes, but as stated above, we want the flying foes to actually have a chance.

    Also, Ethergaunt and Solar classes. You never complained about them.
    They're broken (and I have complained about Dragons, for the record). I never really gave them a review because they don't interest me as monsters, and I don't bother reviewing stuff that I'm not into.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-16 at 04:59 PM.

  • - Top - End - #1340
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Out of curiosity Hyudra, what do you think would help make dragons more balanced? I know you've said take away the spellcasting but is there anything else? The Spellcasting is a pretty thematic ability.
    Avatar by the wonderful BeckyPages. My OC Curtain Call.

    My Twitter account, where I will mainly post images of minis I've painted.

  • - Top - End - #1341
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    May 2010

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The Spellcasting is rather important for dragons as some dragons have it and some don't, it makes a dividing line between 'true' and Planar.

    We just need to figure out a way to buff planar as they are significantly weaker then True without spellcasting.

  • - Top - End - #1342
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Mystic Muse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by un_known View Post
    The Spellcasting is rather important for dragons as some dragons have it and some don't, it makes a dividing line between 'true' and Planar.

    We just need to figure out a way to buff planar as they are significantly weaker then True without spellcasting.
    Planar dragons get Psionics instead?

    Honestly, it's hard to get something up to the strength/weakness of spellcasting without spellcasting.
    Avatar by the wonderful BeckyPages. My OC Curtain Call.

    My Twitter account, where I will mainly post images of minis I've painted.

  • - Top - End - #1343
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Jack_Simth's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2006

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Wich only casters can do.
    Ah, but See Invisibility and Dispel Magic are utility effects - a Bard or Rogue can UMD them, and the save DC doesn't matter. Only five of the 11 base classes can't readily arrange to handle it in a WBL campaign ... and of those five, the ranks they need are just cross-class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Doesn't work, the creator can decide who gets to enter or not.
    You're thinking Magnificent Mansion (7th), there's a PrC or two for sneaking into those, and unlike Rope Trick, the Mansion does not specify in the spell description what happens when the spell ends... so if you're in there when it gets Dispelled/Disjoined/hit with an AMF, you could potentially arbitrarily die / find yourself on a hostile plane. If the DM thinks you're being a cheesy character, the Mansion isn't a good choice. Rope Trick (2nd) doesn't have the 'no entry' clause. Rope Trick says you can get to it by climbing the rope, and says that you can pull the rope in after you, but doesn't specifically address people flying through the window that's explicitly left on the material plane. You will get DM's that go both ways (some will require the rope, some let people go through the window). If you've got a DM that's after you because you're using cheddar, well, loose specifications let him poke holes in your defenses without much issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well, but aren't you arguing a few lines below that "normal" characters can't afford to buff their skills enough to do such things?
    Ah, I was arguing that you must specialize very, very heavily to beat your version of Mr. T at things that his class addresses... that he only needs to invest lightly in.

    Checking Invisibility, it's a Spot check DC 40 to notice that something invisible is nearby, 60 to pinpoint it. Spot is one of the most useful skills in the game (UMD is up there too, as are Listen, Hide, and Move Silently ... Diplomacy too, depending on interpretation and whether or not the DM permits the Epic skill use). So someone with a +20 modifier (a bit high for 5th level when an Extended Rope Trick becomes a camping spot, granted, but becomes progressively more reasonable as levels march on, and it's a fixed DC) getting confused and looking around carefully (taking 20) where your trail of destruction ends will figure out that something invisible is in the area. Unless you've set up a watch while using your Rope Trick / Magnificent Mansion, the seeker can then start groping around blindly for invisible things. If he's familiar with casters, he'll know to check up high near the ceiling, as well. Rope Trick is not unfindable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Again, only if you're a caster walking around with anti-inv, dispel magic, spot and track (since it's easy to just put the rope trick in some shaddowy corner). Wizards/sorcerors/clerics get neither spot or track, so that leaves druids.
    See Invisibility can be made permanent with a Permanency spell. As can Detect Magic and Arcane Sight (either of which can also find it). Track is a normal feat that anyone can take, as well as a ranger bonus feat. Shadowy corners don't necessarily help, as just about every other critter in D&D gets Darkvision from their type definition (and at higher levels, about ten or twenty percent of the critters get True Seeing, Blindsense, Blindsight, or some other way of defeating invisibility to a degree).

    Now, granted, for single wandering monsters, most of them won't be able to put enough together to make it work... but you really do still need to set a watch when using Rope Trick, because there are many who will be able to do so if the DM actually stops and looks through their abilities. It just cuts down on how often the watch will need to raise the alarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well at the lack of a personal plane a hiding place in the middle of some obscure mansion works too. Big T has no way to find oponents at big range.
    Assimilate can take care of that - there's even a Core item for it. I think it's called a Ball of Scrying? Go a little outside of core and you have the Third Eye Sense (XPH, but also in the Psionic/Items section of the SRD). Boots of Teleportation are also useful for that.

    Besides, Mr. T doesn't necessarily have to hurt you to achieve his goals. If you can't hurt Mr. T when you do encounter him, you can't stop him from gobbling up that city just by running away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Several teleportation spells for that.
    If you do not teleport-block your hidey-hole, then while Mr. T might not be able to locate and destroy your body, other critters will be able to do so. If you do teleport-block your hidey-hole, then you have a limited supply of material components for repeated Astral Projections. Unless you're doing some form of trick to avoid the material components (such as Leadership/Nightmare, or a few PrC's), you're either not carefully protected, or you've got a limited number of bodies to expend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    50 GP at 17th level is less than spare change.
    Ah... it's 1,005 gp for Astral Projection for one person (unless you're pulling some kind of trick to get rid of that - there's a fair number of them published by WotC, although I suspect they didn't intend most of them). Granted, Wealth-by-level at 17th is something like 340,000, but you'll want to spend a big chunk of that on, you know, actual equipment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    At level 5 you can just coup de grace it. At higher levels there's plenty of ways of casters to cranck up their DCs.
    Once you get it down through a rapidly-scaling AC, rapidly-scaling regeneration, and rapidly-scaling HP, yes. At level 5. At higher level
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well yes I've gone overboard and it still needs tweaking but still your sugestions if fully implemented would leave it at a lower power level than now.
    ... a lower power level than something you admit is at too high of a power level (or at least was, as-of the last time I reviewed). And this is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well of course slipping directly under Mr.T's nose has to be hard otherwise he becomes another joke monster that can't find his oponents and they dance around him laughing merrilly. Druid for example can get hide as class skill(with several other goodies) with a single feat, turn into a tiny creature and then stack some cheap buffs like camouphlage (lv1, +10 to hide) on top to get a simply sick bonus to hide.
    Again we get into the 'Mr. T as a monster' and 'Mr. T as a playable class'. If Mr. T is a playable class, there being a few things he can't fight back against effectively isn't really an issue - he's expected to be in a party; it's a good thing if he periodically needs somebody else to pull his fat out of the fryer; as long as he can contribute significantly most of the time, it's fine. If Mr. T is a playable class, if almost nothing is effective against him, there's a problem - he easily dominates the gaming table in most campaigns.

    If Mr. T is a solo monster, there being a few relatively simple builds that make him a patsy is a bad thing ... but only if you've got such a build in the party. If Mr. T is a solo monster, if almost nothing is effective against him, there *might* be a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Or you simply hide behind terrain as not even the best spot in the world can see trough a wall.
    That's what Listen is for. And if you're getting total cover behind terrain, you're going to have some problems doing anything of note to Mr. T.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well you also need to mega-focus in order to beat a wizard using rope trick as you yourself showed. My Mr T is as strong as a wizard then, that's good.
    There's several different, easily-found ways to defeat Rope Trick, and there's a great many critters that can take advantage of them. It's not actually all that hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Immortal vigor may have indeed gotten bit too strong, will work on that.
    Cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Strong point. I'll remove the need of a save to finish it off, but still leave prevail so you need some good damage to take him down.
    OK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Ask all the other people who said they liked my work, they may be able to explain better than me.
    Eh, I haven't reviewed all your work. I suppose if you're putting the original as a player in the same campaign with a Batman Incantatrix, a Planar Shephard abusing the fast-time trait, and a Cheater of Mystria, he's reasonably balanced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    No I'm not going to make an exhaustive statistical study of the hundreds of published monsters out there, specially when I myself almost never use them directly out of the box.
    It doesn't need to be an exhaustive census. A partial survey will do, really. Find five or ten critters of equal CR for each of 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th that have a reasonable chance of beating Mr. T when Mr. T intelligently-spent his WBL, without it being a sure thing for either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Several actualy.
    Probably... but when you tried to name four (one of each at four levels), I pointed out how most of them actually can't with the way you had it listed. Which is a bad thing, fundamentally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    You can get anything trough magic items. Even a commoner becomes a mighty oponent when loaded with equipment.
    Ah, but at the same time, equipment costs, and there's a guideline for how much of said equipment you should have at a given level. A Wand of Alter Self at 8th when his size (Huge) starts preventing him from going most places? Not so much of a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well let's not exagerate so much. The last version of the Tarrasque had just four levels with two complicated abilities at the same time.
    Ah... you incorrectly attributed this portion. It was from Gorgondantess, if you'll look up a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    But anyway replaced Immortal Vigor and Unstopable Force with simply a permanent Death Ward and Freedom of Movement effects.. They're basic caster buffs and togheter with the mindblank effect should make Big T immune to most nasty tricks out there.

    Crush replaced with Trample wich is a "standard" big monster ability. Devouring bite is basically Swallow Whole except it ignores freedom of movement.

    So how does Mr.T looks now?
    Eh, I'm getting fatigued of checking. Have fun, which is always the point of these.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  • - Top - End - #1344
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hyudra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    Out of curiosity Hyudra, what do you think would help make dragons more balanced? I know you've said take away the spellcasting but is there anything else? The Spellcasting is a pretty thematic ability.
    No, no. Spellcasting makes sense for True Dragons. What I said was that I like the notion of removing arcane spellcasting from the planar dragons for flavor reasons. Give them other stuff so they stand out more as exotic dragons.

    The real issue is that they're, sort of like the Tarrasque, a little too good at everything (though not nearly to the extent Mr. T is). High BAB, numerous stat bonuses, good saves, lots of attacks (arguably better than iterative attacks), decent skill points, special abilities and then casting on top of it. Before you even get into optimization, they're just flat out good, with no real weaknesses that you'd need party members to help cover.

    Oslecamo countered my argument by stating that the True Dragons are supposed to be more on par with a Swordsage, which generally means we're aiming at tiers 2-3. Though I didn't 100% agree (The Dragon as detailed in this thread is better than a Bard, which is Tier 3) I conceded out of respect for the fact that it was his thread and his ideas in general are good and have justification.

    In light of the Tarrasque and the discussions that've come out as a result of it, though, I think it's become clear that Oslecamo and I have different perspectives on balance. Don't take that to mean I don't respect him. Just that our approaches to the game are rather different. In terms of my own perspective, I think the base notions at work behind the tier system are sensible (namely, that versatility = very important). It also bears mentioning that I have very little experience with higher level play. I tend towards games that start at levels 3-6, usually ending around 9-10. At most, I'll stop around levels 12-14. My games (games I look for & games I run) shy away from tier 1 classes (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite are generally banned) and encourage players towards similar tiers. (So a group with an unoptimized Sorceress, slightly optimized Crusader, and then a well optimized Rogue and Barbarian would be a pretty good 'tier 2' group.). This is rather different from Oslecamo's own descriptions of DMing a game for an optimized CoDzilla and wizard at higher levels.

    If I were to tackle dragons, I would suggest stuff like...
    • Dragons don't get full BAB, and their stat progression doesn't compensate 100% for this (So they're not on par with your typical melee progression. They get enough natural attacks to compensate for this general drawback, provided they full attack, and they have plenty of options when a full attack isn't possible.
    • Lower skill points, and skills biased towards out-of-combat skills like Knowledge.
    • Minor drawbacks couched in flavor. Probably a list of quirks that a player could draw from that has them do stuff like devote a percentage of their wealth to amassing a hoard, or pushes them towards other dragon-like actions. Extraordinary dragons (such as planar dragons) would get slightly different lists. The aim here wouldn't be to penalize the player, but to promote flavor and change the Dragon's base gameplay while offering bonuses. So you give up some WBL (and consequently, options), but gain a flavorful ability in exchange.

    Nothing major. Yes, just to cut in before the discussion of the lowered BAB - Dragons do have a harder time accumulating enhancement bonuses for their natural weapons (but so do a lot of creatures in this thread). If nothing else, I'd implement the above and give them a feat that makes the enhancement bonuses stick more.

    But generally, I'd model the Dragon as something closer to the bard rather than a melee monster with better-than-bard spellcasting on top of everything.
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-16 at 05:44 PM.

  • - Top - End - #1345

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Half-Golem(prc)



    Spoiler
    Show

    Pre-requisites:
    -Must have at least 10 Con.
    -Must lack a body part to be replaced.
    -Must expend 100 GP for the the first level of this class to pay for the materials needed to build the golem limb, and then must respectively pay 200 GP and 300 GP to pay for taking the other two levels, in order to pay for the improvements.

    HD:d10
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1 | +0| +0|+0 |+0 |The Danger, Prototype body, Construction Material, +1 Str
    2| +1| +0|+0 |+0 | Golem Weapon, Golem Plate +1 Str
    3| +2| +1|+1| +1| Magic Resistance, Improve +1 Str
    [/TABLE]

    Skills: see The Danger

    Proefeciencies: the half golem doesn't gain any new proefeciencies besides any new natural weapons it may acquire with this class.

    Features:

    The Danger:Creating half-golems still isn't an exact magic and carries dangerous risks as the shock of connection between the character and the elemental spirit animating the golem limb can end in disaster. Upon taking the 1st level of this class the character must make a will save DC 15 over a 24 hour ritual to implant the golem limb. Other people can help the operation process by suceeding on a DC 15 heal check (can take 10). Each such check gives a +2 bonus on the will save of the character. People wanting to play safe thus hire experts to assist the ritual.

    Suceeding on this save means the implantation went well and the player gains an extra +1 Con for each level of Half-Golem it has plus the light fortification ability. The player also can choose one of the saves of the Half-Golem class to become good saves and gains 4 skill points+Int per level. The half-golem class skills become Climb, Jump, Listen, Handle animal, Knowledge (any), diplomacy, bluff, hide, move silently, Craft(any), Profession (any), Swim, Use Rope, Spot and Wilderness Checks

    Failing the save means the elemental spirit controling the golem limb tries to take over the patient's body. The player's type changes to construct, gaining all construct traits except the extra HP, as the golem limb expands inside his body producing an horrible internal amalgam of minerals and flesh. The Half-Golem class only receives 2 skill points+Int per level and has no class skills in this case. It also loses 6 charisma as it partially loses it's own identity. If this would reduce the half-golem to 0 charisma it becomes a mindless rampaging construct that attacks everything on it's path untill destroyed.

    Some people actualy consider the second event the true sucess as they believe flesh to be weak and would rather fully embrace the artifical side of the half-golem, so they choose to automatically fail their saves.

    Half-Golem construct traits
    Spoiler
    Show
    A half-golem is immune to mindaffecting
    effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease,
    death effects, necromantic effects, and any effect
    that requires a Fortitude save unless it also works on
    objects. The creature is not subject to critical hits, subdual
    damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain,
    or death from massive damage. It cannot run or heal itself but
    can be healed through repair. It cannot be raised or resurrected.
    A half-golem has darkvision (60-foot range)


    Prototype body:Unlike other monster classes the Half-Golem doesn't lose his racial traits when taking this class. It may gain construct traits if it failed the will save (again except the extra HP). The Half-Golem also gains a +1 Bonus to Nat Armor.

    Certain magical elemental damage heals 1 point of health per 3 damage it would normally do to an half golem depending on it's type. The half-golem is otherwise immune to that specific element.

    Flesh-electrecity
    Clay-Acid
    Stone-Cold
    Iron-Fire
    Glass stained-Sonic
    Brass-Fire
    Dragonflesh-Electrecity

    Construction Material: The half-golem gains diferent bonus based on the material used to build it's limbs:

    Flesh- This material leads to unstability on the patient. If the character takes damage it must make a will save with DC equal to the damage taken or fly into a rage like a barbarian gaining all the benefits and penalties. It can rage 1/day plus an aditional time for every 4 HD it has. Half -Golem levels stack with barbarian levels for determinining Rage bonus.



    Clay- This material gives extra momentum to the patient. After it has enganged at least in one round of combat the half-golem can haste itself as a free action. This ability lasts 1 round per HD and can be used once per day plus an extra use for every 4 HD the half-golem has.

    Stone- This material is specially sturdy. The character's strenght improves by an extra +2 and it's Natural armor by an extra +1.

    Iron- This material is really strong but demands constant maintenance or become an hindrance. The character's strenght improves by an extra +4 and it's Natural armor by an extra +2. However every time the character takes damage it must make a Fort save with DC 10+ damage taken or it takes a -1 penalty to Str. Further damage taken increases this penalty by an extra -1 to Str for every failed save. It takes 1 minute of interrupted work with proper tools (cost 50 GP, not expended by this) and a sucesfull profession check (blacksmith) with DC 15+Half Golem level to remove each point of Str penalty. The character can repair itself but it takes double time. There's no penalty for failed profession checks.

    Stained Glass-This material has impressive self-preservation properties. The character gains fast healing equal to half it's HD.

    Brass- This material greatly improves the olfact of the patient. The character gains the scent ability and gains a bonus on Wilderness Lore checks equal to it's HD.

    Dragonflesh-This material is exceptionally sensible to vibrations. The character gains blindsight with a range of 10 foot plus an extra 10 foot for every 4 HD it has.

    Ability increase: Each level of the half golem class gives a +1 bonus to Str.

    Golem Weapon:the half golem limb is improved to include a powerfull weapon.

    Flesh: Slam attack dealing 2d6 damage for a medium character, adjust acordingly for other sizes.

    Clay: Creatures damaged in melee by the Clay Golem receive a powerfull curse. They can't heal damage by any means untill they either receive a healing check with DC 15+ HD+ Con modifier or receive an healing spell that suceeds on a Caster level check of DC 10+ HD+Con Modifier. Clay golem attacks always bypass regeneration.

    Stone: can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every minute. The effect has a range of 10 feet plus 5 for every 3HD beyond 5 and a duration of half the Half-Golem HD rounds, requiring a DC 10+1/2 HD +Con modifier Will Save to negate.

    Iron: As a free action once every minute during his turn, the half-golem may breath out a cloud of poisonous gas which fills a 10' cone in front of the golem, plus 5' for every 3 HD beyond 5. Any caught in the gas must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Con mod) or take constitution damage equal to 1/2 the golem's HD.

    Stained glass: Claw attack dealing 1d6 damage for a medium character with a threat range of 19-20. It also learns how to quickly change the colors of it's golem limbs granting a bonus on hide checks equal to it's HD.

    Brass: Quarry. As a standard action you can select an oponent whitin 25 foot+5 foot per two HD you see or detected with your scent ability. For a period of 10 minutes you always know the position of that creature no matter how farther away it gets or any obstacles between you. If your oponent, as a fullround action, can suceed on an Int check with DC 20 then the effect automatically ends. This ability can be used 1/day plus an extra time for every 4 HD you have.

    If you have 5 HD or more you gain a +2 Bonus to your AC and saves against creatures other than your target. Your quarry takes a -2 penalty on attacks against creatures other than you. This bonus/penalty automatically ends this bonus if you willingly attack anyone other than your target.

    If you have 10 or more HD then this works as a maze SLA, except that the half golem can freely enter it's own maze to track it's quarry.

    DragonFlesh: Claw attack dealing 1d4 damage for a medium character. When the halfgolem
    attacks with this claw, it inspires terror in all creatures within 30 feet that have fewer Hit Dice than it has. Each potentially affected opponent must succeed at a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha bonus) or the opponent becomes
    shaken for 5d6 rounds. A successful save leaves that opponent immune to that half-golemís frightful presence
    for 24 hours.

    Golem plate:The half-golem gains DR/adamantine equal to Ĺ it's HD. If it's an clay half-golem it gains DR/adamantine and bludgeoding instead.

    Magic Resistance:The half golem gains SR 10+HD+Con modifier. An half-golem can willingly let spells that deal the elemental damage it has an affinity with bypass it's SR.

    Improvement:The golem limb can be further reinforced by spending extra resources. The half-golem can increase his Str score by a further +1 by paying 400GP, then 500 GP for another extra +1, and so on. It takes 1 day of work for every 100 GP cost to improve the limb. Your total extra Str gained this way cannot exceed your non-half golem levels.


    Comments:
    Spoiler
    Show

    The half-golem will suck some of your WBL but in return you get several powerfull bonus. All levels increase your Str and Con.

    First level gets you a passive ability, second level the golem special weapon and DR, and the third level gives Magic resistance (magic immunity would be kinda too much for three levels) and the ability to keep buffing your str for a relatively cheap price.

    The Half Golem can give you quick construct traits if you fail the save but then you lose Con, wich is important for several of the Half-Golem abilities. And also a penalty to charisma on top.


    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-16 at 06:48 PM.

  • - Top - End - #1346

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Have fun, which is always the point of these.
    I must greatly thank you for remembering me of this point. Wich is why I kinda left the roleplaying section and it's endless balance arguments and came to the homebrew section do stuff I would want to use and I believed other people would want to (and the numerous reviews proved me right).

    Too much worry about balance is indeed bad for your health/fun like Saph once wisely taught me. That's why you have rule 0 and homebrew to adapt stuff to your particular play style. If somebody likes the concept of my monster classes but doesn't like point X or Y for being over/under powered they can change them by themselves.

    The true dragons done so far will NOT be changed. They were the basis of this project. They still are.

    The Tarrasque probably can still be tweaked but only on the sense to prevent it from being an auto-win monster (if it is at all right now).

    Now to the more important stuff.

    The Half-Golems above were comissioned by a person that I kinda owe a favor. So I would greatly apreciate if you could drop the balance discussion for a moment and give your opinion about them, if they look like they would look fun to play or not.

  • - Top - End - #1347
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Serpent's Throne
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Guys, I just got an idea! An idea so stupid that if I had even the slightest inkling of knowing what I was talking about, my head would explode.

    What about classes for Aspects? Y'know, like the Aspects of Graz'zt, Tiamat, Orcus, Mephistopheles, Lolth, Kord, Pelor, etc.? Think about it; it would be like playing one of D&D true iconic characters, but in the end you can still deviate enough to become something completely different, or even better than the original.
    Spoiler
    Show
    My Characters
    According to this test, I am a LN Half-Orc Cleric, Lvl.2.
    "And in the layer of the Deep Ones, we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever." - H.P. Lovecraft

  • - Top - End - #1348
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Crafty Cultist's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    In the shadows Waiting...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    The aspects had quite a narrow focus, so they would have to be expanded considerably to be viable. Playing as a weaker version of a demon lord would be interesting though
    Avatar By Elagune

    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

  • - Top - End - #1349
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Hyudra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    The Half-Golems above were comissioned by a person that I kinda owe a favor. So I would greatly apreciate if you could give your opinion about them, if they look like they would look fun to play or not.
    Glancing through it, it feels like the Stained Glass golem does the opposite of what one would expect. It repairs quickly, rather than be fragile, and is healed by sonic (where sounds of certain pitch tend to shatter glass). It stands out. The hiding bonus fits nicely, though. Perhaps some of the same bonuses could be retained by an alchemical silver (mercury?) golem? Fast healing & sound would work somewhat better with mercury.

    I wouldn't play the Half-Golem, and I don't think I'd be alone there. Why? Primarily because of the possibility that one bad roll can mess up the character. By this, I refer to "The Danger". I think players would be scared off the class for much the same reason that people prefer stuff like point buy over rolled stats, and averaged HP rolls over rolling for hitpoints.

    To remedy this, I would recommend giving the player some more control over which way the result goes, rather than just waiting to take the class (and letting their will save rise). Players can already choose to fail the roll, which is great. For the other side of things, in keeping with the theme, perhaps an expensive material component to stabilize the transformation, a heal check to stop the transformation so it can be attempted again another day, or an option of just gritting one's teeth through the process at the risk of ability drain?

    The latter option would give the player more choice over how the character develops, while retaining the tension of the transformation (nobody wants ability drain).
    Last edited by Hyudra; 2010-08-16 at 06:29 PM.

  • - Top - End - #1350

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Added the option of having other people help you on the will save by suceeding on heal checks.

  • Page 45 of 50 FirstFirst ... 2035363738394041424344454647484950 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •