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  1. - Top - End - #1411

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    I'd like to request the anthropomorphic template from savage species.
    Making a class for each specific template would be too much work, but we could expand the plane touched's idea to incorporate all antromorphic animals into a single 4-6 levels class, in a "create your own monstruosity!" style.

  2. - Top - End - #1412
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Making a class for each specific template would be too much work, but we could expand the plane touched's idea to incorporate all antromorphic animals into a single 4-6 levels class, in a "create your own monstruosity!" style.
    That's what I was thinking.
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  3. - Top - End - #1413

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Antropormhopic animal



    Spoiler
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    HD: d8
    {table=head]
    Level
    |
    BAB
    |
    Fort
    |
    Ref
    |
    Will
    |Features
    1|+1|+0|+0|+0|Hybrid body, What has magic done?, Animal prowess
    2|+2|+0|+0|+0|What has magic done? Animal Skill
    3|+3|+1| +1| +1|Animal power
    4|+4|+1| +1| +1|Animal power
    5|+5|+1| +1| +1|Animal apotheosis
    6|+6|+2| +2| +2|Animal apotheosis
    [/table]
    Class Skills (4+ Int Modifier,quadruple at 1st level):Balance, Climb, jump, Hide, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Wilderness Lore and Swim

    Proficiencies: The antropormhopic animal is proefecient with whatever natural weapons it acquires from this class only.

    Features:


    Hybrid body:
    At 1st level an antropormhopic animal loses all racial bonuses it had and gains monstruous humanoid traits(basically darvision 60 foot) and has a base speed 30 ft. An antropormhopic animal is a medium or small(player's choice) bipedal creature and has two arms capable of fine manipulation. Also choose one of the class's saves. That save becomes of good progression.

    Aspect-wise it resembles a crossover between an human and one or more animal, the details of wich are left to the player to specify depending on the choices it takes from now on.

    Regardless, an antropormhopic animal has a natural armor bonus equal to it's Con bonus.


    What has magic done?:
    At 1st and 2nd level the antropormhopic animal may select two of the following bonus. Unless otherwise noticed no ability from this list may be picked more than once.

    Spoiler
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    Bite/gore:
    the AA gains a natural bite/gore attack dealing 1d6+1,5 str mod damage, for a medium character, adjust acordingly for AAs of diferent sizes.

    Claws/talons:
    the AA gains two natural claw/talon attacks dealing 1d4+Str mod damage, adjust acordingly for AAs of diferent sizes. Those claws/talons are also the AA's hands so they can't be used if she has them busy with something else.

    Hoof/stamp:
    the AA gains two natural hoof/stamp attacks dealing 1d4+1/2 Str mod damage, adjust acordingly for AAs of diferent sizes. Hoof/stamp attacks are on the AA's legs so they can be used even if the AA's hands are busy with something else.

    Tail:
    the AA has a tail wich can be used to deliver a tail slap attack dealing 1d6+1,5 str mod damage for a medium character, adjust acordingly for AAs of diferent sizes.

    Scent:
    as the srd ability.

    Swim:
    the AA can swim at it's base speed. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. The AA can also now hold his breath 8 times longer than normal.


    Cute:
    the AA is incredibly cute. It adds diplomacy and bluff to it's class skills and adds her Con bonus to those checks.

    Fearsome:
    The AA looks quite scary. It adds intimidate and handle animal to it's class skills and adds her Con bonus to those checks.

    Fast:
    the AA gains +10 speed to all it's move speeds.

    Improved Grab:
    Choose one of the AA's natural weapons. To use this ability, the AA must hit with that attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

    Improved trip:Choose one of the AA's natural weapons. To use this ability, the AA must hit with that attack. It can then attempt to start a trip as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the trip fails the oponent can't react.

    Snake tail: instead of legs the AA possesses a snake tail, wich reduces it's speed by 10 foot. In return it gains the Improved grab ability above, applied to her tail, and whenever it wins a grapple check against a creature it can constrict for 1d3+1,5 str modifier for a medium AA, adjust acordinly for AAs of other sizes.

    Attach(must have bite or tail attack):
    If an AA hits with a bite or tail attack, it uses its powerful jaws/tail to latch onto the opponentís body and automatically deals bite/tail slap damage each round it remains attached. An attached AA loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. An attached AA can be struck with a weapon or grappled itself. To remove an attached AA through grappling, the opponent must achieve a pin against the creature

    Pounce:
    When an AA charges it may perform a full attack.

    Ink Cloud:
    the AA can emit a cloud of jet-black ink 5 feet high by 5 feet wide by 5 feet long per HD once per minute as a free action. The cloud provides total concealment. All vision within the cloud is obscured.

    Poison (must have bite attack):
    The AA's bite delivers poison with a fort save of 10+1/2 HD+Con modifier. It's initial and secondary damage are 1d2 of one physical ability score, chosen when this ability is taken. Once done this choice cannot be changed. If it's Con then reduce the poison damage by half, rounded down. For every two HD beyond 1st, both poison damage die increase one step category.

    Enduring:
    choose one of the AA's base saves. That save gains good progression.

    Blood Squirt:
    The AA can spray forth a small
    quantity of blood from its eyes as a standard action. The blood loss causes no harm to the AA, but it is disconcerting to those who view this ability. Oponents who see this ability must make a DC 10+1/2HD+Con modifier Will save or be shaken for 1 round per HD of the AA.

    Spines:
    The AA is covered with sharp spines. An opponent that hits it with a natural weapon, noreach melee weapon or an unarmed attack automatically takes 1d2 points of piercing damage. This damage increases one step category for every 2 extra HD of the AA beyond first. Grappled oponents automatically take spine damage every time a grapple check is made.

    Versatile feet:
    The AA ignores dificult terrain.

    Ferocity:
    the AA can keep fighting while disabled or dying whitout penalty.


    Animal Prowess: At 1st level the AA gains +1 to two physical ability scores of it's choice. For every other level on this class it gains an extra +1 to the chosen scores, for a total bonus of +6 at 6th level.

    Animal skill:
    Choose one physical skill. The AA gains a bonus on that skill equal to it's HD. Alternatively, choose two physical skills, and the AA gains a bonus on those skills equal to 1/2 it's HD.

    Animal power: At 3rd and 4th level select one of the following options. Alternatively select three more from the "What has Magic done?" option.

    Spoiler
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    Sprint:Once per hour per 2 HD the AA can multiply it's land speed by ten for one round as a free action. This doesn't affect the other AA's movement speeds.

    Burrow: the AA gains a burrow speed equal to half it's land speed

    Climb: the AA can now climb at it's base speed. It can always take 10 on climb checks and gains an +8 bonus on such checks, not taking penalties to fight while climbing.

    Fly (demands 4HD): the AA can now fly with average maneuverability at it's base speed.

    Size change:if the AA was medium it now becomes large. If it was small it becomes tiny.

    Faster: the AA gains an extra +20 foot to all it's speeds.

    Superior:
    The AA gains an extra +2 to one of it's physical scores.

    Blindsense:
    the AA gains blindsense with a range of 10 foot per HD.

    Blindsight (demands blindsense):
    the AA gains blindsight with a range of 5 foot per HD.

    Powerfull charge (demands gore attack):
    the AA deals double damage with it's gore attack on a charge.

    Animal rage: if the AA that takes damage in combat she must make a will save with DC equal to the damage taken or fly into a berserk rage on her next turn (can choose to fail this save). She gains +4 to Strength, +4 to Constitution, and -2 to Armor Class for a number of rounds equal to 3+it's improved Con mod, after wich she's fatigued. While on this rage she can only move and/or attack with her natural weapons. The AA cannot end its rage voluntarily. An AA can rage once per hour for every 4 HD it has. Animal rage stacks with rage from other classes.



    Animal apotheosis:
    At 5th and 6th level select one of the following bonus. Alternatively pick two from Animal power or five more from "What has magic done?"

    Spoiler
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    Air superiority (demands fly speed):
    the AA's maneuverability increases by two steps.

    Examplar specimen(demands superior):
    the AA gains an extra +2 bonus to his superior physical score and +2 to another physical score.

    Size change(demands large or tiny size):
    if the AA was large it now becomes huge and gains the trample ability as per the SRD. If it was tiny it now becomes diminutive but gains a 5 foot reach with all it's natural weapons.

    Fastest:
    the AA gains an extra +30 to all it's speeds.

    Nature linked:
    An AA who multiclasses into a divine caster class can count his AA levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells/powers and getting new spell slots/power points. However, she does not retroactively gain spell slots or new spells for caster levels she did not take, nor does she add her AA level to her character level for the purpose of other class features, such as turn undead.

    In adition, the AA gains a +4 bonus to Wis.




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    Requested by Kyuubi, an interesting project and he/she deserves it for having helped this thread a lot.

    The AA is a result of bored wizards trying to play god and thus can go a lot of ways. The player can pick from several natural weapons weapons, size changes and animal abilities to create his own monstruosity/catgirl. The player can also get up to +13 to a single physical ability score over 7 levels.

    If anyone has a better picture let me know, the Savage Species one doesn't seem to be freely available and everything else that shows up on google seems to be furry.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-27 at 12:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #1414
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Thanks!

    Working on the mist dragon.

    Edit: Image deleted because I was not sure if it broke copyright rules and decided I'd rather be safe than sorry.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-21 at 10:39 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #1415
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    For "What has Magic Done":
    Is that 2 at 1st and 2 at 2nd, for a total of 4, or is it 1 at 1st, and 1 at 2nd, for a total of 2?

    If the latter, to fix, try:
    "At 1st level, and again at second, the AA may select 1 of the following bonusses, for a total of 2 at second level."
    If the former, just switch out the numbers.

    Edit: Nvr mind. painfully obvious after reading the follow-up abilities.
    Last edited by flabort; 2010-08-20 at 08:30 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #1416
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    As much as I love Pearls Before Swine (which is dearly), one of these might work a tad better:
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    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2010-08-20 at 08:29 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1417
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    As much as I love Pearls Before Swine (which is dearly), this might work a tad better:
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    Well, I was trying to avoid finding furries and searching for that was the one way I thought I'd be able to do so.
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  8. - Top - End - #1418
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    So that's 4 WHMD?s, 2 APs, and 2 AAs that You can pick from. not counting using an AP or AA to get extra WHMD?s or AAs to get APs...
    Confusing sentence!!

    Lets see... WHMD?s: <free (claws?)+Swim+Fast+<Free (Pounce?)>, APs: Burrow+Climb+Fly+Faster, AA: Fastest+exchanged for 2 APs.
    Base speed=30+10+20+30=90
    Swim speed=30+10+20+30=90
    Burrow speed=(40/2=20)+20+30=70
    Climb speed=40+20+30=90
    Fly speed=40+20+30=90
    90+90+90+90+70= 430 speed! (assuming all speeds are available)

    not very optimized, though. Just really, really, fast.
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  9. - Top - End - #1419
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Can anybody think of any good thinking based abilities in 3.5? Thinking a lot seems to be the Mist Dragon's Schick but I can't think of anything to give them based off of thinking. Yes, the amount of times it says "think" is intentional.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-20 at 08:53 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #1420
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I don't know if there are rules about linking to deviantart pictures or something but I quite liked the Gladiator Rooster:
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    or if you want something more traditional then maybe the TMNT:
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Psionic focus?
    Psionics?
    Prepared spellcasting?
    Concentration Skill?
    Knowledge Skills?
    Archivist Dark Knowledge?
    Diamond Mind Maneuvers?
    Bardic Knowledge?
    The "Riddled" dragon template from an obscure dragon magazine?

    That's all I can think of...

    EDIT: Hey! I can make a Roc Ness out of the Anthropomorphic Animal class...
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-08-21 at 03:38 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hot wolf girl stays, but that's just me.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    @Antropormhopic animal:
    JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST. This thing is way, way too powerful. Stone giant? HAHAHAH, hah, I'm an anthropomorphic animal, bitch, I can knock you down and kill you in one round. Why?
    I have, by 6th level:
    *+13 str, +7 con. You just have +6 str, +6 con. Suck on my +11 strength modifier.
    *I have enough natural attacks to choke a horse. Oh, you have a slam attack? I've got a bite, a weapon (or 2 if I have 2 weapon fighting), 2 stamps, and a tail. And then I can full attack pretty much every round with pounce! All at 2nd level!
    *Yeah, you have some skill bonuses, but I get to choose mine. It all balances out.
    *At 6th level, you're lucky to have your large size. I'm huge. Literally! Those natural attacks I just talked about are going to be doing massive dice, not to mention my ridiculous strength modifier.
    And what do you have to offer in return? Some silly SLAs, and the ability to move over rough terrain. Oh, and you can toss rocks around. Sure, that's nice and all, but nothing compares with my sheer numbers. And I can always just give up +2 to my strength (so only +10 strength modifier, boohoo) to fly.

    Seriously, Os, this thing is too big. Tone down the ability scores, at the least, and then give only 1 ability from "what has magic done?"
    I'd say +1 to two ability scores at 1st level, then +1 to either one of them at each level thereafter, not to exceed a +4 bonus in either by 6th level. Also, you might want to let it just be "any ability score but intelligence". I'd imagine many would give a bonus to wisdom, and a few might give a bonus to charisma, depending on who you ask. >.>
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-21 at 02:23 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #1424

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    @Antropormhopic animal:
    JESUS TAPDANCING CHRIST. This thing is way, way too powerful. Stone giant? HAHAHAH, hah, I'm an anthropomorphic animal, bitch, I can knock you down and kill you in one round. Why?
    I have, by 6th level:
    *+13 str, +7 con. You just have +6 str, +6 con. Suck on my +11 strength modifier.
    +11? Assuming a starting 18 str that results in 31 str, a +10 modifier. You get an ability increase but the stone giant can also get that, resulting in 25, a +7 modifier. At 8th level the stone giant balances out geting 26 str

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *I have enough natural attacks to choke a horse. Oh, you have a slam attack? I've got a bite, a weapon (or 2 if I have 2 weapon fighting), 2 stamps, and a tail. And then I can full attack pretty much every round with pounce! All at 2nd level!
    You won't be hiting much tough. You're not proefecient with manufactured weapons, you burned your feat, so you're taking a -5 penalty on your attacks except one of them.

    The stone giant is wielding one single weapon yes, but it has powerfull build so it's a damn big weapon. Heck, powerfull build actualy means that, at 2nd level, he can grapple the AA to death or lock trip her with a spiked chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *Yeah, you have some skill bonuses, but I get to choose mine. It all balances out.
    Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    *At 6th level, you're lucky to have your large size. I'm huge. Literally! Those natural attacks I just talked about are going to be doing massive dice, not to mention my ridiculous strength modifier.
    You have nothing else on the other hand. You're easy picking for flying oponents (wich you can't pick because you burned all your AA abilities already).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And what do you have to offer in return? Some silly SLAs, and the ability to move over rough terrain. Oh, and you can toss rocks around.
    At 900 range. That's simply massive. Assuming it's running the AA needs seven turns to close in. If the Stone giant moves back his own speed each turn that increases to 10 turns.

    Assuming it's a diffilcult terrain field then the stone giant can literally kite the AA to death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Sure, that's nice and all, but nothing compares with my sheer numbers. And I can always just give up +2 to my strength (so only +10 strength modifier, boohoo) to fly.
    Great, you cannot run while flying, so the stone giant gets at least 20 free shots!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Seriously, Os, this thing is too big. Tone down the ability scores, at the least, and then give only 1 ability from "what has magic done?"
    I'd say +1 to two ability scores at 1st level, then +1 to either one of them at each level thereafter, not to exceed a +4 bonus in either by 6th level.
    If anything only the ability scores need a little toning down, and perhaps preventing of stacking all the stat enancnhers to one side.

    You however seem to be missing that the AA gets nothing besides movement and raw melee damage. The AA has no weapon/armor proefeciencies and no fancy abilities.

    "Oh, that's resolved after 6th level with a quick dip" you may say. Ok, at best you pick barbarian or something from ToB, wee some 3rd level maneuvers!

    The Stone giant picks cleric/wizard and goes straight to 4th level spells. Divine power b***! Or improved invisibility, or something else, 4th level is when the real gold of spellcasting starts to appear. Oh, and I get to keep increasing size untill I'm eventually gargantuan! The stone giant has much better multiclassing prospects than the AA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also, you might want to let it just be "any ability score but intelligence". I'd imagine many would give a bonus to wisdom, and a few might give a bonus to charisma, depending on who you ask. >.>
    It's suposed to be an half-animal. Animals at best have slightly better wis. Int is 2 and cha is always lower. There's no real reason the antromorphic animal should have better mental stats than others.

    Anyway, main point is, the antromorphic animal is suposed to be raw strenght. It doesn't have proefeciencies or fancy abilities like DR or fast healing or SLAs or pseudo-spellcaster or regeneration. It only gets to hit stuff hard (or sneak well if you go the other way). Let it be the best at that at least. Sure you'll have trouble defeating an AA in a direct match of strenght, but you're not suposed to take down a bear by charging at him with your naked hands either. You get a spear for reach, you shoot it arrows from afar, ect, ect

    If a naked mindless stone giant could pummel the AA into submission, then things would be indeed wrong.

    Anyway, will just reduce AA's ability increase at 1st level for now, waiting for your answers.

    EDIT: Also nerfed exemplar specimen so you can't stack everything on the same stat and it needs superior to take.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-21 at 03:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I agree with toning down the ability score bonuses, other than that it looks alright

    But you take a run action while flying
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    +11? Assuming a starting 18 str that results in 31 str, a +10 modifier. You get an ability increase but the stone giant can also get that, resulting in 25, a +7 modifier. At 8th level the stone giant balances out geting 26 str
    32 str vs. 26 strength. That's a pretty significant difference.


    You won't be hiting much tough. You're not proefecient with manufactured weapons, you burned your feat, so you're taking a -5 penalty on your attacks except one of them.
    How did I already burn my feat? Just grab multiattack. And with that huge strength, you will indeed be hitting quite a bit.

    The stone giant is wielding one single weapon yes, but it has powerfull build so it's a damn big weapon. Heck, powerfull build actualy means that, at 2nd level, he can grapple the AA to death or lock trip her with a spiked chain.
    ...And then at 3rd level the AA gets large size.



    At 900 range. That's simply massive. Assuming it's running the AA needs seven turns to close in. If the Stone giant moves back his own speed each turn that increases to 10 turns.
    Oh, come on. You know as well as I that never happens. At best, you'll be encountering them at 100 feet.

    Assuming it's a diffilcult terrain field then the stone giant can literally kite the AA to death.
    If it's difficult terrain, there's also stuff to get in the way that the AA should be able to get total cover.

    If anything only the ability scores need a little toning down, and perhaps preventing of stacking all the stat enancnhers to one side.
    Mainly ability scores. They are simply too large.

    You however seem to be missing that the AA gets nothing besides movement and raw melee damage. The AA has no weapon/armor proefeciencies and no fancy abilities.
    This is not a good thing. And, actually, it does, with burrow and poison and stuff... but it sucks when you just stack on massive ability scores.


    It's suposed to be an half-animal. Animals at best have slightly better wis. Int is 2 and cha is always lower. There's no real reason the antromorphic animal should have better mental stats than others.
    Just trying to add an element of choice. Also, many animals have 14 or even 16 wisdom.

    Anyway, main point is, the antromorphic animal is suposed to be raw strenght. It doesn't have proefeciencies or fancy abilities like DR or fast healing or SLAs or pseudo-spellcaster or regeneration. It only gets to hit stuff hard (or sneak well if you go the other way). Let it be the best at that at least. Sure you'll have trouble defeating an AA in a direct match of strenght, but you're not suposed to take down a bear by charging at him with your naked hands either. You get a spear for reach, you shoot it arrows from afar, ect, ect
    Once again, is this a good thing?

    If a naked mindless stone giant could pummel the AA into submission, then things would be indeed wrong.
    I see things the opposite way: An anthropomorphic animal should be less blunt, and more quick & cunning. Once again, it's your paradigm, though.

    EDIT: Also nerfed exemplar specimen so you can't stack everything on the same stat and it needs superior to take.
    Much better. However, you might want to tag onto animal apotheosis something like +2 (or even +4) wisdom and allowing the multiclassing schtick into divine spellcasters. Whatever happened to my anthropomorphic bat druid?
    Also, it might just be best to get rid of the ability score modifier choices altogether. It already gets plenty of bonuses to ability scores, and in general, choosing stuff like superior & exemplar is a more mechanically sound choice, but it makes the class less interesting to play. +2 to ability scores every single level is plenty, and there are some other cool, fun abilities to choose.
    What might be a good choice is making both of those only effect the physical ability score you did not choose, so you could get a round +6 to all 3 physical ability scores.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Well, to be fair, Elephants have higher Strength and Constitution than Stone Giants.

  18. - Top - End - #1428

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    32 str vs. 26 strength. That's a pretty significant difference.
    Now it's just 30 vs 26, the diference between having rage and not having it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    How did I already burn my feat? Just grab multiattack. And with that huge strength, you will indeed be hitting quite a bit.
    You picked two weapon fighting remember? Multiattack on the other hand doesn't apply to manufactured weapons, so your to hit bonus is still viable with three of your attacks. Kobolds get three natural weapons for LA 0 for Krom's sake! with their update from races of the dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Oh, come on. You know as well as I that never happens. At best, you'll be encountering them at 100 feet.
    Speak for yourself. An huge AA has no viable tactic to hide. You can always see it coming. Altough I'll admit I once had a DM go nuts over we sniping his colossal vermins from afar before they got to touch us and made them able to instantly blink over us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    If it's difficult terrain, there's also stuff to get in the way that the AA should be able to get total cover.
    Wich will slow him down even more as he now can't even move in a straight line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Mainly ability scores. They are simply too large.
    It's +4 to a single score that broken when you don't get SLAs or other nifty abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    This is not a good thing. And, actually, it does, with burrow and poison and stuff... but it sucks when you just stack on massive ability scores.
    But you can't get it all! If you pick burrow or poison or whatever then you can't pick massive ability scores or large size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Just trying to add an element of choice. Also, many animals have 14 or even 16 wisdom.
    And what will they do with it? How many animals have wis-based abilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Once again, is this a good thing?
    It's the antromorphic animal, not the mad arcane experiment that breathes fire and poops rainbows. All it's abilities are based on simple stuff normal animals get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I see things the opposite way: An anthropomorphic animal should be less blunt, and more quick & cunning. Once again, it's your paradigm, though.
    If you want quick and cunning pick class levels after the first AA level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Much better. However, you might want to tag onto animal apotheosis something like +2 (or even +4) wisdom and allowing the multiclassing schtick into divine spellcasters. Whatever happened to my anthropomorphic bat druid?
    Even tome players consider that cheesy. That's saying quite a lot. But at 5th level it wouldn't be that bad I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also, it might just be best to get rid of the ability score modifier choices altogether. It already gets plenty of bonuses to ability scores, and in general, choosing stuff like superior & exemplar is a more mechanically sound choice, but it makes the class less interesting to play. +2 to ability scores every single level is plenty, and there are some other cool, fun abilities to choose.
    Some people just like to hit stuff. That's for what the ability score options are there, trading some versatility for some extra raw power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    What might be a good choice is making both of those only effect the physical ability score you did not choose, so you could get a round +6 to all 3 physical ability scores.
    I tought of that, but I purposedly want the AA to be able to have one of his physical scores higher than the other monster classes since, again, she doesn't get nifty abilities, as they don't make sense for an half-animal, wich are suposed to be the simplest monsters of all.

  19. - Top - End - #1429
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I tought of that, but I purposedly want the AA to be able to have one of his physical scores higher than the other monster classes since, again, she doesn't get nifty abilities, as they don't make sense for an half-animal, wich are suposed to be the simplest monsters of all.
    Yes it can have nifty abilities. Is blindsense not a nifty ability? Is burrow not a nifty ability?
    Nevertheless... I suppose it works.

    In other news, I'm currently working on the Ghaele, Cornugon, and Marraenoloth. They'll all take a while, as I've lost what I wrote the stuff for the ghaele down on, I need to find my monstrous compendium to do the Marraenoloth (because, let's face it, the stuff it has in the MM II is just silly. At least the monstrous compendium always has good flavor to draw from), and the cornugon is a 16 level class.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-21 at 05:45 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Psionic focus?
    Psionics?
    Prepared spellcasting?
    Concentration Skill?
    Knowledge Skills?
    Archivist Dark Knowledge?
    Diamond Mind Maneuvers?
    Bardic Knowledge?
    The "Riddled" dragon template from an obscure dragon magazine?

    That's all I can think of...

    EDIT: Hey! I can make a Roc Ness out of the Anthropomorphic Animal class...
    I'll think about these.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Yes it can have nifty abilities. Is blindsense not a nifty ability? Is burrow not a nifty ability?
    Nevertheless... I suppose it works.
    There are burrowing animals. There are blindsense animals. By any means, if you find D&D animals with other special abilities I don't have there I'll be happy to add them. Well I guess I could add a badger's rage but that would mean even more score increase.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    There are burrowing animals. There are blindsense animals. By any means, if you find D&D animals with other special abilities I don't have there I'll be happy to add them. Well I guess I could add a badger's rage but that would mean even more score increase.
    I was saying they were nifty abilities, so you don't need massive ability scores to compensate.
    Nevertheless, it works.

    Oh, and some other abilities:
    A wolf's trip.
    A boar's ferocity.
    A cheetah's sprint.
    Rake/rend attacks.
    Rhino's powerful charge.
    Rage really would be fine: it's not a flat ability score increase.
    Dire rat disease (as an alternative to poison)
    Maybe a dire shark's swallow whole.
    Changing the poison damage to another ability score.

    And that's only core. From sandstorm:
    Adapting two-humped camel's sure feet to any terrain.
    Horned lizard's spines, and maybe blood squirt.
    Maybe dire tortoise's lightning strike.
    Dire vulture's stench (though perhaps fluff it like a troglodyte's.)

    From frostburn:
    augmented critical & stunning strike (in the dire animals category).

    And I'm too lazy to continue looking for this stuff: it's your class, mate.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    See, around half of those presented by you are from dire animals, wich are unsuitable for this class, just like I'm not picking abilities from magical beasts or outsiders.

    Rake is automatically out because like explained in the original class it just doesn't work with humanoid bodies.

    But thanks for the others anyway, I'll see what I can do with them.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-21 at 06:57 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #1434

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Tengu



    Spoiler
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    HD: d8
    {table=head]
    Level
    |
    BAB
    |
    Fort
    |
    Ref
    |
    Will
    |Features
    1|+0|+0|+0|+2|Ancestral body, Wing Baffle, Crow Trickery, Grace over strenght, Sound Imitation, +1 Dex
    2|+1|+0|+0|+3|Scholar Body, Sky soul, +1 Cha
    3|+1|+1| +1| +3|Crow Magic, +1 Dex
    4|+2|+1| +1| +4|Crow Magic, Wind Feathers
    5|+2|+1| +1| +4| Crow Magic, +1 Cha, +1 Dex
    6|+3|+2| +1| +5|Crow Magic, Crow Feat, +1 Cha, +1 Dex
    [/table]
    Class Skills (6+ Int Modifier,quadruple at 1st level): Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Perform(any), Profession(any), Knowledge(any), Iajutsu Focus, Spellcraft, Wilderness Lore

    Proficiencies: The tengu is proefecient with it's own natural weapons, simple weapons and the Katana (bastard sword)


    Features:

    Ancestral Body:
    At 1st level the Tengu loses any other racial bonus and gains monstruous humanoid traits (basically darkvision 60 foot). The Tengu is a medium sized monstruous humanoid with base speed 30 foot and with a crow head wich provides a beak natural weapon that deals 1d4+Str modifier damage.

    The Tengu also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to his Con modifier.

    Wing Baffle:
    The Tengu has wings but they're too weak to lift him for now. Instead, young Tengus learn how to use their wings to distract their oponents during battle. The first time each round a Tengu attacks in melee it may do a bluff check oposed by the oponent's sense motive check. If he suceeds then the Tengu gains a circumstance bonus on attacks against that oponent equal to his HD.

    At 4 HD the Tengu can fly at double his base speed with average maneuverability, but cannot use Wing Baffle while flying with his own wings.

    Crow trickery:
    The Tengu can use disguise self, minor image and ghost sound as SLAs 1/day for each HD it has.

    At 8 HD the Tengu can use Shout as a SLA for each 4 HD it has.

    Save DCs 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.


    Grace over Strenght:
    The Tengu gains the weapon finesse feat even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites. In adition he can apply this feat to the Katana (bastard sword).

    At 6HD, the Tengu can use his Dex modifier instead of his Str modifier for damage rolls on melee finesseable weapons and the katana (bastard sword).

    Sound Imitation: The Tengu can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod) to detect the ruse.

    Ability Increase:
    The Tengu gains +1 Dex at levels 1, 3, 5, 6 for a total of +4 at 6th level.

    The Tengu gains +1 Cha at levels 2, 5 and 6, for a total of +3 at 6th level.

    Scholar body: At 2nd level the Tengu shrinks to small size and his head becomes like that of an human, losing it's beak attack. It however can still wield medium-sized weapons whitout penalty.


    Sky Soul:
    The Tengu becomes able to cast spells as a sorceror of his level-1, with the following modifications:
    Spoiler
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    -The Tengu counts as a divine caster (this means it doesn't suffer from armor arcane spell failure).
    -The Tengu uses ofudas, small sheets of paper inscribed with mystical writings, as spell focus and material component for his magic. The cost of such ofudas is exactly the same as normal spell focus and material components (so this is basically a fluff ability).
    -The Tengu adds the spells from the Air domain to his spells known for free at the levels he becomes able to cast them.
    -The Tengu can learn spells from either the sorceror/wizard, cleric or druid spell lists. He must choose what list he can learn spells from and then cannot change change this decision.
    -However, whenever it levels up and learns new spells (including when this ability is gained), one of those spells must be from the Illusion or Divination school or have the Air descriptor.
    -Tengus cannot learn spells with the Fire descriptor.
    -The Tengu gains spell focus:illusion and spell focus:divination for free.
    -If the Tengu multiclasses into a divine fullcasting class (aka that gets 9th level spells, like cleric, but not paladin) it may choose to keep increasing this kind of spellcasting instead of that class's normal spellcasting, in wich case both classes stack for spellcasting purposes. Multiclassing as cleric won't give extra domains in this case.
    -If a Tengu picks up a Prc that advances spellcasting it may choose to keep increasing this kind of spellcasting as much levels that Prc gives altough the Tengu class is tecnically just 6 levels long. So a Tengu 6/cleric 3/fullcasting prc 10 could reach 9th level spells.



    If you have Oriental Adventures book, you may instead have the Tengu cast as a Shu-Jenga of his Tengu level-1, with the air favored elemental and prohibiting the fire element. Shu-Jenga levels stack with this ability for spellcasting purposes.

    Crow Magic:
    At levels 3, 4, 5 and 6 the Tengu can gain of the following SLAs, each useable 1/day for each HD and with saves DC 10+1/2HD+Cha mod.

    Mirror image, blur, Major Image, Invisibility.

    Wind feathers:
    the Tengu gains SR equal to 11+HD.

    Crow Feat:
    The Tengu gains a bonus feat from the following list(must meet the pre-reuquisites): dodge, mobility, spring attack, Improved Iniative, Weapon focus.


    Comments
    Spoiler
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    The Tengu is an ancient and relatively well known oriental monster altough the details of what they can actualy do are blurry.

    Anyway they're suposed to be pretty skillfull, naturally magic and prefer trickery and finesse over brute strenght.

    So they get 6 skill points per level, some SLAs, custom casting if you don't know/like the original shu-jenga, a strong incentive to use Bluff during combat, support for focusing on Dex in melee and some other stuff.

    Only one good save and weak Bab hopefully help make up for the above.

    The Tengu can go two distinct paths. Either you take just 1st level and then branch off to pure melee classes(notice you'll get juicy flying with just 1 Tengu level) for a "warrior" Tengu, or take the whole class and get a gish of sorts combining katanas with magic.

    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-22 at 05:38 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    After I get Mist dragon done, I'm thinking of doing some monsters from, what I believe to be, a third party book called "Denizens of Avadnu." Does anybody else in this thread by chance have that book?
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-22 at 01:37 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Tengu... damn. That could be really, really OP. Illusion is a powerful school, with an excellent spell at every level:
    Level 2: Invisibility or Mirror Image
    Level 3: Displacement
    Level 4: Shadow Conjuration, or invisibility (greater)
    Level 5: Shadow Evocation
    Level 6: None, really, but that has true seeing.
    Level 7: Shadow Conjuration, Greater and Simulacrum and Project Image
    Level 8: Shadow Evocation, Greater (go-go shadow Contingency!)
    Level 9: Shades, or foresight from divination.
    And that's only in core. So, its only drawback is pretty irrelevant. Fire spells suck for a batman, which it's essentially forced to be. Meanwhile, let's look at its benefits:
    1 bonus spell every level. For a sorcerer, this is huge.
    The choice of pretty much any spell, ever. This is a ridiculously good gish.
    No ASF. An even better gish.
    2 bonus feats, one of which is excellent, one of which is mediocre but still something, ya?
    Then it can multiclass into cleric, gaining 3/4 BAB and turn undead for DMM shenanigans, or a druid for even more gish options. It can also, by RAW, multiclass into a paladin or ranger, and keep up its spellcasting, as the paladin & ranger are both certainly divine spellcasting classes, no? And even if you deny those, I'm sure there are at least a couple of other classes like that that would work. I'd say it can only progress as a sorcerer. Seriously.
    Also, the BAB's all wonky. It's like some bastard hybrid of 3/4 and 1/2.

    Also, level 1's a really, really good dip, just FYI, as most of the stuff there is based off of HD instead of class levels. It's essentially a raptoran, but amazingly better.
    Change self is a 3.0 spell.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-22 at 02:44 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I've seen it at a gaming store in Nashville, but never bought it. Pretty good stuff from what I saw, though.
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  28. - Top - End - #1438

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Tengu... damn. That could be really, really OP. Illusion is a powerful school, with an excellent spell at every level:
    Level 2: Invisibility or Mirror Image
    Level 3: Displacement
    Level 4: Shadow Conjuration, or invisibility (greater)
    Level 5: Shadow Evocation
    Level 6: None, really, but that has true seeing.
    Level 7: Shadow Conjuration, Greater and Simulacrum and Project Image
    Level 8: Shadow Evocation, Greater (go-go shadow Contingency!)
    Level 9: Shades, or foresight from divination.
    And that's only in core. So, its only drawback is pretty irrelevant. Fire spells suck for a batman, which it's essentially forced to be.
    Actualy batman doesn't rely that much in illusions, wich altough powerfull can be easily defeated by simple stuff like blindsight, see invisibility and the dreaded true seeing.

    The real spellcasting gold is on the transmutation and conjuration schools, but the Tengu can pick one of those each level at best.

    I'll admit not being able to cast fire spells is almost irrelevant, but I was counting on that. The Tengu becomes an illusionist, wich is stronger than average but still weaker than a conjurer or transmuter and around as strong as a dedicated enchanter, necromancer or diviner, the later with enough splatbooks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Meanwhile, let's look at its benefits:
    1 bonus spell every level. For a sorcerer, this is huge.
    Well they're from a completely fixed spell list and nothing specially powerfull there, perhaps Wind Wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    The choice of pretty much any spell, ever. This is a ridiculously good gish.
    No ASF. An even better gish.
    2 bonus feats, one of which is excellent, one of which is mediocre but still something, ya?
    Then it can multiclass into cleric, gaining 3/4 BAB and turn undead for DMM shenanigans, or a druid for even more gish options.
    Druid won't give much as wildshape and animal companion will lag behind 6 levels.

    If the DM allows DMM shenigans then the Tengu has to compete with conjurer batmans and DMM clerics with more spells known than he has HP, or druids with pimped animal companions while wildshaping in pimped forms, and everything is allright with the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    It can also, by RAW, multiclass into a paladin or ranger, and keep up its spellcasting, as the paladin & ranger are both certainly divine spellcasting classes, no? And even if you deny those, I'm sure there are at least a couple of other classes like that that would work. I'd say it can only progress as a sorcerer. Seriously.
    Also, the BAB's all wonky. It's like some bastard hybrid of 3/4 and 1/2.
    Nice cheese catch, will correct those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Also, level 1's a really, really good dip, just FYI, as most of the stuff there is based off of HD instead of class levels. It's essentially a raptoran, but amazingly better.
    Raptorans are a race. Tengu is a class+race. A raptoran archvisit can learn pretty much spell ever as well and is always one spell level ahead of the Tengu. That would be the main balancing factors, the Tengu is both lagging behind on spell level and can only truly learn 1 spell every time he levels up. Divinations and illusions are nice and stuff but they won't win a battle for you like something like cloudkill, slow or glitterdust can do.

    Plus, I did point out I wanted to make a single dip a viable choice because the Tengu is actualy two monsters, one of them a CR 1 flier with a crow head, the other the CR 6 human headed with lagging spellcasting.

    Kyuubi:
    Wotc published five MM, numerous splatbooks with more monsters and we even have people requesting to convert gitp homebrew monsters. Could you please explain why would you want to focus on an obscure 3rd party book? Granted it's your time to spend but this thread was always more devoted for monsters other people know.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-22 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post

    Kyuubi:
    Wotc published five MM, numerous splatbooks with more monsters and we even have people requesting to convert gitp homebrew monsters. Could you please explain why would you want to focus on an obscure 3rd party book? Granted it's your time to spend but this thread was always more devoted for monsters other people know.
    a few of the monsters just looked and sounded interesting to me. I'll look for something in the monster manuals or something else though.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-08-22 at 03:37 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Actualy batman doesn't rely that much in illusions, wich altough powerfull can be easily defeated by simple stuff like blindsight, see invisibility and the dreaded true seeing.

    The real spellcasting gold is on the transmutation and conjuration schools, but the Tengu can pick one of those each level at best.
    But for a sorcerer, the shadow evocation/conjuration lines are a bloody necessity. Lots of spell functions for 1 spell, yes please- and there are a lot of options that aren't foiled by true seeing, like contingency.

    I'll admit not being able to cast fire spells is almost irrelevant, but I was counting on that. The Tengu becomes an illusionist, wich is stronger than average but still weaker than a conjurer or transmuter and around as strong as a dedicated enchanter, necromancer or diviner, the later with enough splatbooks.
    Mmm... I'd say they're on par with a diviner. It's the choice just below conjuration or transmutation.
    The big problem here is that this class gets at 2nd level what is essentially a capstone for a PrC (specifically rainbow servant), the ability to draw from both the sorc/wiz & cleric spell list, and then this one throws in druid as well. The limited spell selection balances out the spell focuses and air domain. I'd lower it a little bit: the casting is essentially flat out better than a sorcerer, for one level of missed spellcasting which gives some very tangible benefits.


    Well they're from a completely fixed spell list and nothing specially powerfull there, perhaps Wind Wall.
    They're not exceptional spells, but each gives the sorcerer some much needed versatility.

    Druid won't give much as wildshape and animal companion will lag behind 6 levels.
    From an optimization standpoint, I'd only take 2 levels.

    If the DM allows DMM shenigans then the Tengu has to compete with conjurer batmans and DMM clerics with more spells known than he has HP, or druids with pimped animal companions while wildshaping in pimped forms, and everything is allright with the world.
    Hah, well, I more just meant stuff like DMM: quicken, which is a powerful option to add to your arsenal which really isn't at all "shenanigans". I only used that word because it sounds right.


    Nice cheese catch, will correct those.
    No no, my friend, you're still behind. What about stuff like champion of gwynwhateverthef*ckthatguy'snameis? Or something like my Real Paladin? I'd explicitly say it can only be progressed by a base class that will eventually get access to 9th level spells, or a normal divine progression PrC, of course.


    Plus, I did point out I wanted to make a single dip a viable choice because the Tengu is actualy two monsters, one of them a CR 1 flier with a crow head, the other the CR 6 human headed with lagging spellcasting.
    It's a little too viable, my point was. It looks like it'd beat out most level 1 characters. But, eh, beyond that it doesn't grow much, so I suppose it's okay.
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