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  1. - Top - End - #1441
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Sorry for double posting, but I couldn't resist (there's a rebuttal on the last page, FYI). Also, could you consider adding my psionic mindflayer to the 1st page?
    Anthropomorphic Animal:
    "Hello, players. Look at your minotaur. Now back to me. Now back to your minotaur. Now back to me. Sadly, he isn't me, but if he received the same favor Oslecamo gave me he could fight like me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're in a dungeon with the monster class your minotaur could fight like. What's in your hand, back at me, I have it, it's the +1 lucky keen enervating metalline falchion you always wanted that you got from the corpse of your annihilated enemies. Look again, the falchion is now 98,000 gp worth of diamonds! Anything is possible when your monster class fights as well as me and not like an early improved monster class monster. I'm on a dragon."
    The AA is flat out more powerful than the minotaur. Now, I'm not going to try to resurrect that old argument, but I'm making a point. Look at the first monster classes you made: aside from a few, they're pretty much all low-mid tier 3. Look at the later monster classes. They're all high tier three to tier 1. If I were you, I'd just scan through some of them and tweak them up a bit, like you did with the mindflayer. The minotaur and succubus are both culprits.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-22 at 05:22 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #1442

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Sorry for double posting, but I couldn't resist (there's a rebuttal on the last page, FYI). Also, could you consider adding my psionic mindflayer to the 1st page?
    Will answer to your other stuff later, but just to point out I added your psionic mindlfayer a couple days ago already.

  3. - Top - End - #1443
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Will answer to your other stuff later, but just to point out I added your psionic mindlfayer a couple days ago already.
    *facepalm*
    I'm smart!
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  4. - Top - End - #1444

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Mmm... I'd say they're on par with a diviner. It's the choice just below conjuration or transmutation.
    The big problem here is that this class gets at 2nd level what is essentially a capstone for a PrC (specifically rainbow servant), the ability to draw from both the sorc/wiz & cleric spell list, and then this one throws in druid as well. The limited spell selection balances out the spell focuses and air domain. I'd lower it a little bit: the casting is essentially flat out better than a sorcerer, for one level of missed spellcasting which gives some very tangible benefits.
    I changed it so that you can only pick from one of the big lists of the player's choice since the shu-jenga ha to choose a clan besides elemental specialization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    No no, my friend, you're still behind. What about stuff like champion of gwynwhateverthef*ckthatguy'snameis? Or something like my Real Paladin? I'd explicitly say it can only be progressed by a base class that will eventually get access to 9th level spells, or a normal divine progression PrC, of course.
    That's what I meant, anyway extra-clarified it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    It's a little too viable, my point was. It looks like it'd beat out most level 1 characters. But, eh, beyond that it doesn't grow much, so I suppose it's okay.
    I has weak Bab and just +1 Rac dex with a d8 HD and the best weapon it can use is a bastard sword. Even a fighter with armor and a greatsword should be able to go toe to toe with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    The AA is flat out more powerful than the minotaur. Now, I'm not going to try to resurrect that old argument, but I'm making a point. Look at the first monster classes you made: aside from a few, they're pretty much all low-mid tier 3. Look at the later monster classes. They're all high tier three to tier 1. If I were you, I'd just scan through some of them and tweak them up a bit, like you did with the mindflayer. The minotaur and succubus are both culprits.
    I'll reluctantly admit that. It was the start, I was being kinda over-cautious, in particular with abilitiy scores. Would you mind pointing out other ones you think are too weak right now? Do remember I'm biased being their creator.

    Minotaur changed to give +1 Str and Con at every level.


    Succubus changed to get medium Bab, good ref saves +1 Cha at every level and two new custom abilities, one to lower oponent's AC and the other giving her a permanent custom sanctuary effect. Also allowed kiss to give increased non-charisma ability scores
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-22 at 07:27 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #1445
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    I'll reluctantly admit that. It was the start, I was being kinda over-cautious, in particular with abilitiy scores. Would you mind pointing out other ones you think are too weak right now? Do remember I'm biased being their creator.
    I'm busy trying to wrap my head around cornugon right now: none of it's abilities are really justifiable as a capstone.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-22 at 07:22 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Cornugon

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    HD: D10
    {TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
    1 | +1 | +0|+0 |+0 |Horned Body, Versatile Devil, +1 Cha
    2| +2| +0|+0 |+0 |Devil, +1 Str
    3| +3| +1|+1| +1 |Horned Hide, Bite, +1 Str
    4| +4| +1| +1|+1 |Infernal Summoning, Powerful Build, +1 Con
    5| +5| +1| +1| +1|Flight, Tail, +1 Str, +1 Dex
    6| +6| +2|+2|+2 |Magic Circle, +1 Str, +1 Cha
    7| +7| +2| +2| +2|Destroyer, +1 Str
    8| +8| +2| +2| +2|Fear Aura, +1 Str
    9| +9| +3|+3 |+3|Growth, +1 Str, +1 Con
    10| +10| +3|+3|+3 |Stun, Regeneration, +1 Str, +1 Dex
    11| +11| +3| +3|+3 |Greater Destroyer, +1 Str, +1 Cha
    12| +12| +4| +4|+4 |Infernal Wound, Greater Fear Aura, +1 Str, +1 Con
    13| +13| +4| +4| +4|Cornugon SLAs, Natural Power, +1 Str, +1 Dex
    14| +14| +4| +4| +4|Ultimate Fear Aura, +1 Str, +1 Con
    15| +15| +5| +5| +5|Greater Stun, +1 Str, +1 Dex
    16| +16| +5| +5| +5|Ultimate Destroyer, +1 Str, +1 Cha[/table]

    Skills: 2+int per level, x4 at 1st. Class skills: Bluff, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot.

    Proficiencies: The Cornugon is proficient in all simple & martial weapon, as well as one exotic weapon of its choice.

    Horned Body: The Cornugon loses all other racial traits, becoming an outsider with 30 ft. base speed, 2 claws as natural primary attacks dealing 1d6+str each.
    In addition, it gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its constitution modifier+1.

    Ability Score Increases: The Cornugon gains +1 Str every level but 1 and 4, +1 Con at levels 4, 9, 12 & 14, +1 Dex at levels 5, 10, 13 & 15, and +1 Cha at levels 1, 6, 11, & 16, for a total of +14 str, +4 con, +4 dex & +4 cha.

    Versatile Devil: At 1st level, the Cornugon chooses one of its save progressions to be good.

    Devil: The Cornugon gains a bonus on saves against poison and resistance to fire equal to its HD, and resistance to acid and cold equal to half HD. It can also see under any kind of darkness, even deeper darkness, as well as telepathy out to 10' per HD.
    It also gains the evil and lawful subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon it wields count as evil and lawful aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

    Horned Hide: The Cornugon gains SR equal to 11+HD, and DR/Good or Silver equal to 1/2 HD. This changes to DR/Silver at 6 HD, and DR/Good & Silver at 12 HD.

    Bite: At 3rd level, the Cornugon gains a bite as a secondary natural attack dealing 1d8+1/2 str damage.

    Infernal Summoning: At 4th level, the Cornugon gains the ability to summon its brethren. Once per day the Cornugon can cast Summon Monster II as an SLA, with a duration of 1 minute/level instead of 1 round/level. Every 2 class levels from there on, it progresses to the next summon monster spell, culminating at Summon Monster VIII at level 16. HD outside from Cornugon HD count as 1/2 class levels for this purpose, so with 16 levels of Cornugon and 4 levels of anything else, the Cornugon can get up to Summon Monster IX.
    The Cornugon can only summon LE or NE monsters.

    Powerful Build: At 4th level, the Cornugon gains the powerful build ability.

    Flight: At 5th level, the Cornugon's wings grow strong enough to lift it properly. It can fly at a rate of 50 ft., with average maneuverability.

    Tail: At 5th level, the Cornugon gains a tail attack dealing 1d6+1/2 str damage.

    Magic Circle: At 6th level, the Cornugon can, as a standard action, gain the effects of both a magic circle against good & a magic circle against chaos spells, as if using them both as an SLA in the same standard action. It may do this a number of times per day equal to 1/2 HD.

    Destroyer: At 7th level, the Cornugon may cast Lightning Bolt and Fireball each once per day for every HD the Cornugon has. DCs are (10+1/2HD+Cha).

    Fear Aura: At 8th level, the Cornugon may radiate a 5' radius aura of fear as a free action. Any creature in the area must succeed on a DC (10+1/2 HD+Cha Mod) Will Save or be shaken for the duration of the encounter. Those who succeessfully save cannot be affected again for the next 24 hours.

    Growth: At 9th level, the Cornugon loses its powerful build & grows to Large size and gains +1 natural armor.

    Stun: At 10th level, whenever the cornugon threatens a critical with a 2 handed weapon, the enemy must succeed on a DC (10+1/2 HD+Str Mod) Fort Save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds (which increases to 2d4 at 15 HD and 3d4 at 20 HD).

    Regeneration: At 10th level, the Cornugon gains a regeneration of 1. This increases by an additional 1 every 2 HD beyond 10.

    Greater Destroyer: At 11th level, once per day for every 5 HD the Cornugon has, it may choose to cast Flame Strike or Chain Lightning instead of either Fireball or Lightning Bolt. The damage cap for all these spells is removed.

    Infernal Wound: Opponents damaged by the Cornugon's tail attack continue to take 2 hp worth of damage every round, which does not heal naturally. This can only be ended by a DC (10+1/2 HD+Con Mod) Heal check or a cure or heal spell which succeeds on a DC (10+1/2 HD+Con Mod) CL check, or it has no effect whatsoever.

    Greater Fear Aura: At 12th level, those who fail the will save from the cornugon's aura of fear are frightened instead of shaken.

    Natural Power: The damage for all of the Cornugon's natural weapons increases by one step.

    Cornugon SLAs: At 12th level, the Cornugon may cast the following spells as SLAs once per day for every 6 HD he has: Dispel Chaos, Dispel Good, Teleport, & Persistent Image.
    At 16 HD, the Teleport becomes Greater Teleport instead.

    Ultimate Fear Aura: At 14th level, the Cornugon may choose to have enemies who fail their saves against its fear aura cower instead of becoming frightened.

    Greater Stun: At 15th level, the effect from Stun now extends to all successful hits (though still requires a save).

    Ultimate Destroyer: At 16th level, the casting time for the Cornugon's SLAs under destroyer are reduced to a swift action.


    Comments:
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    Come for the awesome basic abilities, stay for the nifty tricks and a decent blasting spell every round as a swift action. It's essentially a warlock with some nifty melee tricks: more of a swift damage dealer/stunner than tank.
    Comments? The saves+good BAB+good ability scores may be a bit much, but really, that's what the core cornugon race has to offer: not a bunch of cool abilities, just really potent ones. I wanted to make the blasting spells actually decent, and he can essentially hit you against any save (reflex for blasty spells, fort for stun, will for fear aura).
    I really like what I did with the summoning, by the way.

    Changelog: Removed good saves, added Versatile devil, added proficiencies, cut down skill points and took out +2 str, +2 dex & +2 con.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2011-02-07 at 03:34 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #1447
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I don't consider myself particularly good at balance, which is why I've mostly just watched this tread from a safe distance. However, I have noticed something with the Cornugon: it's very, very powerful. As a first level dip, it's awesome. Full bab, all good Saves, +1 Str and Cha, four good natural attacks, and a Natural Armor score based on Str for some reason. Also, as the class is currently worded, it keeps Powerful Build when it goes up to Large. I don't think this is intentional, but that's what it says.

    I just felt like it needed to be said. Sure is getting power creep in here.
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2010-08-22 at 08:44 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #1448
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I'm inclined to agree with Lyndworm. We are seeing some power creep (though some early stuff is borderline OP, it must be said). I myself am guilty of it.

    I know Oslecamo doesn't love discussing the subject, but we really should hammer out a point to aim for, as far as general power level and balance.

  9. - Top - End - #1449
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Personally, I think the ability score bonuses shouldn't be to high. The special abilities should be the source of the monster class's power
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms.Malbolge View Post
    Listen to the Crafy one. He speaks the truth, except when he doesn't which may still be the truth hidden behind a veil of crafty craftiness.

    Or something.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    [QUOTE=Lyndworm;9201792]I don't consider myself particularly good at balance, which is why I've mostly just watched this tread from a safe distance. However, I have noticed something with the Cornugon: it's very, very powerful.
    As a first level dip, it's awesome. Full bab, all good Saves, +1 Str and Cha, four good natural attacks
    It's not much more powerful than anything else with decent natural attacks: see red dragon.
    and a Natural Armor score based on Str for some reason.
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    *headdesk*
    etc.
    Also, as the class is currently worded, it keeps Powerful Build when it goes up to Large. I don't think this is intentional, but that's what it says.
    Good catch.

    Personally, I think the ability score bonuses shouldn't be to high. The special abilities should be the source of the monster class's power
    I tried. Lord knows, I tried. It gets all the abilities of a normal cornugon, plus much more: but it still wasn't enough.
    And I managed to keep it to +2 per level. In the end, it's worse than the giants, as they have a nice round +1 str +1 con: this one 'wastes' ability score bonuses on dexterity and charisma.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    How about a bugbear?
    I loves me some bugbears.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Hey. Hey. Where the heck's my Ghaele Gorgondantess?

    (I kid of course, I'm not actually that much of a douchebag. Is it still in the works?)
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  13. - Top - End - #1453

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    It's not much more powerful than anything else with decent natural attacks: see red dragon.
    At least the red dragon doesn't has all good saves, and it only gets three nat attacks.

    Also you didn't give the cornugon any proefeciencies, altough giving them would make it even more overpowered. But the picture clearly shows it with a whip.

    Plus keep standard skills. There's no predecent to 3+int skill points per level and anyway it should definetely be 2 per level with all the goodies it gets.

    Why the pimped SR? It already has caster tricks of his own like dispel magic and teleport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I tried. Lord knows, I tried. It gets all the abilities of a normal cornugon, plus much more: but it still wasn't enough.
    And I managed to keep it to +2 per level. In the end, it's worse than the giants, as they have a nice round +1 str +1 con: this one 'wastes' ability score bonuses on dexterity and charisma.
    Yes, but at least the giants have one single good save and medium Bab.

    Double ability scores every level should be reserved to classes with little on the way of nifty abilities. The cornugon (and dragons for the matter), with plenty of nifty abilities (DR, SR, flying, more SLAs that you can shake a stick at), should only get double ability scores here and there to fill blank levels or at higher levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with Lyndworm. We are seeing some power creep (though some early stuff is borderline OP, it must be said). I myself am guilty of it.

    I know Oslecamo doesn't love discussing the subject, but we really should hammer out a point to aim for, as far as general power level and balance.
    If there needs to be any power basis, it shall be the dragons. There wasn't really a power creep. There were just monsters that ended up too weaker than the dragons. Because the dragons came first and were the ones I spent more work designing.

    Anyway, the cornugon definetely goes over dragon level and that's bad. I've said it once and I'll say it again, all good saves and good Bab should be reserved for monsters with some really limiting characteristic, like the phoenix that has no hands and no great melee capacity.

    EDIT: Nerfed the Spellwarped creature, making it unable to absorb any and every magic now. In return it gets a good will save, and two extra ability score increases at second level. Toughts?
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 05:21 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Can I take Half-Golem more than once?
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard View Post
    Can I take Half-Golem more than once?
    No. That's one of the reasons why I made them all the same class.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    On the subject of too many natural attacks at first level.

    I tend to give natural attacks over the levels. At 1st level, give the primary natural weapon (one bite or two claws), and later on give the secondaries (not all at once, of course), or make some similar change.
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    Homebrewing

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    At least the red dragon doesn't has all good saves, and it only gets three nat attacks.
    True: on the saves thing, I wasn't sure which save to be good, so I just gave it all saves as good. And if you suggest it should get good fort saves, I'll hit you. The Cornugon isn't a big "Hulk smash!" guy.
    Eh, screw it, I'll let the players choose.

    Also you didn't give the cornugon any proefeciencies, altough giving them would make it even more overpowered. But the picture clearly shows it with a whip.
    Blhhhh... forgot those. All simple & martial and one exotic. No armor or shields.

    Plus keep standard skills. There's no predecent to 3+int skill points per level and anyway it should definetely be 2 per level with all the goodies it gets.
    I donno... it just appealed to me at the time.

    Why the pimped SR? It already has caster tricks of his own like dispel magic and teleport.
    ...It has dispel magic? Where?
    And, eh, that's the SR it gets in the SRD.
    Yes, but at least the giants have one single good save and medium Bab.
    Ah, 'tis true.

    Double ability scores every level should be reserved to classes with little on the way of nifty abilities. The cornugon (and dragons for the matter), with plenty of nifty abilities (DR, SR, flying, more SLAs that you can shake a stick at), should only get double ability scores here and there to fill blank levels or at higher levels.
    Okiedokie. I'll cut it down to +1 a level until, say, level 8?


    If there needs to be any power basis, it shall be the dragons. There wasn't really a power creep. There were just monsters that ended up too weaker than the dragons. Because the dragons came first and were the ones I spent more work designing.
    I agree- they look pretty well balanced.

    Anyway, the cornugon definetely goes over dragon level and that's bad. I've said it once and I'll say it again, all good saves and good Bab should be reserved for monsters with some really limiting characteristic, like the phoenix that has no hands and no great melee capacity.
    Righto. Well, I want to keep the good BAB... but I'm torn as to which saves to lose.

    Hey. Hey. Where the heck's my Ghaele Gorgondantess?

    (I kid of course, I'm not actually that much of a douchebag. Is it still in the works?)
    Yes it is.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-23 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    True: on the saves thing, I wasn't sure which save to be good, so I just gave it all saves as good. And if you suggest it should get good fort saves, I'll hit you. The Cornugon isn't a big "Hulk smash!" guy.
    Well, it is "Hulk smash you so hard you can't move!" guy. And you gave it d10 HD when all the other devils have been geting a d8.

    BTW, your Stun ability works whetever they make the save or no right now. And it still has all good saves.Ah good you corrected it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Blhhhh... forgot those. All simple & martial and one exotic. No armor or shields.
    Why any? They're clearly specialized in spiked chains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    ...It has dispel magic? Where?
    Nevermind, confused it with the dispel good and chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And, eh, that's the SR it gets in the SRD.
    It also gets base 31 Str, at will SLAs and other stuff that isn't apropriate for players. We've already gone trough this, we don't just copy-pasta the monster statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Okiedokie. I'll cut it down to +1 a level until, say, level 8?
    Looks much better that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Yes it is.
    If you don't hurry up I'll end up doing it myself.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 11:13 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Well, it is "Hulk smash you so hard you can't move!" guy. And you gave it d10 HD when all the other devils have been geting a d8.
    I gave the Vrock d10. It's still tough.

    BTW, your Stun ability works whetever they make the save or no right now. And it still has all good saves.Ah good you corrected it.
    I suppose you could see it that way... clarified.


    Why any? They're clearly specialized in spiked chains.
    For the same reason you gave any to gnolls, when they clearly use a flindbar. "We've already gone trough this, we don't just copy-pasta the monster statistics", yes? A lot of people don't like spiked chains but like cornugons.

    It also gets base 31 Str, at will SLAs and other stuff that isn't apropriate for players. We've already gone trough this, we don't just copy-pasta the monster statistics.
    Oh, come on, it's 2 more than standard. And I KNOW I've done that before, and you said nothing of it.

    If you don't hurry up I'll end up doing it myself.
    No, no, it should be done by friday or saturday.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    For the same reason you gave any to gnolls, when they clearly use a flindbar. "We've already gone trough this, we don't just copy-pasta the monster statistics", yes? A lot of people don't like spiked chains but like cornugons.
    Besides you I haven't met a single one like that but you do have a point. Meh spiked chain's the best exotic weapon anyway so not much chances of cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Oh, come on, it's 2 more than standard. And I KNOW I've done that before, and you said nothing of it.
    Golems, the dudes wich are suposed to shrugg off magic like it's nothing. That's why I didn't complain there.

    EDIT: Spoted at will-slas. Out. Don't care if they're evocations. Also give them acess to both fireball and lighting bolt.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Besides you I haven't met a single one like that but you do have a point. Meh spiked chain's the best exotic weapon anyway so not much chances of cheese.
    My thoughts exactly. I might decide to just make it a two-handed exotic weapon, though.

    Golems, the dudes wich are suposed to shrugg off magic like it's nothing. That's why I didn't complain there.
    Alright, alright, you've made your point. I'll reduce the SR by two points.

    EDIT: Spoted at will-slas. Out. Don't care if they're evocations. Also give them acess to both fireball and lighting bolt.
    Oh come on, what's wrong with at will SLAs? I fully intend to give that to the marraenoloth (produce flame, so it has survivability at low levels, and actually I'm making it essentially his combat power by adding buffs to it. Seriously. That thing has SLAs, and fear gaze. That's it. Lemme tell ya, I have my work cut out for me.)
    I meant to give it access to both... I just worded it very, very badly.
    Last edited by Gorgondantess; 2010-08-23 at 07:04 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    I think the problem with at-will SLAs is that they're at-will. Even dragon breath, an ability that's a staple of a dragon, is only once every 1d4 rounds.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    I think the problem with at-will SLAs is that they're at-will. Even dragon breath, an ability that's a staple of a dragon, is only once every 1d4 rounds.
    When the warlock came out, there were people saying OMGWTFBBQOP!!!1!11! because all of its abilities were at will. The warlock is a tier 4 class. Fireball isn't much better than EB. Many might say it is worse. I'm keeping it at will.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Oh come on, what's wrong with at will SLAs?
    One of the basic rules of this project. At-will SLAs are bad because it's much easier to abuse an infinite resource than a finite one.

    You see fireball's range? How many things can match that?(not eldritch blast you can bet) And the horned devil can fly on top of that. Suddenly the horned devil doesn't care at all that he's good with two handed weapons or whatever. He just flies really high and keeps nuking. Suspicious of hiding oponents? Lit the whole room on fire! Need to assault a fortress? Melt it down with a few hundred fireballs. Simply put your Horned devil can solve pretty much any problem with fire and some patience.

    That's why at-will SLAs are out. So you can't just say "I drop a hundred fireballs on it from afar" and go have a soda.

    The warlock is balanced by the fact it has acess only to very nerfed "spells" and knows very little of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    I fully intend to give that to the marraenoloth (produce flame, so it has survivability at low levels, and actually I'm making it essentially his combat power by adding buffs to it. Seriously. That thing has SLAs, and fear gaze. That's it. Lemme tell ya, I have my work cut out for me.)
    Then design new abilities not based on at-will SLAs. That's our work here.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 07:14 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    One of the basic rules of this project. At-will SLAs are bad because it's much easier to abuse an infinite resource than a finite one.

    You see fireball's range? How many things can match that?(not eldritch blast you can bet) And the horned devil can fly on top of that. Suddenly the horned devil doesn't care at all that he's good with two handed weapons or whatever. He just flies really high and keeps nuking. Suspicious of hiding oponents? Lit the whole room on fire! Need to assault a fortress? Melt it down with a few hundred fireballs. Simply put your Horned devil can solve pretty much any problem with fire and some patience.

    That's why at-will SLAs are out. So you can't just say "I drop a hundred fireballs on it from afar" and go have a soda.
    Yes Eldritch Blast, I can bet. A warlock can do all that and more with eldritch spear. 250' range- same as a 15th level fireball. And something with evasion or fire immunity will still lose against it. I really don't see the problem.

    The warlock is balanced by the fact it has acess only to very nerfed "spells" and knows very little of them.
    Right. All this gets is... dispel good/chaos, magic circle, fireball/lightning, persistent image, and teleport. Yes, it's more powerful than a warlock. This is a good thing.



    Then design new abilities not based on at-will SLAs. That's our work here.
    Okay, lemme get this straight. It would be okay to have this:
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    Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand for one minute/HD. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

    In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per HD (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

    This ability does not function underwater.


    But Produce Flame as an at will SLA is not okay? Pardon me, but that strikes me as quite illogical.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Yes Eldritch Blast, I can bet. A warlock can do all that and more with eldritch spear. 250' range- same as a 15th level fireball.
    Fireball has 400 foot range +40 per CL. At 15th CL that's 1000 feet. Over four times the warlock range, after he burned one of his valuable invocations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    And something with evasion or fire immunity will still lose against it. I really don't see the problem.
    Stuff with fire immunity isn't that common. Fire resistance yes, but not full fire immunity. And neither does evasion fully protect from it. So yes, there's a problem with extreme-range attacks that end up dealing some damage. You can hurt them. They cannot hurt you. Victory is yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Right. All this gets is... dispel good/chaos, magic circle, fireball/lightning, persistent image, and teleport. Yes, it's more powerful than a warlock. This is a good thing.
    It's stronger than cleric unless they happen to have some high mobility trick. This is a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Okay, lemme get this straight. It would be okay to have this:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Flames as bright as a torch appear in your open hand for one minute/HD. The flames harm neither you nor your equipment.

    In addition to providing illumination, the flames can be hurled or used to touch enemies. You can strike an opponent with a melee touch attack, dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 +1 point per HD (maximum +5). Alternatively, you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon. When doing so, you attack with a ranged touch attack (with no range penalty) and deal the same damage as with the melee attack. No sooner do you hurl the flames than a new set appears in your hand. Each attack you make reduces the remaining duration by 1 minute. If an attack reduces the remaining duration to 0 minutes or less, the spell ends after the attack resolves.

    This ability does not function underwater.


    But Produce Flame as an at will SLA is not okay? Pardon me, but that strikes me as quite illogical.
    Of course not a perfect copy of the spell. Something shorter ranged scaling by level that even at level 20 would be inferir to a pure produce flame.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 07:37 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Fireball has 400 foot range +40 per CL. At 15th CL that's 1000 feet. Over four times the warlock range, after he burned one of his valuable invocations.
    *facepalm*
    Right. That's what I get for assuming fireball has a medium range.


    Stuff with fire immunity isn't that common. Fire resistance yes, but not full fire immunity. And neither does evasion fully protect from it. So yes, there's a problem with extreme-range attacks that end up dealing some damage. You can hurt them. They cannot hurt you. Victory is yours.
    Alright... let me rephrase this.
    Flying. Ranged attacks. They work.

    It's stronger than cleric unless they happen to have some high mobility trick. This is a bad thing.
    Oooookayyy... you never brought this up before. How so?


    Of course not a perfect copy of the spell. Something shorter ranged scaling by level that even at level 20 would be inferir to a pure produce flame.
    Oh come on! It's produce flame! A 3rd level warlock's EB is significantly more powerful.
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  28. - Top - End - #1468

    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Alright... let me rephrase this.
    Flying. Ranged attacks. They work.
    Some ranged attacks work better than others. A bow doesn't allow you to take down a fortress (unless you spend a small fortune in adamantine arrows) and rays don't allow you to carpet bomb an area to flush out hidden enemies. Plus both of them are easily blocked by some cover. Fireball isn't. At will it becomes simply too good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Oooookayyy... you never brought this up before. How so?
    Clerics rely on short/medium range offensive spells to deal with oponents at range. Or wind wall to shut down regular ranged weapons.
    Clerics at best have air walk to fly around unless they take a specific domain. But they're also wearing heavy armor.

    Cleric can shrugg off fireballs for some time with healing and resistance buffs but they will go down because they're still being worn down whitout being able to strike back.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorgondantess View Post
    Oh come on! It's produce flame! A 3rd level warlock's EB is significantly more powerful.
    What CR is that one again? I don't remember from wich book it is now.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-08-23 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    See, around half of those presented by you are from dire animals, wich are unsuitable for this class, just like I'm not picking abilities from magical beasts or outsiders.

    Rake is automatically out because like explained in the original class it just doesn't work with humanoid bodies.

    But thanks for the others anyway, I'll see what I can do with them.
    While they're from Dire Animals, they're not 100% unsuitable. The Dire Shark's Swallow Whole would work for a Large or Huge size AA that's half snake or half shark. They're still animals, just really nasty and vastly stronger/more dangerous versions.

    I like the class. If I didn't hate the character creation process with a passion and had the time to fit in another game, I'd be looking to use this.
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    Default Re: [3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Some ranged attacks work better than others. A bow doesn't allow you to take down a fortress (unless you spend a small fortune in adamantine arrows) and rays don't allow you to carpet bomb an area to flush out hidden enemies. Plus both of them are asily blocked by some cover. Fireball isn't. At will it becomes simply too good.


    Clerics rely on short/medium range offensive spells to deal with oponents at range. Or wind wall to shut down regular ranged weapons.
    Clerics at best have air walk to fly around unless they take a specific domain. But they're also wearing heavy armor.

    Cleric can shrugg off fireballs for some time with healing and resistance buffs but they will go down because they're still being worn down whitout being able to strike back.
    Le sigh.
    Fine, fine, I'll cut it down to once per day/HD.



    What CR is that one again? I don't remember from wich book it is now.
    MMII, CR 10. The sad thing about that is that its best ability is a bunch of at will SLAs, none of which is above level 3 (except for teleport). It can also cause you to be shaked for 1d4 rounds if you fail a will save. So, I'm going to give it the ability to do stuff like change produce flame (one of its only offensive spells) to negative energy damage, probably as a capstone wisdom or charisma damage, and maybe throw a negative level in there somewhere.

    Also, if you have any ideas on abilities that might be related to being a boatman without being highly situational, please do tell. I was thinking of giving it a skiff that would work like a phantom steed.
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