[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[demidracolich]

Why does the ogre have 3+int mod skill points? As far as I know that doesn't exist and doesn't make sense for it either.

[Oslecamo]

Why does the ogre have 3+int mod skill points? As far as I know that doesn't exist and doesn't make sense for it either.

Don't bother too much with it, Imp decided to break all the rules I had stablished so far, and wants the PCs to be actualy stronger than the original monsters before gear, rolling stats and feats. I did my best to explain him my design philosophy but it didn't work out so let him post whatever he wants and we'll keep doing our own work.

[flabort]

Ah, thank you.
@Oslecamo:
Uh, yah, it still gets extra dex because it was a copy-pasta job in the begining. er... I couldn't figure out how to "quater" the dex it gets, without flat out removing it.
And perhaps a clause stating that it may return to human form after it regrows it's (cauterized) heads, and each (cauterized) head takes... 10 minutes? to regrow... and it can't regrow this way beyond it's "normal" number?

@Kyuubi:
Thank you. It doesn't need to be good... uh... you don't really have too, either, but... thank you.

yah, a few tweeks might be nessesary.

Edit: ok, reduced dex increase, and added clause. er... it may still be a bit confusingly writen,... but... any other problems?

[Mystic Muse]

How many heads, what size, and what weapon/s Should he be wielding?

[imp_fireball]

Second, I'm not a suporter of "PCs should automaticall be the most awesome thing on the face of existence!" philosophy. If you want to be awesome work for it. Multiclass, negotiate buffs, get proper gear. Your character isn't just his class. It's also his feats, his equipment, his allies, his choices. All things in wich NPCs are heavily gimped.

That's why the GM just sends stronger NPCs at the PC's way. There's a serious problem if the GM doesn't know how to do that.

Don't bother too much with it, Imp decided to break all the rules I had stablished so far, and wants the PCs to be actualy stronger than the original monsters before gear, rolling stats and feats. I did my best to explain him my design philosophy but it didn't work out so let him post whatever he wants and we'll keep doing our own work.

Well with your design philosophy an optimized PC LA'd ogre has the same strength as an optimized PC with 20 levels in balor. Sure ogres are strong, but a Balor is supposed to be a friggin' titan. Not to mention a player has to give up their racial choice to become a Balor.

I'm just a fan of having the mechanics obey the fluff rather then the other way around. No reason to get frustrated about that.

As far as I know that doesn't exist and doesn't make sense for it either.

Why doesn't it make sense?

I put it in there because my ogre actually loses out slightly on skill points compared to the LA'd ogre with racial hit dice (if he were to have 2+int sp that is). It's 4 points above the regular ogre with +0 Int, but IMO, it pays off for having the player having to invest 3 levels to become a full ogre.

[mrcarter11]

Ok, imp I get what you are saying, I dont really agree..... but that is beside the point. Dude, if you go that much on an issue with the classes, just don't use them. Start your thread with your classes and see what happens.. But at this point, your just wasting your wasting your time and you are beating the dead horse.. Just let it die man

[imp_fireball]

Start your thread with your classes and see what happens..

I'd prefer to use this thread if it's okay with the OP.

I've got a history of people ignoring my threads unless it involves some totally radical idea that ends up going no where.

[mrcarter11]

Well, gee I have no clue why that could be. Well, I do not know if requests can still be made, but if so... I would like to see more of the devils.. Like the bone, chain, barbed.. Or if possible, the dukes themselves.. IF possible, the dukes are my request.. More specific would be fourth, ninth ,first, eighth.. In that order..

[imp_fireball]

You're fighting a losing battle here imp. If you really want this you should make it yourself but I don't expect many people to use it. No offence.

Is it because people don't like change? I don't get it.

EDIT:your ogre atempt breaks so many of my rules that I won't even bother pointing them out. Also if you had readed the first post of the thread you would've noticed there's a general rule that forbids you from mixing monster classes.

You should probably PEACH it anyway just so I know exactly what you're referring to. BTW, I don't like to pay tribute to monsters - I like to actually follow them to measure. That's just me though.

That's called standard monster classes. Already done in Savage Species. But whitout the Fallout naming. You're just overcomplicating here.

Exactly what is called 'standard monster classes'? Is it my 'perks'? What were you addressing that I said?

Well, gee I have no clue why that could be.

Because people don't appreciate new ideas that involve new genres and new settings? Sorry, that's just how I take offense.

[Mystic Muse]

Is it because people don't like change? I don't get it.

The problem is You and Oslecamo have different opinions of balance. I need to look over your classes personally but We probably do as well. Since Oslecamo is the OP, while you don't always have to agree with the OP, you should take your classes to a different thread if you aren't going to try and follow the same philosophy as the others.

[mrcarter11]

I don't mind new ideas. I just like to have my ideas separated... So if I wanna see something from idea A, I look in that spot. And if I want something idea B related I look there.. When they are in the same spot, well when I want idea A, I always find B and vice versa.

[Mystic Muse]

Looking at your Ogre class I wouldn't allow it in any game I ran. You get +5 NA, +10 STR, +4 Constitution, +10 foot movement, full BAB, and large size from three levels? I'm sorry, but that isn't fair at all.

[Oslecamo]

Well with your design philosophy an optimized PC LA'd ogre has the same strength as an optimized PC with 20 levels in balor. Sure ogres are strong, but a Balor is supposed to be a friggin' titan. Not to mention a player has to give up their racial choice to become a Balor.

See, that's called balance.

A LAd ogre is strong. The mental penalties means it's then forced to become a dumb fighter/barbarian wich really limits his options.

A PC Balor is strong, much more charismatic, has a wide array of SLAs, better BAB, saves, skill points, flying, minions, DR, spell resistance and several other abilities. And actualy has 20 HD by 20th level. He's just as physically strong as the LAd ogre, but also tougher and able to attack his oponents trough other ways (like save or die SLAs), and much more versatile overall.

If the Balor is also stronger than the ogre, then why would anyone want to play the ogre?

I'd prefer to use this thread if it's okay with the OP.

I can't stop you from using but I can choose to ignore your material that clearly goes against my design philosophies and not add your work to my index wich mean it will be slowly but surely buried in oblivion under other posts.

I've got a history of people ignoring my threads unless it involves some totally radical idea that ends up going no where.

See, that's the hard part of homebrewing. I literally spent years tinkering with this idea, the balance implications, how it should be presented, etc, etc.

And hey, from all the feedback it seems like people like my ideas! But it wasn't easy. I had to do a lot of work, listen to the people and think of solutions that would satisfy as much persons as possible.

So, if you want to take advantage of the popularity my thread achieved, the minimum you could do is follow my design philosophies don't you think?

Is it because people don't like change? I don't get it.

If that change leads to blatant inbalance and other problems, yes, people don't like it. Huge ability scores is just not balanced. That's half the reason why polymorph is considered one of the most broken spells out there.

You should probably PEACH it anyway just so I know exactly what you're referring to.

Full BAB(giants just have medium), one extra HD than normal, 3+skill points per level, mental penalties means it's forced to be a dumb fighter/barbarian and can't be anything else, +10 str and large size in just 3 levels means it's overpowered compared to pretty much the rest of my work.

Oh, and not a single level-scaling ability.

BTW, I don't like to pay tribute to monsters - I like to actually follow them to measure.

Well I don't. The title of this thread even says "adapting creatures for player use". Again, start your own thread and see how much people like your own ideas if you don't agree with mine.

That's just me though.

Well if that's just you why do you expect other people will like your work? You've got to listen to the people. This thread aims at providing options to players wich won't get auto-banned in 99% of the campaigns out there. +10 str, large size and one more HD than normal with 3 levels definetely doesn't fall on that category.

Exactly what is called 'standard monster classes'? Is it my 'perks'? What were you addressing that I said?

Savage species monster classes grant abilities at certain levels whitout granting HDs. Aka what you called perks. It works poorly.

Because people don't appreciate new ideas that involve new genres and new settings? Sorry, that's just how I take offense.

New=/= good. Other people presented new ideas as well. Some of them were acepted other rejected. You made your point, and we didn't acept it. You can't expect everybody to have your personal tastes.

[Hyudra]

Ogre

Spoiler

Show

HD:d8
Proficiencies: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
Skills: 3 + Int Modifier
Climb, Listen and Spot are Class Skills.
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 1|+2 |+0 | +0| Ogre Body, -2 Dexterity, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma, +1 Natural Armor, +3 Strength
2|+ 2|+ 3|+ 1| + 1| Growth, +10ft. Base Speed, +2 Natural Armor, +3 Strength, +2 Constitution, Darkvision 60ft.
3|+ 3|+ 4|+1| +1 | +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Natural Armor
[/table]

Ogre Body

The ogre loses all prior racial bonuses and abilities. They gain 1d8 additional hp to suit their natural toughness (counts as hit die for the purpose of applying constitution modifier to hp). They cannot take levels in any other monster class other than ogre except for 'template monster classes' such as 'zombie'.

Growth

Size permanently shifts from medium to large.

If you're trolling this thread, imp, then I give you a 2/10.
If you're genuinely attempting to make a class, I give you a 0/10.

Your pick.

Your creature is unbalanced to the point that no DM (not even the bad ones) will let you play it, it doesn't fit the templates established in this thread, it doesn't fit even established D&D standards (3+int skill points/level?) and with all the penalties thrown into it, it doesn't even look that fun to play. It doesn't scale at all, to make matters worse, so whatever measures are taken to make it weaker at lower levels are going to cripple it at higher levels.

I don't even know why you're posting in this thread, because your homebrew has little (if anything) to do with the ongoing theme here. Add my name to the list of people saying "Use Oslecamo's methodology, provide concrete and balance-driven reasons why it doesn't work, or go make your own thread."

[flabort]

wow. that is a fierce beat down going down on that guy.

granted, it's earned, and he does deserve it... but... wow.
(S)he's human, too. And Imp may have a breaking limit.

But, yes, that is definitly broken (Overpowered) at lower levels, and broken (underpowered) at higher levels... or should I say it's special qualities are underpowered at higher levels, and it's stats/abilities are still overpowered at those same higher levels.

I am with the "for player use" boat too, but, I do think that is a bit fierce of a beat down. Sorry, Imp, but maybe you should try your own thread.

[Mystic Muse]

Hey Flabort. When it comes to the Werehydra, how many heads do you want the picture to have, what weapons, and what size?


And I apologize if our beatdown is a bit much. I just don't think his class is balanced and it doesn't follow Oslecamo's philosophy at all so it needs a different thread.

[imp_fireball]

Your creature is unbalanced to the point that no DM (not even the bad ones) will let you play it, it doesn't fit the templates established in this thread, it doesn't fit even established D&D standards (3+int skill points/level?) and with all the penalties thrown into it, it doesn't even look that fun to play. It doesn't scale at all, to make matters worse, so whatever measures are taken to make it weaker at lower levels are going to cripple it at higher levels.

So your accusing me of stuff, but you aren't giving any reasons. For example, why is it such a serious problem that 3+int isn't standard? Why is it so bad that it doesn't fit the templates established in this thread?

As for the penalties, I'll create a few feats to accommodate the player a little better - I'm thinking charmer, caster, and rogue fits.

+10 str, large size and one more HD than normal with 3 levels definetely doesn't fall on that category.

The main thing here is that the player loses any benefits of any other race they chose. They are essentially ogres plain and simple. The actual ogre has La +2 even, meaning that the ogre as it stands could take a PC level in a 3rd level adventure whereas this ogre as it stands requires a 4th level adventure to take a PC level (if they wanna be full ogres).

BTW, I'm not making my own thread. Mainly because you guys are freaking out a bit much. I suggest learning some meditation techniques. I'm not spreading propaganda about how terrible a homebrewer the OP is, whereas it's gradually (perhaps unintentionally) diverting towards that for me.

[Mystic Muse]

So your accusing me of stuff, but you aren't giving any reasons. For example, why is it such a serious problem that 3+int isn't standard? Why is it so bad that it doesn't fit the templates established in this thread?
.

Because, if you're going to try and profit from the popularity of this thread you should try and follow the design philosophy. Right now, if somebody were looking through this thread for a character to play, if they wanted to play a fighter type they have absolutely no reason not to choose your class.

The main thing here is that the player loses any benefits of any other race they chose. They are essentially ogres plain and simple. The actual ogre has La +2 even, meaning that the ogre as it stands could take a PC level in a 3rd level adventure whereas this ogre as it stands requires a 4th level adventure to take a PC level (if they wanna be full ogres).

Okay. here's where the misunderstanding is. The ogre in the SRD has LA+2 and 4 Racial hit dice. That means you have to start off at ECL 6 before you can take any levels.

[imp_fireball]

That means you have to start off at ECL 6 before you can take any levels.

That seems like a big crap shoot for the player.

Normally, I'd rule ECL 3 (although the ogre would be technically ECL 7 with a PC level). The Ogre would still be more penalized in LA buy off for having RHD, but the other players would have to catch up to the ogre.

if they wanted to play a fighter type they have absolutely no reason not to choose your class.

Hardly. A water orc barbarian 3 has 3d12 HD compared to 4d8 HD for the ogre 3. Granted, the ogre has far more hp, but the barbarian has rage, swimming, and is more on his way to other benefits of being a barbarian when leveling up. The same goes for maneuver types like the warblade, etc.

Also, the benefits of being an ogre peter out since the natural armor bonus doesn't increase when the ogre takes levels in other classes. It's a one trick pony, but then again that's how most of the races are in the SRD (even some of the core races are like this). It's just a pure ogre is all.

Probably the biggest benefit for the ogre is the ability to take feats with high ability score requirements like 'awesome blow' (which as a GM, I'd allow players to take despite the [monster] tag assuming they meet the requirements) - but there's very few of those around.

the minimum you could do is follow my design philosophies don't you think?

No offense, but I didn't see any philosophy in the design. Just design.

[Mystic Muse]

That seems like a big crap shoot for the player.

For some reason, WOTC just said "Rather than make it so players can't play these classes we'll give them unnecessary amounts of LA and RHD so that they won't want to play them.

Hardly. A water orc barbarian 3 has 3d12 HD compared to 4d8 HD for the ogre 3. Granted, the ogre has far more hp, but the barbarian has rage, swimming, and is more on his way to other benefits of being a barbarian when leveling up. The same goes for maneuver types like the warblade, etc.

Also, the benefits of being an ogre peter out since the natural armor bonus doesn't increase when the ogre takes levels in other classes. It's a one trick pony, but then again that's how most of the races are in the SRD. It's just a pure ogre is all.

That's assuming the water orc is going to be a Barbarian. They might want to play a fighter or something else. Even if not, you can take one level of Ogre and take another level later when you want more Bonuses and you still get Full BAB.

I'm sure Oslecamo will explain better.

EDIT: make your own thread. Either A. you'll be right and now you have your own thread to make these in rather than taking over Oslecamo's thread or B. YOu'll learn that a lot of other people don't consider it balanced either.

[imp_fireball]

They might want to play a fighter or something else.

Everyone knows how much that stinks so it shouldn't be any different if they find themselves underplayed.

rather than taking over Oslecamo's thread

I'm not trying to take over. It's better if the thread can be shared, unless it's being 'overflown' somehow. It shouldn't be all that inconveniencing otherwise.

In fact, having multiple threads on a forum reduces the odds of decent threads getting read. If multiple new content appears on one thread, I (personally) would read it all if I had the time and I felt like it. Most people don't scroll to page 2 on the home brewing forum, or any forum for that matter unless they're searching for something specific.

[Mystic Muse]

Honestly, make your own thread and ask for criticism there. If there's a problem, people with a better sense of balance than I have will point it out. If there isn't, then you have your own thread instead of hijacking Oslecamo's. Because right now, your monsters don't follow Oslecamo's philosophy at all.

[imp_fireball]

However, it doesn't matter if you're a on e trick pony if you're satisfied with that one trick and never actually need another one.

The ogre is pretty easy to counter. Have melee enemies perform hit and runs, where they hit, and then tumble away into small spaces that the ogre's size cannot fit through - just one example. The ogre also has no skills. Have the enemies shoot from a high wall that the ogre can't scale with climb. Or spring some traps. The barbarian on the other hand can gain climb speed with one of his totems, survive traps (albeit very small bonus to doing so), gain a bonus on will saves with rage, etc.

I'm considering making the ogre 4 levels actually.

EDIT: Alright I adjusted the ogre. Growth, +4 Strength and +2 Natural Armor are the 'cap stone' bundle acquired at 4th level. Also, no more 2d8 hp at first level.

[flabort]

Hey Flabort. When it comes to the Werehydra, how many heads do you want the picture to have, what weapons, and what size?


And I apologize if our beatdown is a bit much. I just don't think his class is balanced and it doesn't follow Oslecamo's philosophy at all so it needs a different thread.

concerning the second, true. I didn't say he didn't deserve it, I only said he (probably) had a breaking point.

concerning the first:
er... you're actually going to make one? uh... thank you!
Uh... how about... eight heads, and a spiked chain (TWF spiked chains?). um... do you mean what size, as in, medium, large, or collosal, or what size of image? if you mean the first type, Huge should be good. if the image size, it doesn't really matter.
actually, how would you tell (the first)? without a reference within the image, it wouldn't matter much.

edit: added another quote:

I'm not trying to take over. It's better if the thread can be shared, unless it's being 'overflown' somehow. It shouldn't be all that inconveniencing otherwise.

reply spoilered (wall of text, and sensitive issue):

Spoiler

Show

Listen, over in another forum, i've got a "warning".
they function on a "three strikes your out" theory :
get three "warning"s from the modderators, which they hand out for flaming, trolling, and generally breaking the rules, and you're temp-banned (a week the first time, and longer periods for further times.)
if your temp-banned three times, you're perma-banned. no more forum for you, but atleast you need to break 9 rules before that happens. or, "need" isn't the right word...
And, warnings don't expire (i'm pretty sure).

any ways, I'm one ninth on my way to banned there (one warning), because I got myself into a similar situation. I posted something in someone's thread, thought my opinion was perfect, immesurable, infailible.
It developed into a flame war. everyone (including the modderator involved, name and forum withheld) got a warning. 5 warnings handed out. to 5 people, granted, but 5 warnings.
I'm seeing a sign that this is degrading into a flame war here, with a whole page of "your not listening" and "why do I care about the OP's design phylosiphy, I made it" as a warning sign. I may be misinterpreting, but, trust me.

Your making a mistake continuing your argument. I know, from TRIAL AND ERROR, and trust me, the OP. IS. RIGHT.

I may recieve a warning from a modderator on this forum for describing as such in detail, but really, the only reason the beat-down seems to be continueing, is because you keep fighting it. please stop before you get a warning, too.

[Mystic Muse]

It'll take a little while and it won't look great but yeah I'll make one.

However, Dual wielding spiked chains? It's fine, I just think that would go horribly wrong. Of course this is D&D so meh.

Whoo! made Ettin!

[flabort]

dual wielding isn't nessesary. I only put that, because I'm pretty sure huge size can hold two-handed weapons in one hand, and siege weapons in two hands. so, just an idea. one may be a lot better.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, spoiler cause the image was a little big.

Spoiler

Show

[IMG][/IMG]

Werehydra! because your indecision wasn't bad enough already.

Like I said, it's not very good.

[Oslecamo]

Woot spiked chain wielding werehydra! i can't wait to see that image! I'm sure it'll give us the needed inspiration for the final tweaks!

The ogre also has no skills. Have the enemies shoot from a high wall that the ogre can't scale with climb. Or spring some traps. The barbarian on the other hand can gain climb speed with one of his totems, survive traps (albeit very small bonus to doing so), gain a bonus on will saves with rage, etc.

Now you're geting a little closer. Many monsters are one trick ponies. That's bad for players. In this thread we don't just nerf down overpowered abilities. We also fill in weaknesses of the monsters.

The giants in particular. In the MM they're just dudes with huge strenght and little more. In this thread, they don't get those massive strenght bonus, but get usefull flavourfull custom abilities to give the player options so he isn't forced to become a one trick pony.

Aka, big powers for big penalties (like massive strenght for idiotic mental stats) is not balanced or fun. At best, you can make custom penalties that won't punish any class choice in particular, like the ghost, vampire and dryad have here.

But ending up with a character that dominates certain combats and then has to sit down doing nothing on others is precisely the kind of thing I'm trying to avoid here.

[Mystic Muse]

While not a great picture, the werehydra is up.

[imp_fireball]

Stuff about warnings and stuff

I'm trying to be as passive as I can here. I don't really want to continue this discussion, but I'll just say that I don't think it's necessary that I start a new thread.

If my stuff is peached up to standard, then it's your choice if you want to add it to the OP. Fair at all?