[3.5]Improved monster classes: adapting creatures for player use-taking requests!

[Hyudra]

Alas, you'll be missed, Oslecamo.

Good luck with finals. May your pencils be sharp and your questions ask just what you know.

[flabort]

Awsome fire giant, there. Myself, I can't find any problem with it. Of course, since your an expert, and I'm a novice...

Nice work on keeping all the fire theme up, and Swat works really well!

[Hyudra]

Thanks for that, Flabort. Even if you don't have a lot of constructive criticism to offer, it makes a difference to know my work has been read & appreciated. I like the imagery of a higher level Fire Giant backhanding a pegasus-mounted knight out of the air, then stomping on rider & mount before they can recover.

Thinking I may do something smaller and more mundane before moving on to Cloud Giant. Like, Carrion Crawler, Rust Monster or Ankheg.

[Mystic Muse]

So, is the Pyroclastic dragon usable as a PC now?

[Hyudra]

I'm of the opinion that it still feels a little rough around the edges. There's just a lot of stretches where you don't get anything of interest for 2 levels straight.

Also, it's kind of lacking flavor. If I didn't look it up, I wouldn't know that it was a planar dragon, or anything besides a sound/fire hybrid dragon.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm of the opinion that it still feels a little rough around the edges. There's just a lot of stretches where you don't get anything of interest for 2 levels straight.

Got any ideas? I have a few but I don't know how balanced they'd be. We could give it some sixth level SLAs at twelfth? Make its natural weapons turn into adamantine? (for the destructive purposes) Give it's natural weapons flaming/flaming burst? I don't know, this is my first time trying this.

Also, it's kind of lacking flavor. If I didn't look it up, I wouldn't know that it was a planar dragon, or anything besides a sound/fire hybrid dragon.

Okay, I can deal with that.

[AustontheGreat1]

Okay, I can deal with that.

I can deal with that as in "I can live with the fact," or "Ok, I can fix it"?

Because to be honest, I'm really excited with the idea of the Pyroclastic Dragon class but as it is it just seems really flavorless. You should try to do something like Hyudra did, giving the dragons similar but unique abilities and flavor.

but then again, who am I to say anything?

[Hyudra]

Got any ideas? I have a few but I don't know how balanced they'd be. We could give it some sixth level SLAs at twelfth? Make its natural weapons turn into adamantine? (for the destructive purposes) Give it's natural weapons flaming/flaming burst? I don't know, this is my first time trying this.

Keep a close eye on the red dragon. You don't want Pyroclastic to be strictly better, and you don't want the Pyroclastic to be more 'fiery' than the fire elemental dragon.

The way to go, IMHO, is to emphasize those aspects that set it apart from the fire dragon.

• Have it grow just a little slower (like, one or two levels late), but let it eventually gain immunity to fire. (For immunity to sound, see below). This makes it less brawny than the Red, which is the king of evil dragons, but gives it something in return. It really should have immunity to fire, since this is a dragon that habitually sits in magma.
• A flavor boosting idea I had, for late-mid to high level:
  
  Hear no Evil - Having spent hundreds of years in Gehenna, hearing the constantly exploding volcanoes the souls screaming and moaning in despair, the Pyroclastic Dragon is practiced in ignoring what it does not wish to hear, and may treat itself as being under the effects of a silence spell when such would be beneficial to it. This is an extraordinary effect and is not suppressed by an anti-magic field.
• In fact, given the themes of apathy and despair in Gehenna, you could consider adding, as a lower-to-mid level ability:
  
  See No Evil - The Pyroclastic Dragon is used to dwelling amid exploding geysers of magma, and the middling effects of spells such as Pyrotechnics and Glitterdust can simply be shrugged off. The Pyroclastic Dragon is immune to the Blind status effect. It is still affected normally by lighting conditions and darkness.
• The Pyroclastic Dragon could get improved sunder as a feat, at some point. This is more a flavor-based entry, but encourages playing as a Pyroclastic Dragon should. If you wanted to expand on this, you could have an ability where a dragon's natural weapons emulate a shatter effect on impact with inorganic matter, or build on the Gehenna-ish stylings by having opponents suffer a side effect if one of their belongings is shattered (save or be dazzled, or something).

Because to be honest, I'm really excited with the idea of the Pyroclastic Dragon class but as it is it just seems really flavorless. You should try to do something like Hyudra did, giving the dragons similar but unique abilities and flavor.

Well, the primary reason I went that route was because Giants are very vanilla, as monsters go. Simply put, they don't have features.

Dragons have lots of features, but when you break it down, they tend to all look very similar classwise. When you have two dragons with similarities (Fire dragon and Fire/sound dragon), it makes it all the more important to make the dragon more distinct. Either way, I don't think the Giant is something that should be emulated here.

[Tanuki Tales]

I apologize in advance if it was said somewhere on the first post that requests are to be PMed instead of posted in here (didn't see anything saying one way or the other).

I'd like to request that the Uvuudaum from the Epic Level Handbook be added to the waiting list. (Though I'm not necessarily requesting an Epic Progression.)

[flabort]

No, I don't think requests do need to be PMed... I haven't didn't, at the very least.

speaking o which... no. Bad flabort. they seem over whelmed currently. don't. A war troll would just be too much. so don't even.... whoops.

[Hyudra]

No need to PM requests, especially since the OP is on hiatus.

Anyhoo, I don't have the epic level handbook, so can't help you there. Someone else might be able to help you there.

[Volthawk]

No need to PM requests, especially since the OP is on hiatus.

Anyhoo, I don't have the epic level handbook, so can't help you there. Someone else might be able to help you there.

Well, it is on the SRD.

I may be able to do this one.

[Hyudra]

Well, it is on the SRD.

I may be able to do this one.

Right, but just having the stats isn't always enough. You want the flavor to fit, so having the full description and whatnot is important.

[Volthawk]

Right, but just having the stats isn't always enough. You want the flavor to fit, so having the full description and whatnot is important.

True. I have the ELH, so like I said, I might be able to do it. Just quite a lot of exams and stuff right now.

EDIT: And it's from the Far Realms!

[Tanuki Tales]

I can post or send the full fluff description if you need it.

[Draken]

The fluff is that the thing is an evil weird thing that drives you insane.

Not much else really.

[Starbuck_II]

Keep a close eye on the red dragon. You don't want Pyroclastic to be strictly better, and you don't want the Pyroclastic to be more 'fiery' than the fire elemental dragon.

The way to go, IMHO, is to emphasize those aspects that set it apart from the fire dragon.
[list][*]Have it grow just a little slower (like, one or two levels late), but let it eventually gain immunity to fire. (For immunity to sound, see below). This makes it less brawny than the Red, which is the king of evil dragons, but gives it something in return. It really should have immunity to fire, since this is a dragon that habitually sits in magma.

You could just make it immune to non-magical fire and have fire resist for magical (instead of total Fire immunity).
It makes it unique than.

[Mystic Muse]

I can deal with that as in "I can live with the fact," or "Ok, I can fix it"?

Because to be honest, I'm really excited with the idea of the Pyroclastic Dragon class but as it is it just seems really flavorless. You should try to do something like Hyudra did, giving the dragons similar but unique abilities and flavor.

but then again, who am I to say anything?

As in "okay, I can fix it."

You are somebody who wants to play the class and therefore your opinion matters.

The only problem is, now I only have hear no evil to put at 13th level otherwise it's a dead level. I could put improved sunder there too but it seems a little late.

EDIT: I put hear no evil and Gehenna sunder (What I'm calling the ability for now) at 13th level. I have nothing else to put in the slot so I figured this would be best.

[Tanuki Tales]

As another request, the Grimalkin from MMII would be nice for the people who want to play a versatile shapeshifter that's not naturally an ooze or a Druid.

Edit: As a suggestion for that adding in Magical Beasts into its repertoire would be nice since most animals and vermin (outside Devastation Vermin) aren't that great.

[Masaioh]

I'd like to request any and all MM1 True Dragons that haven't been requested yet.

Great work on everything so far!

[Mystic Muse]

Hmm. One thing I thought might be interesting is giving the Pyroclastic dragon DR/good equal to half its HD rather than, or maybe in addition to, DR magic. It makes more sense for the dragon being from Gehenna and all and would help differentiate it from the other dragons if it really needs it at this point.

Of course, Dragons are supposed to be magic incarnate so maybe replacing DR/magic isn't a great idea. Plus, DR/good kind of forces it into the evil role thematically and I hate being forced into a specific role.

[Hyudra]

Except as far as a PC is concerned, DR/Good is infinitely superior. The vast majority of the enemies one faces are evil, and even as a bad guy in an evil group, chances are 50% of your enemies are going to be evil too.

I advise sticking with Oslecamo's suggestion of avoiding adding too much in the way of efficient DR.

[Hyudra]

Cloud Giant

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HD:d8
{TABLE]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Feature
1| +0 | +2| +0| +0| Cloud Giant body, Powerful Build, Str+1, Con+1
2| +1| +3| +0| +0| Seize, Stash, Str+1, Con+1
3| +2| +3| +1| +1| Fee Fi Fo Fum, Str+1, Con+1
4| +3| +4| +1| +1| Growth, Throw Stone, Catch, Str+1, Con+1
5| +3| +4| +1| +1| Trample, Haughty, Str+1, Con+1
6| +4| +5| +2| +2| Leap, Cloud Palace, Str+1, Con+1
[/TABLE]
Skills: 6+int modifier per level, quadruple at first level. Class skills are Climb, Craft (Any one), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Perform and Spot.

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and his own natural weapons, plus light and medium armor.

Features:
Cloud Giant body: The Cloud Giant loses all other racial bonuses, and gains giant traits (mainly low light vision), a base speed of 30 feet, two natural slam attacks doing 1d4+Str each and a +1 racial bonus on thrown rocks. Lastly, he gains natural armor equal to his Con bonus.

Ability score increase: a Cloud Giant gains +1 Str and +1 Con for each level in this class. By sixth level, a Cloud Giant has +6 Str and +6 Con.

Powerful Build: At first level, a Cloud Giant gains Powerful Build. The physical stature of Giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger. Whenever the Giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the Giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A Giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A Giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Seize: At second level, the Cloud Giant may pick up opponents at least one size smaller than them. The giant must initiate a grapple as normal. If successful, the Cloud Giant may hoist their opponent from the ground, pulling them into the giant's square. Seized opponents suffer the normal consequences for grappling (including a -4 penalty to attack the giant and inability to move without a grapple check), while the Cloud Giant does not; The Cloud Giant threatens all appropriate squares, may move at half speed without making a grapple check, can attack the target or any foes in reach with a one handed weapon (or slam attack) without penalty, and is not treated as grappling by the target (and thus cannot be pinned). In essence, the Giant holds the opponent by one hand while going about his business.

Stash: At second level, the Cloud Giant may elect to stuff a grappled opponent at least one size category smaller than it into an appropriate container, such as a backpack or a large canvas sack. The object need not be on the Giant's person, and a barrel, crate or bottle in reach also serves the ability's purposes, provided it is large enough to house the creature. This is similar to Swallow Whole, and is activated with another grapple check as a standard action. If successful, the creature continues to be treated as grappled while the Giant is not. To make a hole large enough to escape through, the creature must deliver at least 20 points of damage to the container for every size category they have. Attacks suffer a -4 penalty if the container is being jostled or moved, such as with containers held by the giant or if otherwise set in motion, as with a barrel rolled downhill or a bag slung over the edge of a precipice.

There are two possibilities for the Giant's containers that introduce additional effects. First, a container with a great deal inside it (such as a giant's bag with boulders, bedroll, rope, chain and food inside it) is dangerous to be in, and delivers damage to the victim or victims inside whenever it is jostled (such as when the giant engages in vigorous activity like fighting or running, falls, or when the container is moved). Damage dealt is 1d4 + the giant's str bonus if the container is in the giant's possession. The giant can deliver double the damage by intentionally shaking and pummeling the container as a full round action. Dice size increases by one step (ie. from 1d4 to 1d6) every time the giant increases in size.

Alternately, a Giant may stuff the target in an airtight container and seal it (such as corking a bottle) with a move action. After 5 rounds (DM's discretion with varying containers & creature sizes), opponents begin suffocating.

Fee Fi Fo Fum: At third level, the Cloud Giant gains Scent, as per the monster ability, with a typical range of 30'. Further, the Cloud Giant treats the smell of blood as an overpowering odor (triple scent range to 90') and can pinpoint the location of any injured foe with a swift action rather than a move action. Injured opponents are those at less than maximum hitpoints; This may be stifled with other, overpowering smells, or a DC 15 heal check performed beforehand to bind wounds.

At 8HD, the Cloud Giant is also considered to have blindsight for the purposes of combating injured opponents only.

Forecast: At third level, the Cloud Giant becomes attuned to the elemental air. The Cloud Giant may cast Levitate and Obscuring Mist as SLAs 1/day per HD, and may cast Fog Cloud as an SLA 1/day per 3HD.

A Cloud Giant who multiclasses into an arcane caster class can count Cloud Giant levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL/ML and for the purposes of learning new spells/powers and getting new spell slots/power points. However, the giant does not retroactively gain spell slots or new spells for caster levels it did not take, nor does it add Cloud Giant levels to its character level for the purpose of class features, such as familiars. Cloud Giants cast non-SLA spells with the air subtype at +2 caster level.

Growth: At fourth level, the Cloud Giant finishes growing to large size but loses Powerful Build. His AC, bonus to hit, slam damage, grapple and skills change accordingly, but doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties. The giant's base movement speed increases by 10' (This movement boost occurs again at 12HD and 20HD, as the giant increases in size again).

The Giant continues to grow throughout his life:
At 8HD, the Cloud Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Huge size.
At 12HD, the Cloud Giant grows to Huge size and loses Powerful Build.
At 16HD, the Cloud Giant reacquires Powerful Build, granting partial benefits of Gargantuan size.
At 20HD, the Cloud Giant grows to Gargantuan size and loses Powerful Build.

Throw Stone: At fourth level, the Cloud Giant may begin throwing boulders or other large objects. A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to 700 feet. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects). A Gargantuan giant can hurl rocks of 90 to 120 pounds (large objects). Inanimate objects of similar size and heft may be substituted, but you lose the racial bonus to attack rolls and have half the range.

Catch: At fourth level, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

Trample: At fifth level, as a full-round action, The Giant can move up to twice his speed and literally run over any opponents at least one size category smaller than itself. The Giant merely has to move over the opponents in its path; any creature whose space is completely covered by the Giant’s space is subject to the trample attack. If a target’s space is larger than 5 feet, it is only considered trampled if the Giant moves over all the squares it occupies.

A trample attack deals bludgeoning damage (the Giant’s slam damage + 1½ times his Str modifier).

Trampled opponents can attempt attacks of opportunity, but these take a -4 penalty. If they do not make attacks of opportunity, trampled opponents can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage.

The save DC against the Giant’s trample attack is 10 + ½ Giant's HD + Giant’s Str modifier. The Giant can only deal trampling damage to each target once per round, no matter how many times its movement takes it over a target creature.

Haughty: At fifth level, the Cloud Giant is used to looking down on others. He or she may stare down a caster, making an intimidate check in place of a will save, where mind affecting effects are concerned.

Leap: At sixth level, the Cloud Giant may leap across the battlefield. Treat this as a charge action, but the giant must jump at least 10' as part of the charge, ending the charge as part of the leap. Upon landing, the giant sends up dust and vibrations that force all adjacent foes to make reflex saves (DC is 10 + ½ Giant's HD + Str) or stumble 5' back and be shaken until the end of their next turn. The giant (and any nearby companions) may deliver attacks of opportunity as a result of the stumbling opponents, in addition to delivering the charge attack.

Cloud Palace: At sixth level, the Cloud Giant is sufficiently attuned to the elemental air to begin preparing his or her cloud palace. A cloud giant may, 1/day, turn a body of fog, mist or cloud (up to 10'x10' per HD) into Cloudstone. Cloudstone retains its cloudy and airborne nature, but is not dispersed with wind or flame. Cloudstone is sturdy enough to hold structures and will remain aloft without difficulty. Creatures smaller than large size who fall prone on Cloudstone must make a reflex save (DC 15, +2 for every size category smaller than medium) or fall through, but it is otherwise treated like solid ground.

Further, all costs for building structures on Cloudstone are halved, as the material is naturally helpful and provides a solid foundation. Cloudstone that is not bolstered by a Cloud Giant at least once every six months begins to dissolve, with structures residing on it suffering damage as though from an earthquake (and another earthquake every 1d6 months) until the Cloudstone is attended to or all structures are leveled.

Comments:

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Still a little rough around the edges, but it's playable. I want a better picture for it, but there's not a lot of good pictures of cloud giants.

So he's not so combat focused as the other giants and in exchange, gets more skill points, some SLAs and some utility. I'll probably go back to this class at some point to tweak it or apply an inspiration I suddenly get. (I'm debating one idea - anyone know if there's a lesser version of Heroes' Feast?)

But basically, he lets you build castles in the sky, he's got some thematic abilities that throw back to Jack and the Beanstalk, he's got a strong enough nose that he can operate pretty effectively when in the midst of his own obscuring mist, and when battling those blasted gnomes who trouble giants so much, you can nab the the little bastards, stuff them into a barrel and then throw them 350 feet away (ideally into water or off a cliff/cloud) with boulder toss.

[Oslecamo]

Hyudra:Altough you're doing a great job with the giants, I now notice you've beeing breaking one of the basic rules. The total level of the class must be the same as the CR. Now I understand that you just run out of inspiration and can't make more than 6 levels for the giants, but even then the rule must be followed, and if you don't then I'll add more levels myself when I get back on duty. This also applies to the frost giant wich should be 9 levels long and ended up with 7.

Now back to studying, I shouldn't really be here but the exam today went particularly well so I allow myself some freedom. Move along people, nothing else to see here, duh duh duh...

[Hyudra]

Hyudra:Altough you're doing a great job with the giants, I now notice you've beeing breaking one of the basic rules. The total level of the class must be the same as the CR. Now I understand that you just run out of inspiration and can't make more than 6 levels for the giants, but even then the rule must be followed, and if you don't then I'll add more levels myself when I get back on duty. This also applies to the frost giant wich should be 9 levels long and ended up with 7.

Now back to studying, I shouldn't really be here but the exam today went particularly well so I allow myself some freedom. Move along people, nothing else to see here, duh duh duh...

Ah, wasn't aware of that rule. I'll amend the giants and mephits, then. Thanks, and grats on the exam.

Hrmmm. Some thinking to do.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, how does the Pyroclastic dragon look now? I'm satisfied with what the class has. Although we might need to go through it with pruning shears to make sure it's balanced with the other dragon classes.

[Tanuki Tales]

I was reading through the compiled lists of completed classes for this thread and I noticed that the photo used for the Erinyes class is in fact the photo for the Pleasure Devil from Fiendish Codex II.

Edit: Also, the photo used for the Red Slaad is in fact the Neraphim from the Planar Handbook.

[Hyudra]

Added sixth & seventh level to the Hill Giant. He now gets Crash Through, which lets him bash his way through walls and make running bull rushes that stomp over people in his way, and 'Thrash', which encourages him to use height advantage, as a hill-dweller should.

Added seventh and eighth levels to the Stone Giant. He now gets Stony Grip, letting him stop worrying about freedom of movement & escape artist checks and giving him more options with Fling. He gets Indomitable, so he can't be easily flanked, enhancing his trend of 'I ignore stuff'. He also gets Stonecanny, which makes it viable to use that racial bonus to hide in stony terrain.

I'll do Frosty, Orangebeard and Blue at a later point. Brain's tired.

Okay, how does the Pyroclastic dragon look now? I'm satisfied with what the class has. Although we might need to go through it with pruning shears to make sure it's balanced with the other dragon classes.

I have latent concerns the existing dragons aren't balanced, which makes that tough. Full BAB coupled with lots of natural attacks, caster abilities, numerous stat increases and decent options in combat are kinda problematic.

Edit: Added a 'standard' 3-level mephit class, as they're CR3, so that's done. Left the old mephit class there as an 'alternate' option. Still postponing Frosty, Orangebeard and Blue for the time being.

[Jallorn]

I would like to request Unbodied from XPH, but I won't, because... er... wait...

[flabort]

wouldn't "red beard" be a more apropriate idiom?