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    Default How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Once I heard that gestalt was actualy one of the more balanced ways of playing D&D, as long as one side of the progression is a caster and the other is a noncaster.

    Thinking about it more carefuly, it may be true. Fantasy heros nowadays seem to be all gishes with magic/special powers to back up their martial/rogue skills, or the other way around. Gestalt is the easiest way to acomplish this.

    Also, if everybody is paying a fullcaster, everybody is extra versatile. And then the noncaster side allows you to further flesh up your character.

    Even if you plan to play martial dude, you can always pick up cleric/psion and focus on self buffs, and refluff them as your uber martial skillz.

    Gestalt also makes playing monsters much easier, with RHD and LA on one side and a full class on the other.

    Toughts? Good idea? Madness?

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    I agree, if you scale the gestalt by tiers, (tier 1+6, 2+5 or below, 3+4 or below).

    Unrestricted gestalt is very unbalanced to anyone who isn't playing a Tier 1+Factotum.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    I agree, if you scale the gestalt by tiers, (tier 1+6, 2+5 or below, 3+4 or below).

    Unrestricted gestalt is very unbalanced to anyone who isn't playing a Tier 1+Factotum.
    Good point, but still, calling the factotum a noncaster is a bit of a stretch. He gets 7th level spells! And can change them everyday.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-20 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Well, wizard + warblade is pretty horrible also, as is factotum + warblade. I guess if you call tome of battle and factotum casters it works ok.

    Really it isn't about casters/noncasters, it is about relative abilities of classes. Tier 1+Adept or Healer isn't very scary.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Well, wizard + warblade is pretty horrible also, as is factotum + warblade. I guess if you call tome of battle and factotum casters it works ok.
    But even if I don't call them so, there'll be a much smaller gap between a wizard/warblade and a fighter/healer than between a wizard and a fighter.

    This is, a fighter riding an unicorn with freedom of movement/deathward/protection from evil and wich can instantly patch up his companions shouldn't be trifled with.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    If I understand you, that forces everyone to be casters.

    And since casters are always so balanced...

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    If everyone is overpowered: logic dictates no one is.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    If everyone is overpowered: logic dictates no one is.
    That would be true if "Overpowered" is a single condition. In fact it is a sliding scale, in which things are only "Overpowered" compared with other things. A warblade//factotum or Druid//swordsage is overpowered compared with a fighter//healer, a fighter//adept, or a fighter//warmage. Mostly due to the ease with which he breaks the action economy, but also for general utility. Gestalt optimization is, if anything, trickier than single class optimization, because you are looking for classes that complement each others strengths and cover each others weaknesses, do not present MAD problems, and let you do multiple actions per round.

    Edit: Do the monster classes go on the caster or non-caster side? There are some really good monster classes, and some really bad ones, and throwing them into the mix doesn't make it any more balanced.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 03:21 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    That would be true if "Overpowered" is a single condition. In fact it is a sliding scale, in which things are only "Overpowered" compared with other things. A warblade//factotum or Druid//swordsage is overpowered compared with a fighter//healer, a fighter//adept, or a fighter//warmage. Mostly due to the ease with which he breaks the action economy.
    Healer gets an unicorn companion. And gate. It's harder to get better than that. Dunno why it's tier 5-6 really.

    Warmage looks weak at first glance, but get him into rainbow servant prc to brutaly expand his spell list, and he quickly rises to sorceror level, if not cleric.

    Fighter is then used to get extra actions trough Aoo madness. You think wrong that only wizards and clerics and warblades can get extra actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Gestalt optimization is, if anything, trickier than single class optimization, because you are looking for classes that complement each others strengths and cover each others weaknesses, do not present MAD problems, and let you do multiple actions per round.
    Actualy, it's much easier than it sounds. Paladin is based in Cha. Sorceror is based in Cha. Combine. Profit.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Healer gets an unicorn companion. And gate. It's harder to get better than that. Dunno why it's tier 5-6 really.
    Because it gets it at like level 17. Same reason people dump on the truenamer. Most play happens from 1-16.

    A fighter//healer is not playing the same game as a crusader//cleric. The cleric is better than the healer at everything, including healing, and crusader adds more to the class than fighter does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Warmage looks weak at first glance, but get him into rainbow servant prc to brutaly expand his spell list, and he quickly rises to sorceror level, if not cleric.
    Yeah, but the guy who is playing a rainbow warsnake didn't need gestalt to be effective. The guy who thinks warmage is a blasting class is not comparable to his party members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Fighter is then used to get extra actions trough Aoo madness. You think wrong that only wizards and clerics and warblades can get extra actions.
    Aoo madness isn't limited to fighters. It is much weaker as an overall strategy than (for example) being able to cast a spell, then become invisible as a swift, then escape. It is vastly weaker than a Factotum/Warblade who can get half a dozen standard actions in a round, use all of his maneuvers on an opponent, then spend a full round action getting them all back (or different ones) in the same round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Actualy, it's much easier than it sounds. Paladin is based in Cha. Sorceror is based in Cha. Combine. Profit.
    Isn't Paladin a caster? Why don't you define caster for the purpose of this discussion and we can give you better input on how broken it is. How about Ranger? MoMF? Tier 1//Ranger 5 MoMF10 is kinda sick too.

    Sorcadin is easy. Sorcadin is a gish build in non-gestalt. Gishes are tricky anyway, since you have to balance issues like armor use. Yes, you and I can get around ACF no problem, but it magnifies the differences between people who are good with rules and people who don't optimize.

    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE gestalt. A lot. But basic gestalt isn't a balance fix. Caster/Non-caster gestalt isn't a balance fix. Allowing high tiers to gestalt with low tiers is a better balance fix, provided that you have players on the same optimization level and a DM who knows what traps to watch for.

    And are monsters casters? How many spell likes before they become a caster?
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 04:04 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Warmage looks weak at first glance, but get him into rainbow servant prc to brutaly expand his spell list, and he quickly rises to sorceror level, if not cleric.
    And the most powerful Monk is Monk 1(or 2)/Druid 19 (or 18). PrCing to make a class strong does not mean the class is good. It means the PrC is, for the most part.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE gestalt. A lot. But basic gestalt isn't a balance fix. Caster/Non-caster gestalt isn't a balance fix. Allowing high tiers to gestalt with low tiers is a better balance fix, provided that you have players on the same optimization level and a DM who knows what traps to watch for.
    Correction, if all players are on the same optimization level and the DM is keeping them in check, then there's no need for a fix of any kind.

    Using the tier system would work if the tier system itself worked. Since it doesn't, as it's based on completely arbitary variables, demands the players to have a deep grasp of the rules and then contradicts itself over it, then it doesn't solve anything really.

    (note:if you try to turn this into a tier discussion, then I will simply ignore that part. I've heard plenty of arguments and none of them persuaded me. This is a discussion about how balanced is gestalt with casters/noncaster progression.)
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-20 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Correction, if all players are on the same optimization level and the DM is keeping them in check, then there's no need for a fix of any kind.
    If those things aren't true, adding gestalt is just as likely to make balance worse as better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Using the tier system would work if the tier system itself worked. Since it doesn't, as it's based on completely arbitary variables, demands the players to have a deep grasp of the rules and then contradicts itself over it, then it doesn't solve anything really.
    Fair enough. Then a version of the tier system modified to reflect the actual play of your game/campaign. Or just a juryrigged strong class/weak class chart made up for this limited purpose. It doesn't matter whose chart you use, as long as it is accurate to your game.

    As far as it goes, I agree that the tier chart isn't great for gestalt. Passive classes like Monk and to some extent fighter are much stronger in gestalt than they are alone. But there are still stronger and weaker classes, and stronger and weaker combinations of classes.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 04:50 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    If those things aren't true, adding gestalt is just as likely to make balance worse as better.
    Ok, now that's more like my main point. I believe that if you have people with diferent optimization abilities, gestalt with caster/noncaster will actualy diminish the gap. Not completely eliminate it (that's probably impossible), but make it smaller.

    After all, one of the main problems people have with noncasters is that they end up being one trick ponies. Well, if you're half cleric/beguiler/druid/wizard/bard, you've got a big chunk of versatility. And yes, versatility is power, not just extra actions. Having the right answer to the right problem is many times more effective than throwing several wrong answers.

    Sure, a wizard/warblade is a great combo, but a wizard alone is a great combo by itself, so making him a warblade as well can't really make things much worse.

    On the other hand, that newbie's fighter can shoot fly or patch allies or efectively attack at range, his power is greatly increased, and that helps lessen the gap.

    Also, I consider "caster" in this situation anyone who can get 6th level spells before level 20. So paladin and ranger would be noncasters.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-20 at 04:56 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    After all, one of the main problems people have with noncasters is that they end up being one trick ponies. Well, if you're half cleric/beguiler/druid/wizard/bard, you've got a big chunk of versatility. And yes, versatility is power, not just extra actions. Having the right answer to the right problem is many times more effective than throwing several wrong answers.
    But a MoMF or Duskblade or Warblade give a lot more to a wizard in terms of both versatility and power than, say, Knight. They are less MAD. They are better in or out of combat. They are simply likely to be better at almost everything. ESPECIALLY if the difference in optimization levels carries over to things like spell choices.

    Based on your definition of caster and stated inclusion of monster classes, it becomes even worse. You get wierd brokenness like Sorcerer//Pixie/Paladin, for a full caster with great saves and great stats who flies and is invisible all day long, and can even heal himself. Fighter//bard /= Sorcerer//Pixie/rogue.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Swift Hunter//Swiftblade

    At level 15 you get to move 20 ft, fire six (or double with splitting) Greater Manyshot Skirmish arrows at a time thanks to haste and perpetual options. Skirmish is complemented with a swiftblade ability that stacks with skirmish. Now get improved skirmish and arcane strike. Sacrifice a highest level spell slot (6th).

    You now get something like a +15+(Enhancement)+6+(Dex)-(manyshot)+(haste)+(favored enemy) to hit with each arrow.

    Each arrow now does 1d8+(Strength)+(Enhancement)+6d6(Improved Skirmish)+2d6(Swiftblade ability)+6d4(arcane strike)+(favored enemy).

    You are going to have Splitting, which will average to 564 damage (Str and Enhancement and FE not counted). Even if the opponent has DR, you still do 500+damage
    Last edited by Roc Ness; 2010-02-20 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roc Ness View Post
    Swift Hunter//Swiftblade

    At level 15 you get to move 20 ft, fire six (or double with splitting) Greater Manyshot Skirmish arrows at a time thanks to haste and perpetual options. Skirmish is complemented with a swiftblade ability that stacks with skirmish. Now get improved skirmish and arcane strike. Sacrifice a highest level spell slot (6th).

    You now get something like a +15+(Enhancement)+6+(Dex)-(manyshot)+(haste)+(favored enemy) to hit with each arrow.

    Each arrow now does 1d8+(Strength)+(Enhancement)+6d6(Improved Skirmish)+2d6(Swiftblade ability)+6d4(arcane strike)+(favored enemy).

    You are going to have Splitting, which will average to 564 damage (Str and Enhancement and FE not counted). Even if the opponent has DR, you still do 500+damage
    That's hardly impressive considering you gotta be within 30' of the target, have rather poor attack bonus, and have excess damage (you can't Arcane Strike on a ranged attack). Oh, and you're with 6th level spells on level 15. A non-Gestalt Frenzied Berserker can outdamage you.

    The idea itself isn't bad, but meh; you need Wizard-levels on the other side to compensate for lost CLs, you'll eventually want Abjurant Champion-levels in there to get a bow-usable Arcane Strike (though much worse as it costs an action), and you probably Heroics/Feat Press the Advantage-stance and get +45 Tumble. That enables you to eventually take 20' step each turn giving you Full Attack (Rapid Shot & al.) + Greater Manyshot for great justice. And Mystic Ranger on the other side.


    This still won't be a damage king without some heavy buff magic, but it'll get you full casting, decent strategic options and yeah, Maximized Quickened Extraordinary Time Stops at level 9 slots. Oh, and level 5 Mystic Ranger-casting to boot. Only problem is, Skirmish is indeed heavily limited on range; 60' is best you can do and there's no "Sniper's Shot" printed for Skirmish (though I suppose a DM could allow Sniper's Shot itself to count for both).
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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    But a MoMF or Duskblade or Warblade give a lot more to a wizard in terms of both versatility and power than, say, Knight. They are less MAD. They are better in or out of combat. They are simply likely to be better at almost everything. ESPECIALLY if the difference in optimization levels carries over to things like spell choices.
    But the wizard could already become a melee machine with spells alone, and do pretty much anything. Warblade/duskblade just makes it slightly easier. MoMF? Shapechance/polymorph had already broken the game before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Based on your definition of caster and stated inclusion of monster classes, it becomes even worse. You get wierd brokenness like Sorcerer//Pixie/Paladin, for a full caster with great saves and great stats who flies and is invisible all day long, and can even heal himself.
    But the sorceror already could fly and be invisible and buff himself most of the day if he wanted to! He doesn't even need cheese to pull it off, I've seen it happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Fighter//bard /= Sorcerer//Pixie/rogue.
    But I say it's better than comparing a fighter to a sorceror. At least now the sorceror can't just fly and laugh at the fighter when there's a wall on the way.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-20 at 06:36 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    But the sorceror already could fly and be invisible and buff himself most of the day if he wanted to! He doesn't even need cheese to pull it off, I've seen it happen.
    At ECL 4? Before most enemies can counter it? Without even taking up 2 of his spells known? I highly doubt it. Superior invis is a level 4 spell. Persisting it takes high level and a lot of work. Maybe with some kind of loophole combined with Kobold cheese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    But I say it's better than comparing a fighter to a sorceror.
    Say what you like Oslecamo. In some games it may even be true, depending on how lucky the non-optimizers are with their gestalt picks. It is clearly not balanced. I don't see any way to prove or disprove A>B by more or less than C>D. We have pointed out the flaws with it. The fact that it isn't balanced doesn't mean it might not be fun, so go for it.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-20 at 06:49 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    At ECL 4? Before most enemies can counter it? Without even taking up 2 of his spells known? I highly doubt it. Superior invis is a level 4 spell. Persisting it takes high level and a lot of work. Maybe with some kind of loophole combined with Kobold cheese.
    Actualy, pixie demands ECL 5(1HD+LA4), and then, well, wizards get fly. Inv is actualy easier to counter between see invisibility, scent, good listen checks, blindsense, blindsight, etc, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Say what you like Oslecamo. In some games it may even be true, depending on how lucky the non-optimizers are with their gestalt picks. It is clearly not balanced. I don't see any way to prove or disprove A>B by more or less than C>D. We have pointed out the flaws with it. The fact that it isn't balanced doesn't mean it might not be fun, so go for it.
    ...I never said it was perfectly balanced. You can already pull out pretty crazy stuff whitout gestalt if you want to, so, by making newbies pick up a caster togheter with their CW samurai, they're much less likely to cripple themselves.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    Actualy, pixie demands ECL 5(1HD+LA4), and then, well, wizards get fly. Inv is actualy easier to counter between see invisibility, scent, good listen checks, blindsense, blindsight, etc, etc.
    In other words, you can't do it.

    A pixie doesn't have to take RHD. in gestalt, at ecl 4, he alreasy has 4 character levels.

    Fly by spell /= permanent winged flight. Unless every single enemy that you fight has ways to kill flying invisible attackers, it is broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    ...I never said it was perfectly balanced. You can already pull out pretty crazy stuff whitout gestalt if you want to, so, by making newbies pick up a caster togheter with their CW samurai, they're much less likely to cripple themselves.
    Maybe, or maybe they won't know which spells to take and how to deal with armor, and they will wind up farther behind the superior invis sneak attack sorcerer. A lot of players who play mostly non casters do it because they don't play casters well....

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Say what you like Oslecamo. In some games it may even be true, depending on how lucky the non-optimizers are with their gestalt picks. It is clearly not balanced. I don't see any way to prove or disprove A>B by more or less than C>D. We have pointed out the flaws with it. The fact that it isn't balanced doesn't mean it might not be fun, so go for it.
    Except the question being asked is:

    A - B ?= C - D

    The statements "A>B" and "C>D" are both given by the OP(I'm assuming "A = optimized gestalt", "B = non-optimized gestalt", "C = Optimized non-gestalt(Caster, normally)" and "D = non-optimized non-gestalt")

    Given all that, I'd argue that "A ~= C", since adding gestalt doesn't make Pun-Pun anymore powerful. That reduces the original statement to:

    B ?= D

    And since the difference between B and D is the addition of gestalt, we know that B > D. So, strictly speaking:

    A - B <= C - D

    Or, the power-gap in gestalt is no worse, and quite probably better, than in non-gestalt play.

    QED

    'Course, that's assuming that blind logic can be applied to the situation, and that obscenely-broken is part of the consideration the poster wants. In actual play, you're dealing more with statistics than logic, and in statistics, given the starting point that each choice represents a variable increase in power, the more choices you allow, the greater the maximum degree of variance, and thus, the more ease in which you can find yourself with vastly disparate samples to deal with. You can hope that by adding choices, you force people towards the middle of the bell-curve, but as with every other *(&*) thing in statistics, there's no guarentee you'll succeed.
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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    A pixie doesn't have to take RHD. in gestalt, at ecl 4, he alreasy has 4 character levels.
    The pixie can replace the RHD, but it can't ditch it all togheter. So she still needs one level of something before taking the LA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Fly by spell /= permanent winged flight. Unless every single enemy that you fight has ways to kill flying invisible attackers, it is broken.
    If the enemies cannot deal with a flying/invisible enemy, then a pixie by itself is already broken, whitout needing the sorceror side! Just pick a bow and go to town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Maybe, or maybe they won't know which spells to take and how to deal with armor, and they will wind up farther behind the superior invis sneak attack sorcerer. A lot of players who play mostly non casters do it because they don't play casters well....
    And they'll have an hard time learning if they don't play a caster indeed. Experience is an excellent teacher, and so if one of their sides is a caster they're more likely to call for help and end up improving their optimization skills than if they had a noncaster with fixed abilities.

    Godskook:
    Ah, thank you very much for that excellent exposition! Indeed, this system isn't fail-proof, but the chances of something going horribly wrong are drasticaly reduced, as you would need to take two very weak classes and optimize them badly to cripple yourself.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2010-02-20 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Except the question being asked is:

    A - B ?= C - D

    The statements "A>B" and "C>D" are both given by the OP(I'm assuming "A = optimized gestalt", "B = non-optimized gestalt", "C = Optimized non-gestalt(Caster, normally)" and "D = non-optimized non-gestalt")

    Given all that, I'd argue that "A ~= C", since adding gestalt doesn't make Pun-Pun anymore powerful. That reduces the original statement to:
    False. Optimization =/ Pun Pun. An optimized gestalt is significantly stronger than an optimized non gestalt in most games. Your argument, based on this false premise, fails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    In other words, you can't do it.
    LA 0 fey + alter self + Assume Supernatural Ability says you can.

    [edit] And Precocious Apprentice says you can do it at level 1.
    Last edited by Lycanthromancer; 2010-02-20 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    LA 0 fey + alter self + Assume Supernatural Ability says you can.

    [edit] And Precocious Apprentice says you can do it at level 1.
    And how do you make it last all day?

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    And how do you make it last all day?
    A level of cleric and DMM.

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    False. Optimization =/ Pun Pun. An optimized gestalt is significantly stronger than an optimized non gestalt in most games. Your argument, based on this false premise, fails.
    Could you establish what your baseline of optimization is? Without any other one, I'm left with the baseline of RAW, which is dominated by something akin to Pun-Pun, save-game psions, the killer gnome, chain-gating wizards, or similar obscene builds that reach NI in some way or other. All of these builds have passed the point where adding gestalt to them would change their power level signifcantly enough to matter.

    Also, my argument does not hinge on that assumption, and doesn't 'fail' if my assumption(I admitted to the assumption in my post, btw) is wrong. It only fails if you can prove that optimized gestalt is significantly more powerful than optimized non-gestalt, using the baseline the OP sets for optimization(because it is his question we're discussing).

    OP, what's your baseline for 'maximum optimization'?
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    I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
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  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009

    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Gestalt is a good way to make low tier classes or concepts you want to play effective and getting a good non-game-breaking synergy, possibly by adding spellcasting to a melee build. If the disparity of optimizations withing the group is too great it will still result in unbalanced groups since the game is easy enough to break with a single class.

    Mandating noncaster/caster would eliminate the problems of a party with a monk//fighter and a wizard//psion or something but you could still end up with a barbarian//bard and a gamebreaking cheese feast just because one side can be a caster. As in normal games it's still important for the players to be on the same page when designing/optimizing characters, the examples I just gave are communication issues. A good optimizer should have no problems mildly optimizing an interesting combination that doesn't break the game. It could help the people without a good grasp of the mechanics not sucking but they usually have access to help anyway, if they're willing to accept it.

    The biggest balance problem it might help solve, provided there are no communication issues, is if it's a long running campaign where full-casters inevitably gain ever bigger advantages over even effective non-caster builds.
    Last edited by Ormur; 2010-02-21 at 01:11 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: How balanced is gestalt with noncaster/caster progression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthromancer View Post
    A level of cleric and DMM.
    DMM doesn't work on arcane spells. Only divine. Even if it did, you have picked a suboptimal race to be fay, lost a level of sorcerer to a dip, then spent 3-4 feats (extend spell (probably from a domain), persist spell, DMM persist, assume supernatural ability) for a weaker (dispellable) version of the same thing.

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