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    Default Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    So, I was flipping through the MIC, and I ran into Weapon Crystals. I was building a character for a friend of one of the players who was going to play one session. The character ended up being really awesome yet simple, but that's besides the point.

    What are peoples opinions on Weapon Crystals. I gave this character the Elemental Assault (lesser) crystal, and as far as I can tell this possesses significant advantages over the standard Damage weapon properties.


    So really, my question is this. Are Weapon Crystals a good idea? Should I ban them, or ban a few of them? Are they the way magic weapons should have been done from the start? Ect.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    I think they are fantastic idea. Better loot for PCs:
    no more "flaming short sword, but Jim's Fighter is focused on Longswords"

    They are limited by weapon bonus (Greater can only be placed on +3 weapon). Lesser +1, etc.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    I play a lot of rogues, and I personally love the Greater Truedeath Crystals. Every rogue should have a set!
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    So really, my question is this. Are Weapon Crystals a good idea?
    A good idea in terms of what?

    I've had characters buy a few. They're not bad in terms of player use.

    Should I ban them, or ban a few of them?
    Nah. They are so not ban worthy.

    Are they the way magic weapons should have been done from the start?
    They're certainly closer. Magic weapon creation at the current moment is exponentially expensive, and it also prevents you from really switching around what weapon you focus on and use.

    So it is inefficient in terms of gold, and narrows you into one path.

    Weapon crystals make it a more modular, less exponential system. You aren't stuck using a single weapon, and the prices aren't dependent on the rest of the weapon. Is it perfect? Hell no, but it is better than it was.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2010-02-20 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Vael View Post
    A good idea in terms of what?

    I've had characters buy a few. They're not bad in terms of player use.
    A good Idea from a DM's perspective, as in, should I include them in my campaign. Apparently the answer is Yes, which is a big load off my mind.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    This is what abilities like Flaming should have been all along. A bit restrictive, but flexible enough that they are worth having two or three.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    The thing to remember about Greater Truedeath Crystals is that they can only be inserted into a weapon with a +5 Enhancement Bonus. Not +5 equivalent, you need to shell out the dough for a +5 weapon. Which is nearly worthless when it is all duplicated with a single spell.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The thing to remember about Greater Truedeath Crystals is that they can only be inserted into a weapon with a +5 Enhancement Bonus. Not +5 equivalent, you need to shell out the dough for a +5 weapon. Which is nearly worthless when it is all duplicated with a single spell.
    I think you mean a +3 weapon. It's a Greater Augment Crystal.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    I think you mean a +3 weapon. It's a Greater Augment Crystal.
    Still wasting a hell of a lot of gold just to be able to equip it
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Considering that Greater True death as the example adds 1d6 Damage against Undead (A Weak +1/2 Effect), Ghost Touch (A +1 Effect) and the Ability to Crit/Sneak Attack any Undead (A +1 or +2 Effect) and that you can put it on any +3 or better weapon I would say that it is actually better to have if your campaign has Undead in any number.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuaqchi View Post
    Considering that Greater True death as the example adds 1d6 Damage against Undead (A Weak +1/2 Effect), Ghost Touch (A +1 Effect) and the Ability to Crit/Sneak Attack any Undead (A +1 or +2 Effect) and that you can put it on any +3 or better weapon I would say that it is actually better to have if your campaign has Undead in any number.
    Numbers do not support you.

    A base +3 weapon is 18,000gp

    A base +1 weapon is 2,000gp

    A +1 Undead Bane Ghost Touch weapon costs 18,000 by itself. That's without spending money on a crystal, but also does not grant the ability to sneak attack undead.

    However,

    A +1 Ghost Touch weapon only costs 8,000, and a Wand of Gravestrike only costs 750. If you don't give a darn about 1d6 damage, just skip the Undead Bane.

    Furthermore,

    Getting further bonuses on a +3 weapon costs more than a +1.

    You have a +3 weapon. That's not too special, considering a GMW can do the same, or better. Then you slap the crystal into it.

    So, let's say you want to put Keen on it. That's another +1.

    A +1 Ghost Touch dagger would cost 10k to go from a +2 equivalent to a +3.

    However, it costs 14k extra to go from a +3 to a +4 equivalent.

    If you don't need Ghost Touch, it gets even worse. It's only a 6k difference between a +1 and a +2.

    So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.
    And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Which would screw over magic items as well, no?

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.
    Fine. Opponent caster wants to waste an action Dispelling? That's ONE target he gets to dispel, instead of using encounter-winning actions.

    Honestly, I'd be tempted to TELL them you're buffed to the gills, just so they will waste their time dispelling our guys while we disassemble them.

    It's called win/win. You waste your actions trying to dispel out buffs. Even if you strip them, it's not like we can't just re-cast them after combat, and you just blew your chance to do anything meaningful in combat to disable a renewable resource. Sucker.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    As a player of rogues I really like the truedeath and demolition crystals as well as the armor crystal that adds to mind affecting spells. Without them I'd have +1 equipment with effects, but the crystals seem to make it worth getting the +3

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Actions are much more renewable than spell slots, in my experience. As are the HP that would be taken from you by enemies' actions.
    Last edited by Foryn Gilnith; 2010-02-21 at 08:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    Actions are much more renewable than spell slots, in my experience. As are the HP that would be taken from you by enemies' actions.
    A common mis-conception.

    Spells, used out of combat, that last hours/level, can be cast at any time, and as many as you have spell slots can be stacked up for maximum gain.

    However, during combat, the single most precious thing you have are actions. A single action can spell the difference between sucess and failure.

    Allow me to demonstrate.

    Greater Dispel Magic is a 6th level spell.

    So is Split Ray Enervation
    So is Heightened Slow
    Solid Fog is only 5th level
    Baleful Polymorph is only 5th level
    heck, Polymorph is only 4th
    Chain Lighting and Freezing Sphere are both 6th level spells, if you like blastomancy
    Circle of Death is also 6th level spell
    So is Disintegrate
    So is Flesh to Stone

    Guess which one hampers my effectiveness the least...

    single target? I'd much rather get hit by a Greater Dispel than, say, Disintegrate, Empowered Enervation (or split-ray, if you prefer), Baleful Polymorph (Save or Loose), Flesh to Stone (Save or Loose), and unless you have some form of Evasion, even making your save on the Blastomancy makes it around 12d6/2 damage, and also likely hits multiple targets.

    Heightened Slow will at least keep the beatsticks off of the Bad Guys effectively. Hitting a caster with a couple of Enervations means you loose access to your higher level shut-down spells.

    Any of these are more worthwhile tactics than using Greater dispel Magic. Most of these are one-round perma-screw a PC, and *FAR* more dangerous than GDM.

    So yea, please, choose to use the least effective tactic at your disposal rather than forcing a save against my weak save or loosing and probably loosing my character as well.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-02-21 at 08:47 PM.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by ken-do-nim View Post
    And every party I've been in that has relied on greater magic weapon (and magical vestment) has gotten nuked by greater dispel magic - repeatedly. The DM even equipped opponents with weapons that did dispel magic on each hit.
    Remember that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the weapon and armor, not on the character carrying them. You either need an area Dispel to cover them or to target them specifically- if you have an enemy targeting his dispels directly against the characters, it's going to miss the GMW/Magic Vestment effect completely (a good area Dispel, on the other hand, stands pretty good chances of turning off a few GMWs and Magic Vestments if you don't have any investment in dispel protection- they're liable to be the only actual spells running on those particular objects.) If they *are* targeting the weapon directly, well, I have to agree with Shneekey. There are far more dangerous things an enemy could be doing with a sixth-level spell slot.
    Last edited by tyckspoon; 2010-02-21 at 09:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Also, GMW enchants the WEAPON, so a targeted dispel magic against the player (to strip off things like Haste or RRotF or similar) would not affect weapons affected by GMW or armor affected by MV. So, unless its a Chained Dispel Magic you are facing, the odds of taking a targeted dispel magic to the sword is relatively low, and in this sitation, a duel wielder would kinda have an advantage as it would take 2 seperate spells (and thus 2 actions) to nulify his GMWs, simply to make the crystals fall off.

    The Calling Crystals are pretty sexy as well, even the least, as it gives Quickdraw with that weapon.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Numbers do not support you.

    A base +3 weapon is 18,000gp

    A base +1 weapon is 2,000gp
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    A +1 Undead Bane Ghost Touch weapon costs 18,000 by itself. That's without spending money on a crystal, but also does not grant the ability to sneak attack undead.

    However,

    A +1 Ghost Touch weapon only costs 8,000, and a Wand of Gravestrike only costs 750. If you don't give a darn about 1d6 damage, just skip the Undead Bane.

    Furthermore,

    Getting further bonuses on a +3 weapon costs more than a +1.

    You have a +3 weapon. That's not too special, considering a GMW can do the same, or better. Then you slap the crystal into it.

    So, let's say you want to put Keen on it. That's another +1.

    A +1 Ghost Touch dagger would cost 10k to go from a +2 equivalent to a +3.

    However, it costs 14k extra to go from a +3 to a +4 equivalent.

    If you don't need Ghost Touch, it gets even worse. It's only a 6k difference between a +1 and a +2.

    So, with access to Greater Magic Weapon (every party I've both been in and GM'd), the +3 equivalent is a waste of resources, even calculating in the worth of the crystal itself.
    Umm, instead, why not just compare a +3 weapon with a greater truedeath crystal, vs a +1 Ghost touch/ghost strike weapon? I'm not going to jump into the argument regarding the cost effectiveness of a wand of gravestrike.
    The wand requires a use each round unless it's been persisted. And requires an extra action. Either from the wielder, or a mage or UMD character in the party. Depending on equipment selection, you've got the crystal on your weapon or not. If not, it's an action to attach it. One that doesn't rely on a party member. If you can use the wand yourself, well then, action economy is the same.

    + 3 weapon= 18000gp. Greater truedeath 10000gp. Total is 28000. Is +3, with 1d6 bonus damage.

    +1 weapon, Ghost touch (+1), Ghost strike (+1) = 18000 gp. Costs 10000 less than the weapon+crystal, but has an effective enhancement of +2 less, and lacks the 1d6 bonus damage.

    In both cases, your weapon acts as a Ghost touch, ghost strike, which means it hits incorporeal/corporeal in a manner beneficial to you. Using the crystal is more expensive, but you can swap the crystal out for something else when you want.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    The Calling Return Crystals are pretty sexy as well, even the least, as it gives Quickdraw with that weapon.
    Yep, pretty much every high-level character should have a couple of backup weapons with Least Return Crystals attached to them (unless the character actually has Quick Draw for some reason).
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    I actually wrote up a potential fix for weapon/armor crystals. More versatility and cost effective.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by herrhauptmann View Post
    Umm, instead, why not just compare a +3 weapon with a greater truedeath crystal, vs a +1 Ghost touch/ghost strike weapon? I'm not going to jump into the argument regarding the cost effectiveness of a wand of gravestrike.
    The wand requires a use each round unless it's been persisted. And requires an extra action. Either from the wielder, or a mage or UMD character in the party. Depending on equipment selection, you've got the crystal on your weapon or not. If not, it's an action to attach it. One that doesn't rely on a party member. If you can use the wand yourself, well then, action economy is the same.

    + 3 weapon= 18000gp. Greater truedeath 10000gp. Total is 28000. Is +3, with 1d6 bonus damage.

    +1 weapon, Ghost touch (+1), Ghost strike (+1) = 18000 gp. Costs 10000 less than the weapon+crystal, but has an effective enhancement of +2 less, and lacks the 1d6 bonus damage.

    In both cases, your weapon acts as a Ghost touch, ghost strike, which means it hits incorporeal/corporeal in a manner beneficial to you. Using the crystal is more expensive, but you can swap the crystal out for something else when you want.
    How about... not.

    Gravestrike is a Swift action. Meaning you can pull it off and still get your full round of actions. With a Wand Sheath, you don't need an equipment slot.

    Who cares about +1d6 which is exceedingly situational?

    And Ghost Touch is very situational as well, completely worthless unless you are facing incorporeal creatures.

    So yea, again, for less than 3k, and a buff, I can have the same effect you got by spending 28k (18 on the +3 and 10k on the crystal).
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Aren't most incorporeal creatures undead? Most of the creatures you'd use it against would therefore be undead. If so, how is the +1d6 "exceedingly situational"?

    Not to mention that the extra +2 to-hit/damage bonus is also always useful.

    And you can swap crystals.

    I'd have to side with herrhauptmann on this.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Melayl View Post
    Aren't most incorporeal creatures undead? Most of the creatures you'd use it against would therefore be undead. If so, how is the +1d6 "exceedingly situational"?

    Not to mention that the extra +2 to-hit/damage bonus is also always useful.

    And you can swap crystals.

    I'd have to side with herrhauptmann on this.
    the +2 to-hit/damage is more than covered by Greater Magic Weapon.

    The 'situational' part is where undead are usually not that prevalent. And when they are, mostly they aren't incorporeal. There's only a few types of incorporeal undead, and they are generally handled a lot easier using methods other than using weapons.

    For those occasions in which you do run into Undead, a Wand of Gravestrike will let you sneak attack them. That should be more than sufficient damage output, without needing an extra 1d6, at the cost of over 25k gp. If I'm that desperate for damage, there are far more effective ways to increase damage.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-02-21 at 10:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Why can't you attach a greater crystal to a weapon that was GMWed?
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Remember that Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments are cast on the weapon and armor, not on the character carrying them. You either need an area Dispel to cover them or to target them specifically- if you have an enemy targeting his dispels directly against the characters, it's going to miss the GMW/Magic Vestment effect completely (a good area Dispel, on the other hand, stands pretty good chances of turning off a few GMWs and Magic Vestments if you don't have any investment in dispel protection- they're liable to be the only actual spells running on those particular objects.) If they *are* targeting the weapon directly, well, I have to agree with Shneekey. There are far more dangerous things an enemy could be doing with a sixth-level spell slot.
    Wow - sounds like we got that wrong. Could you provide me a reference in the books somewhere to back up this ruling? We assumed items in one's possession were included in a targeted dispel.

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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Targeted Dispel

    One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell.
    Magic Weapon
    Target: Weapon touched
    Seems clear that Magic Weapon can't be dispelled by targeting the creature wielding the weapon.. Unless it's a monk, I guess...
    A wise monk trains both mind and body, but a smart monk is actually a swordsage.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Feb 2009

    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by MiC preview
    A lesser augment crystal functions when affixed to an object with a magical enhancement bonus of +1 or higher (such as a +1 longsword). A greater augment crystal functions when bonded with an item with at least a +3 enhancement bonus. Only the item's actual bonus matters: a +3 dagger can house a greater augment crystal, but a +1 flaming keen rapier cannot.
    (found here)

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD entry for Greater Magic Weapon
    This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).
    So where's the problem? Cast Greater Magic Weapon, put in your Greater Truedeath Crystal. GMW grants the enhancement bonus you need to affix the crystal. Nowhere in the description of the crystals does it say that the item's actual bonus has to be permanent - and the actual bonus is the highest bonus it has at the moment.
    Last edited by Aharon; 2010-02-22 at 10:13 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ken-do-nim's Avatar

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    Mansfield, MA
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    Default Re: Weapon/armor augment Crystals

    Quote Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
    Seems clear that Magic Weapon can't be dispelled by targeting the creature wielding the weapon.. Unless it's a monk, I guess...
    Ok, thanks.

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