Mindbender's Telepathy???

[Tyger]

According to Complete Arcane, this power is a Supernatural ability. SU abilities usually require a Standard Action. But this is supposed to be akin to just talking, which is usually a Free Action.

So... does anyone have a ruling anywhere on this? I specifically went this route on my bard so as to be able to "sing" telepathically to use both Fascinate and Suggestion, as well as other bard song effects without being heard by others. Yet if the telepathy takes a Standard Action, that plan is completely impossible.

Help please!

[magic9mushroom]

According to Complete Arcane, this power is a Supernatural ability. SU abilities usually require a Standard Action. But this is supposed to be akin to just talking, which is usually a Free Action.

So... does anyone have a ruling anywhere on this? I specifically went this route on my bard so as to be able to "sing" telepathically to use both Fascinate and Suggestion, as well as other bard song effects without being heard by others. Yet if the telepathy takes a Standard Action, that plan is completely impossible.

Help please!

Telepathy is always active, so you don't need to spend an action to activate it. Talking in it is a Free Action like other talking.

Or at least that's how I see it.

[Zergrusheddie]

Ask your DM. Supernatural abilities tend to take a Standard Action but I think there are exceptions to the rule. If you can convince your DM that you can talk to your party members as a Free Action then it should be fine. As far as I know, there is no rule for using Inspire without actually singing.

Just a heads up, I would not be surprised if your DM said no to singing telepathically. It opens the door to you always singing, never causing alarm when sneaking into a place, being utterly immune to silence, and maybe even singing and casting at the same time.

On the Suggestion note, I don't see a problem with that. I used the exact same tactic with my Beguiler to influence creatures that I normally could not talk because of language problems.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

[Tyger]

Ask your DM. Supernatural abilities tend to take a Standard Action but I think there are exceptions to the rule. If you can convince your DM that you can talk to your party members as a Free Action then it should be fine. As far as I know, there is no rule for using Inspire without actually singing.

Just a heads up, I would not be surprised if your DM said no to singing telepathically. It opens the door to you always singing, never causing alarm when sneaking into a place, being utterly immune to silence, and maybe even singing and casting at the same time.

On the Suggestion note, I don't see a problem with that. I used the exact same tactic with my Beguiler to influence creatures that I normally could not talk because of language problems.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

Well, Melodic Casting feat deals with the singing and casting at the same time, and a simple Message spell permits you to talk, so why not sing? So this isn't really doing anything that a cantrip and a feat replicate. That said, it does it better and with less effort for me. :)

And seeing as how the bardic songs can be explicitly used via poetry and chanting, I can't think of a logical reason, let alone one by RAW, that you could not use them via telepathy.

EDIT: And for the record, I did not mean to suggest that you could sing via telepathy and cast spells at the same time, without the Melodic Casting feat anyway... but that's another issue.

[Gametime]

Telepathy is always listed as a special quality in the Monster Manual, and (despite being supernatural) never refers to requiring an action, just like resistances and damage reduction don't require an action.

Players don't divide abilities into "abilities" and "qualities" like monsters do, but I think it's supposed to work the same way.

[AbyssKnight]

I would not let you use Bard Song telepathically, just like a spell's Verbal components could not be "said" telepathically.

My reasoning for this is that Bard Song suffers a chance to fail if the Bard is deafened (just like spells with Verbal components). Deafness causes a chance to fail because it is difficult to say things correctly if you cannot hear.

Now, assuming your DM is okay with you using Bard Song telepathically, I agree that it should not take a separate action to activate Telepathy. The ability is constant (just like previous posters example of DR not needing activation) and in the description in the MM specifies it is exactly as difficult as normal speaking.

[AslanCross]

If I'm not mistaken, the Mindbender's telepathy is worded the exact same way as monster telepathy.

Telepathy
A creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time.

Some creatures have a limited form of telepathy, while others have a more powerful form of the ability.

No action is stated. In later statblocks, telepathy is listed under languages, so it seems it's just like another language you know, except it has a limited range and is mental.

[Tyger]

That sounds close enough to a consensus for me. Its pretty much self evident (at least to me) but I wanted to be sure I wasn't reading more into it than I should.

Now, that said, I am waffling on the use of bardic music via telepathy... my music is singing (at least for the most part), and I can see an argument why it would not work via telepathy... but I also think it makes logical sense that if they can hear my singing, in their heads, then it should apply, with all the usual restrictions attached to it.

HMmmmm... this one will likely come down to DM decision, but the worst part is he relies on me for balance and rules advice... crap.

[DementedFellow]

Honestly, you are using your class ability that you earned. It is a minor abuse of action economy, but instead of taking all the glory, you are buffing your friends for basically a free action.

I doubt the other players will complain when you are buffing them with extra modifiers for a free action.

[SaintRidley]

I haven't looked at 3.5 Bards in a while, so if I'm rusty on mechanics don't mind me.

Just make activating your bardic music use whatever action is required by the class. Make keeping it up and going use the free action if you use it telepathically.

If something steps out of the bounds of your telepathy, they lose the effect as soon as they do (unless it lasts for X number of rounds after you stop concentrating, basically treat leaving the range of your telepathy as if you stopped the music for them).

If they walk back in and you're still going, they can make another save to resist the effect with a +2 bonus for already having undergone the effect and knowing what's coming.

Something like that, preferably fixed to match the actual mechanics in question.

[Tyger]

The use of telepathy to give the bonus of the bardic song doesn't change the mechanics of the actions at all actually.

Activating Inspire Courage (for example) will still be a Standard Action. It normally doesn't take any actions at all to maintain it, so it wouldn't via telepathy either. You can sing with your voice all day, there is no mechanic that says you ever have to stop. Other than the "Don't be a jerk" rule of course.

So this isn't a matter of buffing the party with a free action rather than a standard. There's no "action economy" gain or loss.

The only real plus would be able to buff without being noticed. Normally your bardic music is pretty obvious - the bard is singing or playing an instrument or reciting epic poetry, whatever. People who know what a bard can do, will guess what you are doing. But with either the Message spell, Telepathy, or even a Telepathic Bond spell, you can "sing" to your party, or even just to one particular member, to give them the buff without anyone being able to tell what you are doing. You'd still need to spend the initial standard action, and still need to be able to focus (though the ability does not require Concentration, this just falls under the "Don't be a jerk" rule again) while you do it - so no singing telepathically whilst engaging in heated negotiations.

The other advantage would be being able to use Fascinate and Suggestion silently. Being able to lull the sentry with Fascinate, then Suggest that he make a sweep of the area where you set up your ambush, all without worrying about his sleeping allies hearing a thing. That's gold right there.

[Lycanthromancer]

The use of telepathy to give the bonus of the bardic song doesn't change the mechanics of the actions at all actually.

Activating Inspire Courage (for example) will still be a Standard Action. It normally doesn't take any actions at all to maintain it, so it wouldn't via telepathy either. You can sing with your voice all day, there is no mechanic that says you ever have to stop. Other than the "Don't be a jerk" rule of course.

So this isn't a matter of buffing the party with a free action rather than a standard. There's no "action economy" gain or loss.

The only real plus would be able to buff without being noticed. Normally your bardic music is pretty obvious - the bard is singing or playing an instrument or reciting epic poetry, whatever. People who know what a bard can do, will guess what you are doing. But with either the Message spell, Telepathy, or even a Telepathic Bond spell, you can "sing" to your party, or even just to one particular member, to give them the buff without anyone being able to tell what you are doing. You'd still need to spend the initial standard action, and still need to be able to focus (though the ability does not require Concentration, this just falls under the "Don't be a jerk" rule again) while you do it - so no singing telepathically whilst engaging in heated negotiations.

The other advantage would be being able to use Fascinate and Suggestion silently. Being able to lull the sentry with Fascinate, then Suggest that he make a sweep of the area where you set up your ambush, all without worrying about his sleeping allies hearing a thing. That's gold right there.

This does, however, allow you to use Inspire Competence on Hide and Move Silently checks.

Of course, if you happen to have Elan's temperament and intellect, you can REALLY bend peoples' minds.

[Tyger]

Good point there, though I wouldn't consider a possible +2 to the skills my party is woefully inadequate at, worth the use of a bardic music. Though it would be nice to be able to use "Bluff, bluff, bluff the stupid ogre!"

[Devils_Advocate]

Now, that said, I am waffling on the use of bardic music via telepathy... my music is singing (at least for the most part), and I can see an argument why it would not work via telepathy... but I also think it makes logical sense that if they can hear my singing, in their heads, then it should apply, with all the usual restrictions attached to it.

Ah, but can they hear your singing in their heads? Does telepathy allow you to convey sensory perceptions as imagined or perceived by you? "Communicate telepathically" is a bit of a vague phrase. Even if you can, imagining song is not the same as hearing song, and the music that you make in your mind will not necessarily have the same quality as music that you produce with your mouth or with instruments. At the very least, I would think that imaginary music would be a separate Perform skill. It would ideally use the same "clarity of mental image" skill that various transmutations, conjurations, and illusions would rely on. Unfortunately, there is no such skill.

Apart from that, there's the fact that Bard spells explicitly all have verbal components and can't be made Silent. So, in addition to the RAW saying that creatures have to hear your music to be affected by it, by the fluff bardic magic is inherently noisy; it doesn't work without sound. So looking at the issue from either angle, it seems that telepathic Bardic Music should not be viable.

Now, if you want to be able to employ Bardic Music without people being aware of it, there's the Subsonics feat from Complete Adventurer, which lets you affect your targets subliminally without being loud enough to consciously hear.

[Xenogears]

Fluff-Wise I'd hafta say that Telepathic Bard's song don't really fit. I always thought of it as the music/chanting/whatever having the power. The actual sound itself.

But if your only concerned about balance issues than as Devils_Advocate pointed out their is a feat that basically lets you do this. So balance-wise their should be no issues with you using Telepathic Bardic Music.

[Foryn Gilnith]

1) Does this make sense?
2) Does this imbalance the game?
3) Does this inhibit player fun?

Don't answer the first one; the answer should be self-evident to the DM, and convoluted arguments that enforce your preconceptions about a vague topic aren't worth much.

Consult with your group on the second one. Universal bonuses might seem agreeable, but some players might feel inferior. Or, more likely, the DM or IC characters might not want to deal with constant bardsong.

And just think about the third one. Forget concerns of what "should" be according to far-off principles of balance and sense. Will anyone care if you have telepathic bardsong?