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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    I have a question, so I come to the logical place: The Playground.

    It's quite simple to understand what the problem is, but horrible to make light of it due to full (and some might say, difficult) wording. Plus, I've been out of touch with the rules for a bit. I like Theurges (DM's guide), and I like Dragon Adepts [DA's], but I'm not sure if they qualify for the arcane side of Theurgism (Theurgism?). The box on DA page (p.24 of Dragon Magic) says:

    "...A DA cannot qualify for prestige classes... with spellcasting level requirements... however, caster level requirements are allowed."

    Forgive the ellipses, I'm lazy and the other bits were superfluous. However, if you look at page 78 in Dragon Magic, it details what the number next to the DA's invocations mean: they are level equivalents.

    So quite simply and with great (seeming) complexity I ask the question: is it legal to use a Dragonfire Adept to fulfil the Arcane requirements of the Mystic Theurge?

    Thanks for any answers.

    Also, if for those who'd be interested in where this character was going, it was probably Cleric of Bahamut (maybe Tiamat if I'm having a good day) and taking the Draconic Heritage feat keyed to either Gold on the Good side or Black/ Red with Tiamat.

    Thanks again.
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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Are Dragon adepts arcane casters?
    Preqs: Spells
    Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Cannot qualify unless there's a specific exception for the class (such as for example the exception that allows Shadowcasters to qualify for the arcane side of Mystic Theurge). DA's have a caster level but don't cast spells so they can't cast 2nd level spells. That said, letting them qualify isn't inherently unreasonable as a minor houserule.
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    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    No. Invoking classes (so far, just the DFA and the Warlock) do not qualify for things that require Xth Level Arcane Spells because they do not actually use Xth level arcane spells at all. They can qualify for things that require a specific spell if one of their invocations mimics it (eg, if there were a Telekinesis invocation than a DFA/Warlock could enter Master of the Unseen Hand) and they can qualify for things that simply require caster level X. I don't recall if there's actually anything useful they qualify for that way, tho- virtually everything that wasn't specifically made to be used by an invoker uses spell levels as the benchmark instead, and most of the stuff that *was* made just for the Warlock/DFA uses invocation grade or d6's of eldritch blast/breath weapon damage.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Now, a Wizard 1 with precocious apprentice (for 2nd level spell)/DA 1/Cleric 3 would qualify, and you could advance the DA.

    But then I have to ask why the Mystic Theurge?
    Plus, some DMs think Precocious apprentice is cheesy.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Cannot qualify unless there's a specific exception for the class (such as for example the exception that allows Shadowcasters to qualify for the arcane side of Mystic Theurge). DA's have a caster level but don't cast spells so they can't cast 2nd level spells. That said, letting them qualify isn't inherently unreasonable as a minor houserule.
    I believe the actual text on that is that they can qualify for EITHER side of the Theurge. Just a neat note, meaning you can do Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4. Note that I'm AFB at the moment, so that's just my memory talking, but it should read that way.

    Also, I'm fairly certain that DFAs can't qualify for Theurge, since they qualify for PrCs much like Warlocks do (and Warlocks can't qualify for Theurge). However, DFAs should be able to get into Eldritch Theurge/Eldritch Disciple just fine.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    I believe the actual text on that is that they can qualify for EITHER side of the Theurge. Just a neat note, meaning you can do Shadowcaster 3/Wizard 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 4. Note that I'm AFB at the moment, so that's just my memory talking, but it should read that way.
    Yes, they can substitute for either. They can do that build.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yes, they can substitute for either. They can do that build.
    Thought so, but I'm not at my ToM right now, and wasn't 100% positive. Also, that build is like roflawesome (double 9s built-in? Stat synergy? Sign me up!).

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Dragonfire Adept, by the way

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Now, a Wizard 1 with precocious apprentice (for 2nd level spell)/DA 1/Cleric 3 would qualify, and you could advance the DA.

    But then I have to ask why the Mystic Theurge?
    Plus, some DMs think Precocious apprentice is cheesy.
    I don't think many would if you talked to the DM and told him you weren't gonna advance the prec. apprentice class any past 1st level.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Actually, by a technicality, you can't enter Eldritch Theurge either. Eldritch Theurge requires you, as one of its entry requirements, to have Eldritch Blast at a certain level. While the progression in invocations adds up to the Dragonfire Adept, you'd still require two levels in Warlock (or three) to pull it off.

    Eldritch Disciple, though, has none of those requirements. In fact, it is a good way to mingle Cleric and DFA, though it is deeply recommended that you make it more Cleric than DFA. You can't get much alignments that way (you need to follow a deity that's either Chaotic or Evil), but it tends to work. As it goes, though, some of the Gifts of the Divine Patron won't work with the Eldritch Disciple (namely, Healing Blast with your Breath weapon as it explicitly says "Eldritch Blast"), nor you can use Eldritch Spellweave since you don't have Blast Shape or Essence Invocations. You can get along with the rest, though, which is not bad.

    Also, you don't get new breath enhancements IIRC. Because if you do, believe me, it transforms the PrC into a much better choice. But as far as I reckon, you only progress your breath weapon and your invocations.
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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Oskar: Those are reasonable things to ask your DM to change for you. Eldritch Blast becomes Breath Weapon, and all of those problems pretty much go away. However, yeah, technically, DFAs are shafted on the whole prestige class front.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    This is also a matter of game evolution. Before Warlocks, there wasn't any reason to list 'caster lvl x' as a requirement. So they simply wrote 'able to cast lvl x spells'.

    After Warlocks were introduced, they changed this trend and as mentioned in CA, Warlocks should be able to enter plenty of arcane PrC's because they are in fact spellcasters (well, invokers...).

    I don't think it's too much of a stretch to change MT requirements to 'caster level 3' instead.


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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Oskar: Those are reasonable things to ask your DM to change for you. Eldritch Blast becomes Breath Weapon, and all of those problems pretty much go away. However, yeah, technically, DFAs are shafted on the whole prestige class front.
    Reasonable to a point. Recall that you need a good DM to allow you to work something with Eldritch Theurge and Eldritch Disciple, which are evidently Warlock-centric and disregard the very existence of DFA.

    However, even then, DFA has the worst part on PrCs. This is mostly because of how the breath weapon differs from the Eldritch Blast, and how the breath effects are unlike the blast shape and essence invocations. A Warlock entering into ET or ED loses pretty much nothing, since you either make Warlock secondary (and mostly progress either arcane or divine spellcasting), or you get the shaft and try to progress both on equal terms. DFA is worse because you lose the only way to make your breath weapon have different effects, which limits you to a fire breath weapon that can be either a line or a cone. You can get to level 2 and nab a breath effect, but it's the least of all breath effects; afterwards, your breath weapon will progress in damage (and probably save DC), but not in effects. Eldritch Theurge, which by RAW is inaccessible, answers that somehow by allowing the spells that alter breath weapons, but that implies getting into Sorcerer quite early, sacrifice only one level of DFA (or perhaps two), and use your spell slots to benefit your breath weapon every now and then (though, you get some nice spells that way). The big loser is Cleric, though, because Eldritch Disciple is severely restrictive in terms of how it works, so you end up basically becoming a Cleric that gains a breath weapon and some at-will spell-like abilities; you do lose about two or three caster levels, which hurts a lot.

    Gifts of the Divine Patron aren't so surprising, but nice quirks nonetheless. Healing Blast is the best of the lot, since it can be maximized (using the metabreath feats from Draconomicon) and turned into a cone of healing energy that restores up to around...30 HP or so by expending a use of turn undead. With a breath weapon that deals 9d6 damage, you can heal about one-third of a Heal spell with your breath weapon; it doesn't consume a spell, and you can mostly get Nightsticks if uses of TU worry you. (Then again, CD's Sacred Healing is far better than the breath weapon effect). The only advantage you'd like to apply from Eldritch Disciple can't be applied, though (adding your breath effects to spells), since it only applies to Warlock essence invocations.

    Getting 15th level breath effects and turning, say, Earthquake into a massively huge Disintegrate spell would have been worth it, tho. Earthquake + Discorporating Breath of Bahamut = Win.
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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmingboy View Post
    So quite simply and with great (seeming) complexity I ask the question: is it legal to use a Dragonfire Adept to fulfil the Arcane requirements of the Mystic Theurge?
    Not by the book, but there's no reason it shouldn't be in your game.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    At Benthejester: Thanks.

    At Starbuck_II: I take it precocious apprentice is a feat? What book is it in?
    The reason why I like Theurges is that I like to be able to fully apply my roleplaying knowledge. Toning down my own level of play due to reduced Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma on my character's part is something I can do quite easily but don't always enjoy. E.g. I'm in a Star Wars D20 campaign at the moment with a Wisdom 8 character. In reality I reckon Wisdom would probably be my highest stat, so I blunder around a lot, missing really obvious things. Plus I like to be as versatile as possible, so lots of spells = good.

    On another note, the last Theurge I played was an 300 year old gray elf wizard/ cleric of Boccob. He looked a bit like the god too. Long plaited beard and hair etc. It was a really fun Gothic campaign, but I was about 8 ECL's away from the other players because they were all overpowered vampires. In the end I got bored and punched a werewolf in the mouth before casting heightened Sanctuary and Mind Fog off a scroll. Ended up with even longer hair. Good days.

    At all others, thanks for the feedback. I'll talk to the upcoming DM.
    My (Short) Dungeon
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    You enter the dungeon. Do you go Left(First) or Right (Second)
    Spoiler
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    You went left. You hear a click from the wall in front of you. Do you duck (First) or stand still (Second)
    Spoiler
    Show
    You duck. Too late, you realise this dart trap was made for dwarves. It gets you in the eye. And proceeds to your brain. You die.
    Spoiler
    Show
    You stand still. You whimper as a dart hits your crotch. With force. You are still alive, but decide to leave. Fast.
    Spoiler
    Show
    You went right. You suffer a generic death.


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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmingboy View Post
    At Benthejester: Thanks.

    At Starbuck_II: I take it precocious apprentice is a feat? What book is it in?
    The reason why I like Theurges is that I like to be able to fully apply my roleplaying knowledge. Toning down my own level of play due to reduced Wisdom, Intelligence or Charisma on my character's part is something I can do quite easily but don't always enjoy. E.g. I'm in a Star Wars D20 campaign at the moment with a Wisdom 8 character. In reality I reckon Wisdom would probably be my highest stat, so I blunder around a lot, missing really obvious things. Plus I like to be as versatile as possible, so lots of spells = good.
    Complete Arcane, but not in the feat section: they hides it. They hides my precious. (Gollum gollum).
    But yeah, they put it in another section.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    Also, even if it did qualify, many of the Dragonfire Adept's best class abilities are not Invocations. You'd give up progressing their breath weapon, breath effects, scales, DR, and you also might have trouble with Skills, since DFA has excellent options but MT has crud.

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    Default Re: Dragon Adept+ Cleric = Mystic Theurge? (3.5e question)

    They progress Breath weapon damage, DC and invocations whilst using prestige classes.
    My (Short) Dungeon
    Spoiler
    Show
    You enter the dungeon. Do you go Left(First) or Right (Second)
    Spoiler
    Show
    You went left. You hear a click from the wall in front of you. Do you duck (First) or stand still (Second)
    Spoiler
    Show
    You duck. Too late, you realise this dart trap was made for dwarves. It gets you in the eye. And proceeds to your brain. You die.
    Spoiler
    Show
    You stand still. You whimper as a dart hits your crotch. With force. You are still alive, but decide to leave. Fast.
    Spoiler
    Show
    You went right. You suffer a generic death.


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