[4e] Barbarian - 6d6 At-Will

[Thajocoth]

What's wrong here?

Base Weapon - Mordenkrad. [W] = 2d6 (brutal 1)

Howling Strike deals 1[W] + 1d6, and can be used as a melee basic when you charge

Horned Helm adds 1d6 to charge damage

Magic on weapon: Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad - Charge attacks deal an additional [W] of damage.

So charging results in 2[W] + 2d6 = 4d6 (brutal1) + 2d6. At-will.

Toss in a Badge of the Berserker to avoid AOs while charging and Boots of Adept Charging to shift away post-charge to start setting up for next turn's charge.

Everythings at-will and mostly passive.

Where's the hole in this? There must be something wrong here.

[Krrth]

What's wrong here?

Weapon - Mordenkrad. [W] = 2d6 (brutal 1)

Howling Strike deals 1[W] + 1d6, and can be used as a melee basic when you charge

Horned Helm adds 1d6 to charge damage

Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad - Charge attacks deal an additional [W] of damage.

So charging results in 2[W] + 2d6 = 4d6 (brutal1) + 2d6. At-will.

Toss in a Badge of the Berserker to avoid AOs while charging and Boots of Adept Charging to shift away post-charge to start setting up for next turn's charge.

Everythings at-will and mostly passive.

Where's the hole in this? There must be something wrong here.

That...doesn't look right. The 1[W] doesn't stack with the weapon damage, it merely refers back to the weapon.

So....you should be looking at 1[w]+2d6. ALthough I do have to ask, what is a mordenkrad, and why are you using two at once?

[Thajocoth]

That...doesn't look right. The 1[W] doesn't stack with the weapon damage, it merely refers back to the weapon.

So....you should be looking at 1[w]+2d6. ALthough I do have to ask, what is a mordenkrad, and why are you using two at once?

Not using 2 at once. Using one. It's the base weapon. Avalanche Hammer is the magic on it. Avalanche Hammer adds a [W] to the damage of charge attacks with the weapon it's enchanted on, and it can be enchanted on any weapon in the "Hammer" group. So an Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad is a Mordenkrad with the Avalanche Hammer enchantment on it. Edited original post to clarify this.

A Mordenkrad is a Superior 2H melee hammer. It's described in the Adventurer's Vault as a big spiked hammer. There are no pictures of it.

[Sinfire Titan]

The biggest thing here is it's restricted to when you Charge. Unless you know the party's controller can Push or Slide the enemy (or Pull/Slide you) consistently, this is going to be fairly difficult to use every round.

[Thajocoth]

The biggest thing here is it's restricted to when you Charge. Unless you know the party's controller can Push or Slide the enemy (or Pull/Slide you) consistently, this is going to be fairly difficult to use every round.

The party I'm bringing this character into has no controller. The fact that I need to charge is important here, however:

A - I can ping-pong between 2 enemies thanks to Badge of the Berserker - You take no AOs while charging.

B - If there are no other enemies far enough, odds are that my mostly-melee allies are close enough to keep him from moving too much. Boots of Adept Charging - I shift one square after charge attacks. On my next turn, I simply shift and charge.

C - If I'm in a really bad situation, taking the AO to add my charge bonuses to my attack is usually going to be worth it.

Immobilization does become very crippling thing though... And it makes domination from an enemy VERY powerful, since they can have me charge with Howling Strike and all my bonuses... I think I'm starting to see how it's balanced.

[Krrth]

Not using 2 at once. Using one. It's the base weapon. Avalanche Hammer is the magic on it. Avalanche Hammer adds a [W] to the damage of charge attacks with the weapon it's enchanted on, and it can be enchanted on any weapon in the "Hammer" group. So an Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad is a Mordenkrad with the Avalanche Hammer enchantment on it. Edited original post to clarify this.

A Mordenkrad is a Superior 2H melee hammer. It's described in the Adventurer's Vault as a big spiked hammer. There are no pictures of it.

Ah, Right. You would indeed do 4d6+2d6+strength mod every time you charged. Averaging 18+str mod per hit. Nice, but by no means broken. My level 4 swordmage is reliably doing 12 per hit without charging. So figure you're doing twice the damage, at the cost of both your move action and your standard action.

Sinfire is right in that having to use the charge action every time is going to limit the effectiveness by quite a bit.

[erikun]

I assume that Howling Strike is an at-will?

Beyond that, there is the problem with trying to charge the same target repeatedly. Charging multiple targets also has the problem of spreading around the damage, so that you're taking twice as long to kill something. It looks like you have a few tricks planned, but some very simple tactics - shifting towards you on their turn, knocking you prone - will cut your charging days short. Also, the fact that most enemies will charge up to you, not giving you the room to charge between them.

Your damage is cut in half when you don't charge.

Also note that the Sorcerer gets a 6d6 at level 1, albeit not at-will.

[Sinfire Titan]

The party I'm bringing this character into has no controller. The fact that I need to charge is important here, however:

A - I can ping-pong between 2 enemies thanks to Badge of the Berserker - You take no AOs while charging.

Except when you Charge you need to Charge the closest opponent. Since the closest opponent is all ready adjacent, you can't Charge.

B - If there are no other enemies far enough, odds are that my mostly-melee allies are close enough to keep him from moving too much. Boots of Adept Charging - I shift one square after charge attacks. On my next turn, I simply shift and charge.

I'd actually Multiclass for an Encounter power that allows you to Shift up to two squares or more. I know Ranger has a few, and I know Wizards have Expeditious Retreat.

[Dragonmuncher]

The Base Weapon is Mordenkrad, with a [W] of 2d6

so, W=2d6

Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad does 2W on a charge- making the base charge damage 4d6

Howling Strike is an attack that does W+ 1d6 (instead of the normal W), and Horned Helm adds another 1d6

So it's 4d6+1d6+1d6=6d6

Sounds right to me.

[AtwasAwamps]

I'd actually Multiclass for an Encounter power that allows you to Shift up to two squares or more. I know Ranger has a few, and I know Wizards have Expeditious Retreat.

Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

[Krrth]

Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

So would being a water, acid, or void genasi.

[Thajocoth]

I assume that Howling Strike is an at-will?

Beyond that, there is the problem with trying to charge the same target repeatedly. Charging multiple targets also has the problem of spreading around the damage, so that you're taking twice as long to kill something. It looks like you have a few tricks planned, but some very simple tactics - shifting towards you on their turn, knocking you prone - will cut your charging days short. Also, the fact that most enemies will charge up to you, not giving you the room to charge between them.

Your damage is cut in half when you don't charge.

Also note that the Sorcerer gets a 6d6 at level 1, albeit not at-will.

Yes, Howling Strike is an at-will. When I can't charge though, I've got my encounter powers.

Here's the build, from the builder:

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Shamash, level 8
Dragonborn, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might: Rageblood Vigor
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Fire
Background: Wandering Duelist (Wandering Duelist Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 16, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 13.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 11.


AC: 23 Fort: 24 Reflex: 17 Will: 17
HP: 73 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +15, Endurance +11, Athletics +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History +6, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Religion +4, Stealth +3, Streetwise +5, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Powerful Charge
Level 2: Reckless Charge
Level 4: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 6: Hide Armor Expertise
Level 8: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)

POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian at-will 1: Howl of Fury
Barbarian encounter 1: Avalanche Strike
Barbarian daily 1: Thunder Hooves Rage
Barbarian utility 2: Shrug It Off
Barbarian encounter 3: Blood Strike
Barbarian daily 5: Tiger's Claw Rage
Barbarian utility 6: Run Rampant
Barbarian encounter 7: Looming Threat

ITEMS
Badge of the Berserker +2, Bestial Hide Armor +2, Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad +2, Horned Helm (heroic tier), Boots of Adept Charging (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (3), Throwing hammer (3), Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Crowbar
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[Mando Knight]

Ah, Right. You would indeed do 4d6+2d6+strength mod every time you charged. Averaging 18+str mod per hit.

It's actually 4d6 (brutal 1) + 2d6 +Static. That's a damage flux of 10-36 plus a constant, with an average of 23+K', where K' is the constant damage modifier with Strength added (Strength modifier plus Weapon Focus plus magic plus whatever).

By contrast, a Ranger typically deals 2d10+1d6+2K or 2d10+1d8+2K, where K is the constant damage modifier without Strength.

Assuming both are at level 2, have Strength of 18 (+4 modifier), a +1 weapon, and Weapon Focus (+1), this gives damage fluxes of:
Barbarian: 16-42, average 29
Ranger: 9-30, average 18.5

However, at level 30, if both have +6 weapons, 28 Strength (+9), Weapon Focus (+3), and epic Iron Armbands of Power (+6), this becomes
Barbarian: 6d6 brutal 1 +2d6 +K', or (12-36)+(2-12)+24 = 38-72, average 55
Ranger: 4d10+3d8+2K, or (4-40)+(3-24)+30 = 37-94, average 65.5

So the Barbarian using this strategy remains roughly on par with the Ranger even through the epic tier.

[Sinfire Titan]

Wouldn't Swift Panther Rage also do this quite easily?

That would work. But the more he gets, the better (unless one is an At Will for some unknown reason). Technically, the Goblin's racial power would work (but the Mordenkrad is too big for a Goblin).

[Kylarra]

Except when you Charge you need to Charge the closest opponent. Since the closest opponent is all ready adjacent, you can't Charge.

What? No you don't. You have to move to the closest square adjacent to your target, but there's no requirement that you have to target the closest enemy.

[Sinfire Titan]

What? No you don't. You have to move to the closest square adjacent to your target, but there's no requirement that you have to target the closest enemy.

Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

[Yakk]

4d6 brutal 1 = 16 average damage.
2d6 = 7 average damage
Str of +4 = 4 average damage
+1 magic weapon = 1 average damage

28 average damage, at-will, average.

Feats:
Level 4 magic item (hammer)
Badge of the Berserker (level 2)
Horned Helm (level 6)

So you have to be about level 5 to pull this off, and your best item is your horned helm.

Critical: 46.5 average (+18.5).

To hit: +4 (str)+1(weapon)+2(prof)+1 (expertise)+1 (charge)+2(level)
= +12 to hit.

Suppose you are charging a level 6 non-soldier with 20 AC. You hit on an 8+ (65% of the time) and crit on a 20. You do .65*28+.05*18.5 = 19.13 DPR, but you have to generally split it between two targets. +0.65 if you throw in weapon focus for 19.78 total. Toss in the free basic attack you get on a crit for another +0.45 damage per round and the total is 20.23 damage per round on average.

As a comparison, a level 5 brutal rogue with 20 dex and 16 str and a +2 dagger (instead of your helm), and nimble blade and weapon focus.

1d4+2d8+5 (dex)+3 (str)+2 (dagger)+1 (focus)
22.5 damage on a hit average, 38 on a crit.
To hit is +2 (level)+5(dex)+3 (prof)+1(talent)+2(ench)+1(expertise)+2 (CA)+1(nimble)=+17 to hit.

This rogue hits on a 3+, or 90% of the time, for a DPR of 21.0.

In short, no, this isn't unreasonable. A completely vanilla rogue can match that DPR using at-will spam.

[Thajocoth]

This is a level 8 build. The full result of the charge attack is:

No AOs on the way there

+16 attack, 4d6(brutal 1) + 2d6 + 10 damage

Can shift 1 square after

May choose to add +1 to attack roll, taking -2 penalty to AC until the start of my next turn.

That's 20 damage minimum, 46 maximum at level 8.

The rest of the party is a Paladin, Avenger, Warden & Ranger. The Avenger may choose to switch to a Cleric. The Ranger switches back & forth between melee & ranged a lot.

[Yakk]

Meh, same difference.

It isn't bad, but it isn't ridiculously broken.

Enjoy!

[Hzurr]

If you have the boots that let you shift at the end of a charge, the build becomes very easy (I know this, because the Barbarian in my party does it all the time).

1st round: Charge attack. After the attack, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots
2nd round: Shift back a square as a move action, and you're now far enough back to charge. At the end of the charge, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots.
<repeat>

The only way for the Monster to combat this is if it keeps on advancing on the barbarian (and if you have a defender to keep it marked, this becomes difficult).

Barbarians are deadly.

[Thajocoth]

If you have the boots that let you shift at the end of a charge, the build becomes very easy (I know this, because the Barbarian in my party does it all the time).

1st round: Charge attack. After the attack, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots
2nd round: Shift back a square as a move action, and you're now far enough back to charge. At the end of the charge, shift back 1 square thanks to the boots.
<repeat>

The only way for the Monster to combat this is if it keeps on advancing on the barbarian (and if you have a defender to keep it marked, this becomes difficult).

Barbarians are deadly.

I have those boots and 2 defenders in the party.

[Artanis]

One thing I notice is that doing this also requires you to dedicate four item slots to it, including two of the big three. That's a pretty hefty opportunity cost to make a one-trick pony that isn't necessarily all that great anyways.

[Thajocoth]

One thing I notice is that doing this also requires you to dedicate four item slots to it, including two of the big three. That's a pretty hefty opportunity cost to make a one-trick pony that isn't necessarily all that great anyways.

The magic item I have but haven't mentioned is Bestial Hide Armor. This one's got an item daily that gives me a free melee basic on the target of my charge after my charge, so it's all of the big 3.

It mostly came about from wanting passive bonuses that help me in some way, as I don't feel like dealing with managing a bunch of item dailies. A simple character with simple options... I have exactly 1 item daily, so there's no management of them by milestone. But yes, there are 8 eggs in this basket, and another 6 eggs that help this basket but are also useful elsewhere. None of my other eggs fit in the basket.

[Corvus]

Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.

The one you want is Thundergod, which does +2d6 on a charge and uses D12 for crits when charging.

[Thajocoth]

Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.

The one you want is Thundergod, which does +2d6 on a charge and uses D12 for crits when charging.

Thundergod doesn't exist until +3. This character is starting at level 8. It's easy to extrapolate to +2, but the DM would have to be willing. (Unlikely here.)

I did send the DM my build, and he didn't say anything was wrong with it. I had added an extra card detailing the bonuses of my charge attacks. It's unlikely he looked into it much though.

Also, Thundergod Weapon +3 & +4 add 1d6 to a charge. Not 2d6. It's +5 & +6 that add 2d6.

[oxybe]

am i the only one who's imagining a kobold barbarian using a Craghammer to racial shift as minor>shift as move>charge all the time

it's not the 21 damage of a 6d6r, but it is 2d10+2d6 for an average of 18 and can be done virtually every turn.

[Yakk]

Not sure if Avalanche Hammer works with this. Its property reads when you charge and hit a melee basic attack you do 1W extra damage.

Howling Strike is an At Will, not an MBA, but it can be used in place of an MBA on a charge.

That is a good point. Oh well, that costs the trick 1d6 damage (only 4d6B1+1d6 damage) for now.

On the plus side, that frees up an at-will.

[sofawall]

Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

Kept from 3.5? What? The rule has never existed.

[Godskook]

Really? I thought that was one of the few rules they kept from 3.5. I know Marking usually requires the targets to be the closest (at least the Ranger's does).

I don't see that in the 3.5 rules either...

[Thajocoth]

That is a good point. Oh well, that costs the trick 1d6 damage (only 4d6B1+1d6 damage) for now.

On the plus side, that frees up an at-will.

If the DM decides to rule things that way, that's what I'll do, using Howling Strike only when I'm raging and need the 2 extra speed for the charge... But I think even if he does read the exact descriptions word for word, he'll agree that the intent is to add to charge damage in general and allow it anyway. Intent > written at this table.