[3.5] Wizard/Psion Optimization

[Exthalion]

I have heard the Psion is nearly as broken as Wizard. I am interested in both these classes and the idea of a character who has the power of mind and magic intrigues me.

I asked a similar question in another thread, so I will give an example of the campaign this would be for.

I am the only caster in the party. The others are a human fighter, a warforged psychic warrior/fighter, and a Kobold rouge/assassin.

We are starting at level 10 and use the spellpoint variant. 28 point buy. What would be the best class combination that would grant great amounts of arcane and psionic power and limit as much as possible my access to higher level spells/powers? I would prefer to have 9th level spells by level 20.

Also, I have heard of the Erudite. Would that make a better class then a normal psion?

[herrhauptmann]

If you're really going to go Wizard/Psion, you want the Cerebremancer
Seems to be similar to Mystic theurge. So wiz3, psionic something 3, cerebremancer 1 has casting/manifesting level of 4 in each.
Once you've completed the PrC, decide if you want to keep investing in wizard, or psion. That'll get you 9th level spells or powers as applicable.

Also, psions don't really gain anything at epic levels, (no extra power points or anything) so you're better of maxing wizard.
Wiz 3, psi 3, cerebre 10, wiz 4 will get you 9th level spells.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psions have their moments, and can be broken with a bit of effort, but they're nowhere near as b0rked as a wizard (though you also have to work harder to make a psion useless).

Erudites are variant psions that are good at higher levels, but don't have standard discipline access (though they can learn lower-level discipline powers). If you want wizard spell access (and don't want to bother with multiclassing), check out the spell-to-power erudite. These are WORSE than wizards brokenness-wise, since they can get powers, spells, and can bypass pretty much all of the components that spells normally require (GP and XP, mainly).

Erudite is in Complete Psionic, and the StP variant is online. It's like wizard/psion/cerebremancer already ready already.

Wouldn't want to play an erudite until at least mid-levels, though.

[Exthalion]

What kind of progression would you recommend then? We are starting at level 10 which seems fairly mid level.

[Pluto]

If you have access to web sources, Wizards of the Coast published a "Spells to Powers" Erudite variant on its website.

That can pretty simply get you what you're looking for.

Otherwise a Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer can be a perfectly decent character. If you use the Precocious Apprentice feat from Complete Arcane, you get to cast 2nd level spells from Wizard level 1. Spend 3 levels in Psion, jump into Cerebremancer and you'll have another character that fits the bill with minimum entry-weaseling.

[Lycanthromancer]

If you have access to web sources, Wizards of the Coast published a "Spells to Powers" Erudite variant on its website.

Har. Har. I ninjard j00.

What kind of progression would you recommend then? We are starting at level 10 which seems fairly mid level.

Yeah, that'd be about right (though I suggest burninating a level on XP for learning powers and spells, 'cuz you'll want a HUGE repertoir available). That, and item creation, if you go that route.

Erudite 10 (or 9) would be the way to go, since most PrCs aren't 10/10 manifesting (except the anarchic initiate, but we won't go there).

[Exthalion]

Sounds very interesting. Is the fact that we are using spell points making this kind of moot?

Seems like with Erudite and some feats from Dragon I could basically make my power points and spell points part of the same pool.

[Lycanthromancer]

Sounds very interesting. Is the fact that we are using spell points making this kind of moot?

Seems like with Erudite and some feats from Dragon I could basically make my power points and spell points part of the same pool.

Not sure about the feats, but spell points and power points generally don't stack.

You can, however, learn the psionic spells (see the SRD), and regenerate your pp pool really fast.

[Exthalion]

How could I regenerate my pool fast?

The feats are from Dragon 349.

Cannibalize Spell allows you to give up a prepared spell for powerpoints. Which with spell points means turning one into the other.

Psiomancer does the opposite, allowing you to give up powerpoints to gain a prepared spell.

With the two, the two pools effectively disappear into one giant pool of magical/mental might.

Could I use that along with Spell-to-power Erudite to use wizard as a spell book for my psion?

[Optimystik]

Erudite is in Complete Psionic, and the StP variant is online. It's like wizard/psion/cerebremancer already ready already.

Wouldn't want to play an erudite until at least mid-levels, though.

Please note that base Erudites are also available online.

...with the same confusing UPD wording intact.

How could I regenerate my pool fast?

This is all you need, though there are other ways.

[Lycanthromancer]

How could I regenerate my pool fast?

The feats are from Dragon 349.

Cannibalize Spell allows you to give up a prepared spell for powerpoints. Which with spell points means turning one into the other.

Psiomancer does the opposite, allowing you to give up powerpoints to gain a prepared spell.

With the two, the two pools effectively disappear into one giant pool of magical/mental might.

Costs 2 feats though, which is quite expensive (and you can't use metamagic on psionics or metapsionics on spells).

Could I use that along with Spell-to-power Erudite to use wizard as a spell book for my psion?

Yeah, but you still have to spend XP to learn them as powers, and you can't use psion powers as spells. There are a slew of other differences (such as class/PrC/racial abilities that affect magic but not psionics, metamagic and metapsionics, familiars and psicrystals, and so on) that don't cross the psi/magic barrier, so you'll have to think about what focus you want for your build.

[magic9mushroom]

If you want arcane power and psionic power, a Spell to Power Erudite is the way to go. At level 10 you'll have 5th level powers and 4th level arcane spells (and you can learn them off any list, leading to cheese with bard spells that are lower level than the corresponding Sor/Wiz spells). Alternatively go Wizard 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 6, since you can make up some of the hole in your Ardent manifesting with Practised Manifester.

[Lycanthromancer]

If you want arcane power and psionic power, a Spell to Power Erudite is the way to go. At level 10 you'll have 5th level powers and 4th level arcane spells (and you can learn them off any list, leading to cheese with bard spells that are lower level than the corresponding Sor/Wiz spells). Alternatively go Wizard 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 6, since you can make up some of the hole in your Ardent manifesting with Practised Manifester.

You could try wizard 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/swordsage (or crusader or warblade or some other class) 2/ardent 1 (Practiced Manifester)/cerebremancer 10. Use levels 2 and 3 to give yourself some nifty abilities, either to improve your survivability, toss in something that grants insane utility, or manipulates your psionic or magical abilities.

Anybody have any ideas for the 2 filler levels (other than the obvious wizard or ardent)?

[Draz74]

Well, it does seem like you need another Ardent level. Practiced Manifester will get you a Manifester Level of 5, but that doesn't mean you'll know any 2nd- or 3rd-level powers unless you take another Ardent level after taking Practiced Manifester.

Unless if you took Practiced Manifester before you had any Ardent levels, I guess. I forget, does Practiced Manifester have any prerequisites?

Ardent 2 isn't a bad idea anyway, as it gets you a third Mantle from which to pick your psionic powers.

[AbyssKnight]

Well, going by the order of advancement for gaining levels in the PHB, you choose feats after class, but before spells (or powers in this case). So A 4th level Wizard multiclassing into Ardent can choose Practiced Manifester before chosing his powers known.

But, the Ardent class description does seem to specify that a first level ardent always knows two 1st level powers as their powers known, and only in subsequent levels chooses powers based on your manifester level.

So, it seems, yes, you would need to take at least two levels of Ardent, but you could take Practiced Manifester the same level as the second level since you choose it before choosing powers.

[erikun]

Practiced Manifester specifies "choose a manifesting class that you possess." I don't think you can pick the feat for the Ardent before actually taking the class.

[tyckspoon]

Practiced Manifester specifies "choose a manifesting class that you possess." I don't think you can pick the feat for the Ardent before actually taking the class.

You couldn't pick it when your only class is Wizard, but if you went something like Wiz 2/Ardent 1 you could take it as your 3rd level feat; pick a class is the very first step in the leveling order, so you would have a manifesting class when it came time to select your feat.