A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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    Superglucose's Avatar

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    Default Researching Spells

    Ok, so in the SRD we have,
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    Independent Research

    A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

    I don't particularly want to make new spells, but I would like to research to pick some new spells for my spellbook. Particularly, I'd like to get Levitation even though I've already picked 4 level 4 spells (Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Web, and Alter Self). But I cannot find any rules adjudicating this research. Are there any in a splat book I could reference my GM to? Or in the main books?

    I tried the DMG and it talks about creating new spells, specifically that they shouldn't be too powerful and how much damage is "too much" for Divine/Arcane spells.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Hm, I don't think there are any. I hope I'm wrong, because it would be pretty dumb on WotC's part not to include real guidelines for this sort of thing. Par for the course I guess.
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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by GoodbyeSoberDay View Post
    Hm, I don't think there are any. I hope I'm wrong, because it would be pretty dumb on WotC's part not to include real guidelines for this sort of thing. Par for the course I guess.
    There are rules in the 3.0 book Tome & Blood. Comp. Arcane may have updated rules.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Scrolls of said spells might be your answer.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Particularly, I'd like to get Levitation even though I've already picked 4 level 4 spells (Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Web, and Alter Self).
    Those are lvl 2 spells.

    You can always just use Alter Self to transform into something that has an actual Fly Speed, not the lame version of fly ie. Levitate.
    Common sense is not so common.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Superglucose View Post
    Ok, so in the SRD we have,
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    Independent Research

    A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

    I don't particularly want to make new spells, but I would like to research to pick some new spells for my spellbook. Particularly, I'd like to get Levitation even though I've already picked 4 level 4 spells (Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Web, and Alter Self). But I cannot find any rules adjudicating this research. Are there any in a splat book I could reference my GM to? Or in the main books?

    I tried the DMG and it talks about creating new spells, specifically that they shouldn't be too powerful and how much damage is "too much" for Divine/Arcane spells.
    Unless you want a spell that does something different from all spells that exist, grabbing a scroll is generally much cheaper.
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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Those are lvl 2 spells.

    You can always just use Alter Self to transform into something that has an actual Fly Speed, not the lame version of fly ie. Levitate.
    Levitate works on objects & other creatures, unlike Alter Self.

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Unless you want a spell that does something different from all spells that exist, grabbing a scroll is generally much cheaper.
    I'm guessing his access to scrolls is restricted.
    Last edited by faceroll; 2010-02-23 at 05:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Independant of what spells he wants to add, this is an interesting question.

    What are the rules for researching?


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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    I do not know if there is an official way to research a spell, but you can duplicate one from another spellbook into yours or from a scroll and that costs 500gp pr. page used in your spellbook

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceforge View Post
    I do not know if there is an official way to research a spell, but you can duplicate one from another spellbook into yours or from a scroll and that costs 500gp pr. page used in your spellbook
    It's actually 150 gp per page, or just 50 if you have a Blessed Book.
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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    DMG pg 198 under "researching original spells". If you're just duplicating an existing spell, then there's no real need to quibble about spell levels. It'll cost you 1k*spell level and take spell level in weeks. Note: this is strictly inferior to copying spells from friendly spellcasters, but if access is limited, I guess you have no choice.
    Last edited by Kylarra; 2010-02-23 at 12:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    DMG pg 198 under "researching original spells". If you're just duplicating an existing spell, then there's no real need to quibble about spell levels. It'll cost you 1k*spell level and take spell level in weeks. Note: this is strictly inferior to copying spells from friendly spellcasters, but if access is limited, I guess you have no choice.
    Hooray for ridiculous overpricing.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Hooray for ridiculous overpricing.
    Hooray for also not costing XP.

    Also, 1k per spell level is fairly reasonable, since it means you can research wish independently for 9000 gp, roughly the price of a +2 longsword. Let's be fair here, which is the better buy?

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Hooray for also not costing XP.

    Also, 1k per spell level is fairly reasonable, since it means you can research wish independently for 9000 gp, roughly the price of a +2 longsword. Let's be fair here, which is the better buy?
    Only you then burn thousands of XP for every use of the spell, and as a caster why would you even want a sword?

    Besides, even a scroll of Wish, XP pre-payed and ready to be used by anyone costs a third a much - and takes 30 seconds to buy!

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Besides, even a scroll of Wish, XP pre-payed and ready to be used by anyone costs a third a much - and takes 30 seconds to buy!
    Your magic mart is an internet store with instant delivery?

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Only you then burn thousands of XP for every use of the spell, and as a caster why would you even want a sword?

    Besides, even a scroll of Wish, XP pre-payed and ready to be used by anyone costs a third a much - and takes 30 seconds to buy!
    Um... a scroll of Wish costs 28,000 gp. Just saying. Also, was just an example. Use Time Stop if you want, the point stands.

    Also, it's just a way to point out that the costs are a nigh-negligible tax on the most powerful mechanic in the game: getting new spells. You already get enough naturally to snap the universe in twain by sneezing, scrolls are just nice. I mean, 9k to get the best spells ever without leaving your basement? Sign me up.

    If you lack magic marts to buy any scroll at that you want, than independent spell research is a good way to get that spell you just have to have, assuming you have the time. It's hardly all that prohibitive.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Um... a scroll of Wish costs 28,000 gp. Just saying. Also, was just an example. Use Time Stop if you want, the point stands.

    Also, it's just a way to point out that the costs are a nigh-negligible tax on the most powerful mechanic in the game: getting new spells. You already get enough naturally to snap the universe in twain by sneezing, scrolls are just nice. I mean, 9k to get the best spells ever without leaving your basement? Sign me up.

    If you lack magic marts to buy any scroll at that you want, than independent spell research is a good way to get that spell you just have to have, assuming you have the time. It's hardly all that prohibitive.
    Oops, I forget that Wish costs more. xD

    Spell research would be ok in game with no shops selling scrolls, but it take so long that how can PCs be expected to ever use it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    Your magic mart is an internet store with instant delivery?
    The time taken to go to the shop is roughly equal to the time taken to go to a library. So the only extra time is paying for whatever you choose.
    Last edited by Myou; 2010-02-23 at 01:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Spell research would be ok in game with no shops selling scrolls, but it take so long that how can PCs be expected to ever use it?
    Um... some games actually offer down time? It's not an alien concept really.

    Also, most games (based on my 12 years of play experience, to be fair) actually do not have shops with set lists of scrolls. You walk in, ask what they've got, and hope you get lucky.

    These factors combined mean that yes, if you happen to find a scroll of what you want, then yay, good for you. If not... then spell research is a fine alternative, and should not be so easily dismissed. Now, in a straight comparison, yes, scrolls are obviously much more cost effective, but they're at the whim of the DM, where as spell research is a lot harder for him to justify removing ("What do you mean, I can't research fireball? I watched that guy cast it just yesterday!").

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by arguskos View Post
    Um... some games actually offer down time? It's not an alien concept really.

    Also, most games (based on my 12 years of play experience, to be fair) actually do not have shops with set lists of scrolls. You walk in, ask what they've got, and hope you get lucky.

    These factors combined mean that yes, if you happen to find a scroll of what you want, then yay, good for you. If not... then spell research is a fine alternative, and should not be so easily dismissed. Now, in a straight comparison, yes, scrolls are obviously much more cost effective, but they're at the whim of the DM, where as spell research is a lot harder for him to justify removing ("What do you mean, I can't research fireball? I watched that guy cast it just yesterday!").
    9 weeks of downtime for one spell just seems excesive.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    9 weeks of downtime for one spell just seems excesive.
    Considering that the spell in question could be Gate? Or Apocalypse from the Sky (not technically, but you get the idea)? Or any other number of world enders? I'm fine with it.

    Now, for lower level, less relevant spells, such as Avoid Planar Effects, or Ray Deflection, or Stone Bones, ok, I might cut the time a little. It IS only a guideline, after all. But if someone is researching a dominant spell like Maw of Chaos, Glitterdust, or Enervation, you get to sit there and spend the time, since they are very very strong effects, and you should have to take a while to make them happen. Of course, this is also subject to the power level of the campaign in question, but that's just assumed.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    I'm a bit confused to as what you're asking... Are you looking to research a toned-down version of levitation to occupy a lower spell slot, or is it that your scroll selection is so restricted that you can't find anywhere to copy Levitation from? If it's the latter, I'm sure your DM can talk to you about your character researching the spell himself (It's certainly not a complicated spell). In that case, I've found that the rules for spell research are unfortunately very limited, and what rules are written in the three core books aren't necessarily that great.

    In my group, we pay a flat gold fee per page of the spell (one page is taken up per level of the spell). It usually takes a couple weeks to research a spell, though a simple, low level spell might only take a day or two.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    9 weeks of downtime for one spell just seems excesive.
    From my point of view, taking a mere 3 months to research a new form of the highest (non-epic, I pretend those don't exist) tier of magic is rather low.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by faceroll View Post
    I'm guessing his access to scrolls is restricted.
    Only the ones I make... and I can't make a scroll of something if I don't have it in my spellbook... and I need a scroll of it to get it into my spellbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    Those are lvl 2 spells.

    You can always just use Alter Self to transform into something that has an actual Fly Speed, not the lame version of fly ie. Levitate.
    1) My bad, typo
    2) No, I can't, if I'm reading the spell correctly. I'm a human, so I can give myself a Swim speed, +6 natural armor, darkvision up to 120 feet, small size, large size (I think), and dark skin. Not all at once, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artemiz View Post
    I'm a bit confused to as what you're asking... Are you looking to research a toned-down version of levitation to occupy a lower spell slot, or is it that your scroll selection is so restricted that you can't find anywhere to copy Levitation from? If it's the latter, I'm sure your DM can talk to you about your character researching the spell himself (It's certainly not a complicated spell). In that case, I've found that the rules for spell research are unfortunately very limited, and what rules are written in the three core books aren't necessarily that great.
    I'm trying to research the Levitation spell presented in the PHB. Yes yes, strictly inferior to Fly, but that's not the point. I may not live to get Fly and Levitate is still extremely useful.

    So far I've come across the opportunity to scribe Melf's Acid Arrow, Comprehend Languages, and something else that I can't remember. Only Comprehend Languages made the cut; however, and even then just because in Ravenloft there are so many languages and we end up going across the borders a lot.

    EDIT: And 2k + 2 weeks is not worth Levitate. Unfortunately I'm going to have to start grubbing for spells a bit because I need to pick up the divination spells to qualify for Loremaster.
    Last edited by Superglucose; 2010-02-23 at 10:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    You can also find a friendly wizard buddy who does know Levitate and see if you can convince him to let you copy it out of his spell book.
    8 hours and a DC 17 Spellcraft check. Bam.
    If there aren't any friendly wizard buddies, find a semi-friendly wizard and start with the Diplomacy.
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    Default Re: Researching Spells

    Quote Originally Posted by absolmorph View Post
    You can also find a friendly wizard buddy who does know Levitate and see if you can convince him to let you copy it out of his spell book.
    8 hours and a DC 17 Spellcraft check. Bam.
    If there aren't any friendly wizard buddies, find a semi-friendly wizard and start with the Diplomacy.
    Ravenloft dude, there's NO one he can call on, almost for certain.

    All that I say applies only to myself. You author your own actions and choices. I cannot and will not be responsible for you, nor are you for me, regardless of situation or circumstance.

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