Caster killers

[faceroll]

In which case you resort to letting the Fly spell get negated temporarily. If you're 50ft up, then it means the AMF is centered on a creature within 10ft of you who either is extremely big or has natural flight. Drop 15ft and then resume flying.

But you get slain by the AoO you provoke as you move through threatened squares.

[Lycanthromancer]

The big challenge is making an anti-magic vs pro-magic fight that isn't automatically "magic wins".

Petition whatever overdeity there is to downgrade to 4e.

Otherwise, magic's already won.

[Optimystik]

I've heard about this tactic but never seen it described, I searched for "mordenkainen's tinfoil hat" and got nothing. Could you point me to something about it?

One 3rd-level core spell is all you need - Shrink Item.

Turn a small enclosure of some kind - like a tent with the flap closed - into your hat. Once an AMF covers your square, it negates your Shrink Item. The tent immediately returns to full size, blocking line of effect from the AMF. You are now free to teleport/dimension door/etc. to safety.

For protection, you can turn any material tent into your hat. Make an adamantine tent - Shrink Item lets you make it feel like cloth. When it returns to full size, you now have an adamantine enclosure between you and the enemy, and all of your spellcasting ability. Though of course, you do not have LoE to him, either.

Unless the wizard is flying. The tinfoil hat only works if you hang out on the ground. Otherwise, you just approach the wizard from below.

a) How are you flying after him when you're in an AMF?

b) Even if you somehow take the sky and catch him - his fly spell fails and he hits the ground, then the hat triggers and LoE is broken anyway. This solves nothing.

But you get slain by the AoO you provoke as you move through threatened squares.

Except that while you're falling, you're inside an adamantine tent until you're outside the AMF again.

[LichPrinceAlim]

I personally can only think of 3:

Occult Slayer (CW or CA)
Arcanopath Monk (DMC)
Mage Slayer (CA or CM)

[Lycanthromancer]

Defeating an AMF even in core is laughably easy - look up Mordenkainen's Tinfoil Hat.

That's "Lycanthromancer's Tinfoil Hat," thank you very much.

I've heard about this tactic but never seen it described, I searched for "mordenkainen's tinfoil hat" and got nothing. Could you point me to something about it?

It was an idea I had: Use shrink item (and possibly permanency if you want something reusable) on a dome or cone (large enough to cover you completely) made of some light, cheap, hard-to-damage material (such as darkwood under the effects of ironwood), and shrink it down to the size of a hat. Wear it. Now you're protected from AMFs completely, and if you have a raven familiar, it can ready actions to protect you from any single-target effect, AoE effect, or, really, anything else that requires line of sight and line of effect. Once you're inside, you can teleport, dimension door, or shapechange into a burrowing creature to get out.

It's also stylish and can be used as a weapon to...ahem...get the drop on foes.

[edit] Ack. Ninja'd.

[Optimystik]

That's "Lycanthromancer's Tinfoil Hat," thank you very much.

Credit given as deserved. *bows deeply*

Also, I can't believe I forgot the Permanency part of that equation. *slaps forehead*

[Lycanthromancer]

Also, the tinfoil hat trick is incredibly cheap for any wizard that didn't ban access to shrink item (and seriously, what in/sane wizard would ban transmutation?). All it costs is one spell slot once every X days and a big dome-shaped piece of something-or-other. You could use colored Saran Wrap and it'd have the same effect, though it'd be a bit harder to stop an ubercharging barbarian with it.

[faceroll]

a) How are you flying after him when you're in an AMF?

Flight's not really that hard to get.

b) Even if you somehow take the sky and catch him - his fly spell fails and he hits the ground, then the hat triggers and LoE is broken anyway. This solves nothing.

Except that while you're falling, you're inside an adamantine tent until you're outside the AMF again.

You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

[Sinfire Titan]

Flight's not really that hard to get.



You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

Where does it ever say that falling provokes an AoO?


Edit: @OP: Do you have a Rogue or other Sneak Attacker in your party?

[arguskos]

Where does it ever say that falling provokes an AoO?

Movement through a threatened square. If you leave my threatened square, by any movement, you provoke. Unless that DOESN'T provoke now, in which case, I'll be really impressed.

[Lycanthromancer]

Flight's not really that hard to get.

Yeah, with magic. There's a bit of a problem here; I'll tell you what that is if you like.

Also note that aberrations, magical beasts, outsiders, plants, fey, monstrous humanoids, oozes, undead, constructs, and dragons are to be slaughtered as well (so no go on the magical mounts, since flyers large enough to carry most Small-and-larger creatures tend to be something other than humanoids, animals, and non-monstrous, mundane vermin).

You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

You have to have perfect maneuverability to fly straight up; otherwise you're going to have a dome of metal or wood between you and the wizard as he falls; meanwhile, as soon as the LoE is blocked (should be within 5-10' of starting the fall), the wizard is good to go again, and can leave with little to-do.

[Optimystik]

You aren't inside anything. You've got a tent above you; your underside is still totally exposed, and that's where I'm approaching you from, that's where you provoke, and that's where I'm burying my lance.

So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

[Lycanthromancer]

How are these antimagic zealots planning on killing all of the infinite outsiders on all of the infinite planes spanning the multiverse?

After all, a great many of them have plane shift, and are fully capable of taking on a good chunk of the Material Plane all by themselves.

Also, what about greater artifacts? And gods? And overdeities? I'm sure Ao would have something to say if these people started (somehow) getting the upper hand, and unbalancing the homeostasis of the cosmos.

[LichPrinceAlim]

How are these antimagic zealots planning on killing all of the infinite outsiders on all of the infinite planes spanning the multiverse?

After all, a great many of them have plane shift, and are fully capable of taking on a good chunk of the Material Plane all by themselves.

Also, what about greater artifacts? And gods?

My two cents:

Race: Neraph Death Knight
Class: Monk 5/Arcanopath Monk 10/ Occult Slayer 5
Feat: Mage Slayer

[Sinfire Titan]

So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

All you need is Good and Improved Maneuverability (Draconomicon, good luck qualifying).

[faceroll]

Also note that aberrations, magical beasts, outsiders, plants, fey, monstrous humanoids, oozes, undead, constructs, and dragons are to be slaughtered as well (so no go on the magical mounts, since flyers large enough to carry most Small-and-larger creatures tend to be something other than humanoids, animals, and non-monstrous, mundane vermin).

Um, what.

So you have Ex Perfect Maneuverability flight without being incorporeal? Do share your secret.

Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

[Sinfire Titan]

Um, what.



Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

If it's a Paladin, I've got bad news for you. If it's a Prestige Paladin, I've got even worse news for you.


If it's the Wild Cohort feat, a Druid's Animal Companion, or simply a purchased beast, I've got Good News, Bad News, and Vin Diesel.

[faceroll]

If it's a Paladin, I've got bad news for you. If it's a Prestige Paladin, I've got even worse news for you.


If it's the Wild Cohort feat, a Druid's Animal Companion, or simply a purchased beast, I've got Good News, Bad News, and Vin Diesel.

Who said anything about class features?
Look, the hat trick is neat, but it has a big hole in it if you are flying and an enemy with an AMF up can fly up to it. Can every creature in existence do so? No, some creatures don't fly. Can every flying creature do so? No, some flying creatures can't fly in an AMF because they have magical flight. Can every creature with non-magical flight fly up to it? No, not every creature has perfect maneuverability. Are there ways to gain non-magical flight with perfect maneuverability? Yes.

It's pretty simple.

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 templates that give you good flight maneuverability- winged, half-fey and half-celestial. I am sure there are plenty more. Then you just pick up the feat that bumps your maneuverability up to perfect.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

[Optimystik]

Arcanopath Monk

You realize that almost all of his abilities are (Su), right?
(They also suck, but given that they're monks...)

Templates.
Mounts.
Feats.
Mounts with templates.
Mounts with feats.

Almost forgot; mounts with templates AND feats.

I already covered that dragons can make good use of an AMF. If they have one at their disposal, great, but then you're a wee bit over-CRed anyway.

[Sinfire Titan]

Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 templates that give you good flight maneuverability- winged, half-fey and half-celestial. I am sure there are plenty more. Then you just pick up the feat that bumps your maneuverability up to perfect.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.


And Boots of Striding and Springing won't work.

[Tyndmyr]

Not sure if you are allowing homebrew but if you are, have you looked at Lord Gareth's Voidblade Eliminator? It has a lot of stuff that might help.

Not generally. There is one homebrewed alternate class feature for rogue(extra skill bonuses instead of sneak attack. Someone wanted it...not particularily powerful), and one homebrewed template.

Downgrading to 4e would be...not well received. We tried 4e before this, and it was universally regarding as mostly boring. There's really just no way to translate fairly high optimization 3.5 play to 4e.

How they plan to kill all the outsiders, greater artifacts, and the gods themselves is an excellent question, and hasn't been brought up yet. Presumably artifacts can be somehow destroyed, even if it takes rather drastic measures(hurling it into the sun, say), but at a minimum, they can be removed from earth. How you can reasonably get rid of a sphere of annihilation is a rather big problem, though. It's not as if hitting it is a winning plan. Gods can be at least weakened by killing their priests and followers. Well, save for overdieties. Not much to be done about that.

[faceroll]

I already covered that dragons can make good use of an AMF. If they have one at their disposal, great, but then you're a wee bit over-CRed anyway.

Dragons are a poor choice because they are clumsy fliers. Dragons really can't make that great of use of an AMF. A guy with an AMF on a large half-celestial quadreped (with the improved flying feat, can't remember it's name) could make good use of the AMF.

As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.


And Boots of Striding and Springing won't work.

1. You are making up rules.
2. 120 feet fly is easy, anyway. 200 is a little harder, but still very doable. Half celestial or half fey template on anything with 60 ft move.

[Optimystik]

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you guys.

Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

[arguskos]

All you need is Good and Improved Maneuverability (Draconomicon, good luck qualifying).

Also, Imp. Maneuverability can't improve past Good. Just checked.

[faceroll]

Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

How ironic.

Also, Imp. Maneuverability can't improve past Good. Just checked.

RotW, Improved Flight. Requires you have a natural fly speed, and improves your maneuverability 1 category. No caveats.

Unless there's errata out there for it.

[Sinfire Titan]

Protip: check your facts before getting snarky with other people.

Quoted for Truthery. Check this out:

IMPROVED MANEUVERABILITY [GENERAL]
Your maneuverability in flight improves.
Prerequisites: Fly speed 150 feet, Hover or Wingover.
Benefit: Your maneuverability improves by one category,
from clumsy to poor, poor to average, or average to good
(see Tactical Aerial Movement, page 20 of the Dungeon
Master’s Guide).
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time
you take the feat, your maneuverability improves by one category
(but never becomes better than good).

[Lycanthromancer]

Um, what.

Their goal is to destroy ALL magic. And the only things that either aren't the result of magic or have magic of their own are humanoids (though gnomes are toast), animals, and vermin.

Constructs? Created via magic.
Dragons? Inherently magical creatures.
Outsiders? Magical.
Oozes? Never heard of nonmagical flying jelly outside of a food fight.
Aberrations? Unnatural abominations against nature. Kill them all.
Fey? Uh...no. Few things are more magical than even the most mundane fey.
Plants? The only plants not infused with magic are mundane, non-animate ones. Hard to ride something that stays in one spot. I could make a knothole joke here, but I'm sure you can manage without me.
Monstrous humanoids? Critters that are humanoids magically fused with other monstrous creatures (and generally have magic of their own).
Undead? With their supernatural connection to the negative energy plane and (often) huge number of magical abilities to help them devour living things? I think not.

Ergo, you're kind of limited in your choices for mounts to use.

[edit] Also, you're rather limited on your choices of character class. Even monks get Su abilities. And most of those classes are lucky to hit Tier 3.

[Tyndmyr]

Master Rahl guide us?

Amusingly enough, this idea did originally stem from people being introduced to the sword of truth books. The world isn't the same as there, obviously, and some things, such as confessors, don't translate well, but the anti-magic army is strongly based on the order/blood of the fold.

[faceroll]

Their goal is to destroy ALL magic.

With the caveat that they're willing to use magic to destroy it.

Quoted for Truthery. Check this out:

Wrong feat, bro.
Though with those two feats, you can have anything with perfect fly speed, as long as you can get 150' move (not hard at all).

[edit] Also, you're rather limited on your choices of character class. Even monks get Su abilities. And most of those classes are lucky to hit Tier 3.

Wait, what?
You keep making up stuff that wasn't in the OP. Tyndmyr even said stuff about using enslaved wizards to fight wizards. Now we can't have any classes that use Su abilities, period? Maybe you should start a new thread?

Anyway, ToB classes. Only what, 2 disciplines use a lot of Su? Even the shadow hand teleportation effects are Ex, which is sweet. You don't even need to fly to get up close and nasty with that wizard while in your amf.

[Eldariel]

As I said, got news for you: That feat requires a base Fly speed of 120ft or higher (or was it 200ft?). No template in existence gives a Fly speed that fast without massive Monk levels being involved.

There are templates giving you twice your landspeed (which you can easily get to 60' with e.g. Barbarian, Fist of the Forests-dips and Fleet of Foot) as flight speed. E.g. Half-Fey or Winged creature.

And Complete Adventurer contains Improved Flight which is Improved Manoeuvrability without prerequisites other than Fly-speed. Eh, I don't really see this being the lynchpoint. Though of course, restricting the characters to few races sucks.


Though a bought mount, e.g. Dragonhawk (120' flight speed; Psychic Reformations get it two Improved Flights), should be able to fly that fast easily.