Save-less Direct Damage spells and you

[nxwtypx]

It's always been of interest of me that Ice Storm lacks a saving throw for it's fixed 5d6 damage output.

So with that precedent, what's the math?

A 4th level spell doing only electricity damage, single target, no save - how much would that deal?
Or would single-target no-save be broken without Ice Storm's guarantee of party collateral damage?

A higher level version of Ice Storm would deal how much more as we increase the level?

Tell me what you think.

[arguskos]

WotC already did it for you. Check the Spell Compendium for the Orb line of spells (Sor/Wiz 4, ranged touch, single target, no save/SR, does 1d6 energy, max 15d6, has a rider effect based on the energy type).

[Eurus]

I loathe saveless damage spells, because it's too easy to just eradicate anything that's not outright immune with a 95% success rate. Seeing someone metamagic up a Hail of Stone (no save, no SR, no attack roll) until it's capable of mulching a dragon is just depressing.

Regardless... based on precedent, Ice Storm is actually relatively weak for damage, and too short-lived for effective battlefield control. Look up the aforementioned Hail of Stone spell, it's a 1st level slot that caps out at (IIRC) 5d4 damage, all of it non-elemental. It's almost single-target, though; I think it's a 5-foot radius burst.

[Drolyt]

It's always been of interest of me that Ice Storm lacks a saving throw for it's fixed 5d6 damage output.

So with that precedent, what's the math?

A 4th level spell doing only electricity damage, single target, no save - how much would that deal?
Or would single-target no-save be broken without Ice Storm's guarantee of party collateral damage?

A higher level version of Ice Storm would deal how much more as we increase the level?

Tell me what you think.

Maximized Magic Missile? Deal's at 7th level, 20 damage. 5d6 on average is 17.5. So yeah I'm gonna say a single target no save dealing 5d6 would be pretty fair. Try out Chain Missile. It creates up to 10 magic missiles which all strike a single target for 10d4+10 with no save at 20th level, and it's a 3rd level spell. Even without metamagic reducers you can empower and twin it for a total of 30d4+30, or on average 105 damage no save, and it targets up to 30 secondary targets. Orb of Force is a touch attack that doesn't even allow spell resistance for 1d6/level max ten. Without metamagic reducers the best you can really do is max and empower, for 60 + 5d6, not that good. I think with metamagic reducers though someone got the orb spells to deal like 500 damage, I don't remember all the stupid metamagic feats they stacked. Probably required one of the elemental orbs though.

[Artemiz]

WotC already did it for you. Check the Spell Compendium for the Orb line of spells (Sor/Wiz 4, ranged touch, single target, no save/SR, does 1d6 energy, max 15d6, has a rider effect based on the energy type).

This.

As a side note, the SC is easily the coolest, most useful supplement for any player who enjoys casters. The thing is, it makes casters' spells REALLY potent.

[TheNiGhtAnGel]

One of my favorite books back when I ran alot of casters.

[GoC]

I loathe saveless damage spells, because it's too easy to just eradicate anything that's not outright immune with a 95% success rate. Seeing someone metamagic up a Hail of Stone (no save, no SR, no attack roll) until it's capable of mulching a dragon is just depressing.

How was that done?
It caps at 5d4 damage so even twinned, empowered and maximized it'd only do 60 damage.

[Drolyt]

How was that done?
It caps at 5d4 damage so even twinned, empowered and maximized it'd only do 60 damage.

Twinned, Empowered, Energy Admixtured, Maximized, Quickened, some other stupid metamagic feats, what's that one that made it repeat in the next round?

[Artemiz]

Twinned, Empowered, Energy Admixtured, Maximized, Quickened, some other stupid metamagic feats, what's that one that made it repeat in the next round?

He's right, you can really get spells like that up there.

[arguskos]

Twinned, Empowered, Energy Admixtured, Maximized, Quickened, some other stupid metamagic feats, what's that one that made it repeat in the next round?

The one that makes it repeat is called, uninventively, Repeat Spell. Also, you can't Admix Hail of Stone, it's not an energy spell.

[Drolyt]

The one that makes it repeat is called, uninventively, Repeat Spell. Also, you can't Admix Hail of Stone, it's not an energy spell.

Wasn't paying attention. The Orb Spells are better for that anyways, ignore Spell Resistance and a touch attack might as well be an auto hit.

[arguskos]

Wasn't paying attention. The Orb Spells are better for that anyways, ignore Spell Resistance and a touch attack might as well be an auto hit.

Oh yes, no disagreeing with that one. Just pointing out that Admix has a somewhat limited subset it can be applied to. I've seen someone attempt to Admix an Orb of Force before too.

[Drolyt]

Oh yes, no disagreeing with that one. Just pointing out that Admix has a somewhat limited subset it can be applied to. I've seen someone attempt to Admix an Orb of Force before too.

Admixed Orb of Force? That would actually be awesome. I bet V would do that.

[arguskos]

Admixed Orb of Force? That would actually be awesome. I bet V would do that.

It... but... does not function! Force is not an energy descriptor! You people and your misuse of Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture, you are my bane, you are!

[Drolyt]

It... but... does not function! Force is not an energy descriptor! You people and your misuse of Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture, you are my bane, you are!

So what if it doesn't technically work, homebrew a spell that does. Xykon's maxed energy drain is far worse cheese (though it should actually be empowered for maximum benefit). Actually I think with that shadow whatever PRC along with a good helping of cheese you can get a maximized energy drain pre epic.

[arguskos]

So what if it doesn't technically work, homebrew a spell that does. Xykon's maxed energy drain is far worse cheese (though it should actually be empowered for maximum benefit). Actually I think with that shadow whatever PRC along with a good helping of cheese you can get a maximized energy drain pre epic.

That's not all that hard actually. And honestly, no, a Maximized Energy Drain is weak tea compared to a Quickened Admixed Twinned Repeating Invisible Sanctum Maximized Split Orb of Screaming Fiery Doom. I mean, a Maxed ED is 8 negative levels. Your average Orb of Screaming Fiery Doom is doing... let's see... ((15d6+15d6)x4)x2, maxed. That works out to... 1,440 damage (30d6=180, 180x8=1,440). I think that's SIGNIFICANTLY scarier than anything Energy Drain could ever produce. Note that the above Orb is produceable by level 20 with only a single prestige class and a lot of feats.

As for brewing, yeah, sure, I'm all sorts of on board with that (my largish number of Base Classes should be proof I like homebrewing stuff, as is the fact that I brew stuff ALL THE TIME for my campaigns). However, as written, it doesn't work. What point in having rules if we're just going to ignore them all the time? Either do it right, or brew something that works and get your DM to approve it (either is good, btw). Otherwise, go play Pretend.

EDIT: Note that I am NOT advocating insanity like the above Orb of OMGWTFBBQness. Just saying that Maximixed Energy Drain isn't cheese, hell, it's not even that GOOD.

[Drolyt]

That's not all that hard actually. And honestly, no, a Maximized Energy Drain is weak tea compared to a Quickened Admixed Twinned Repeating Invisible Sanctum Maximized Split Orb of Screaming Fiery Doom. I mean, a Maxed ED is 8 negative levels. Your average Orb of Screaming Fiery Doom is doing... let's see... ((15d6+15d6)x4)x2, maxed. That works out to... 1,440 damage (30d6=180, 180x8=1,440). I think that's SIGNIFICANTLY scarier than anything Energy Drain could ever produce. Note that the above Orb is produceable by level 20 with only a single prestige class and a lot of feats.

As for brewing, yeah, sure, I'm all sorts of on board with that (my largish number of Base Classes should be proof I like homebrewing stuff, as is the fact that I brew stuff ALL THE TIME for my campaigns). However, as written, it doesn't work. What point in having rules if we're just going to ignore them all the time? Either do it right, or brew something that works and get your DM to approve it (either is good, btw). Otherwise, go play Pretend.

EDIT: Note that I am NOT advocating insanity like the above Orb of OMGWTFBBQness. Just saying that Maximixed Energy Drain isn't cheese, hell, it's not even that GOOD.

It's all crap. Any decent wizard or cleric is immune to all energy damage and most likely negative levels. At any rate wouldn't a maximized energy drain drop all your 9th level spells if you got hit by it? Whatever, I prefer IoftSV.