[3.5] We need a Cleric! Ohh well, time to draw straws

[mikej]

Ohh hai

After a long msn conversation with one of my buddies, I remembered the old D&D fault of nobody wants to heal anybody. It was a discussion on what the bets are that the real life players would play in the next campaign. We both agreed that nobody would play the Cleric willingly. Which lead me to think of this topic. I know a few lurk here on these forums soo I'd like say I'm not bashing anymore but I'll put up a spoiler tag regardless.

Spoiler

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Our group from my generally observation tend to be more damage dealing focus. It's problematic as if one would pull out ahead in damage the rest would be useless. It's rare to see a focused support character ( unless it's me ), or a good Cleric ( that's usually my online msn/buddy. although doesn't play directly anymore ), he's played the DMM: Persist version. Soo it's not that they're not good. Cleric is one of the best classes in 3.5 edition.

edit: I can't really judge them or other players. I was obsessed once with rolling dozens of d6's. Afterwards, one of my strongest characters never rolled a single dice of damage. Just debuff with rays and Glitterdust. Often persist buffed the melee char and sat in the back drinking tea.

It's just does every group have this problem? Often hear jokes ( the one mentioned in the title ) but I'm just curious. Nothing about my group just other groups in general.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Yes, the rest of my group seems to despise playing anything that doesn't allow tossing huge amounts of damage dice. I'm the only one in the group who's ever played a Cleric, and I once played a Sorc who was part damage but part debuffing (classics like Glitterdust, of course.) The only other character who was remotely possible of healing was a Paladin, and he was more focused on attacking as well, pretty much only healing when absolutely needed or after the battle.

However, one person other than me did figure out that Wizards have better things to do than spam Evocations. He turned on the party petrified one, sent another to another plane, and left the other one unharmed (but still paralyzed from the Mass Hold Person he cast on them). He did that with Prismatic Spray. And then he was promptly slaughtered by the Solar that had been watching the events and was pissed that the Paladin was nearly killed. So yeah.

[Sinfire Titan]

Clerics can be very powerful characters. Healbot Clerics are not an example.


Your healing should be done post-combat; healing during combat is usually a waste of actions.

[Vizzerdrix]

My group didn't have this problem. Mainly because most of us would run with Healer's belts (sometimes several), And I'd always tell them that if it was presumed that I was going to be the Band Aid, that I'd start charging for it. Temples do need donations after all.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

+1

Clerics rock!

The only time I encountered this was from people who thought somebody spamming clw in combat was a necessary role. They were easily the most useless member of the group followed by the vanilla tank; the other three being straight druid, feral barbarian/berzerker and a bard/warblade/jade phoenix mage. They whined and whined and claimed the group owed them for playing a cleric and that the party owed their character for ineffectual heals (under 50 per turn) more that it owed the buffer for adding 15 or so damage to the feral multiattackers 6 attacks, the wildshaped to fleshraker druid's 5 attacks and the fleshraker animal companions 5 attacks and the vannilla tanks 3. Oh, and the bard was casting close wounds liberally.

/rant

you have havy armor if you want a good weapon you can get it through the war domain, you can self buff till you out damage and hit and AC tank classes. You have battlefield control spells not as good as the wizard but, still good. Close wounds is a great spell once you hit lvl 8-9 and 2nd lvl spells are pretty much a non resource. it is a swift action close range heal for 1d4+CL and it prevents death and unconsciousness if you cast it imeadiatly after a hit and it brings your target above -10 or 0.

This isn't even approaching optimization with tricks like Divine Meta magic and classes like church inquisitor.

[Ormur]

Well a party I DM for didn't have a healer but there were only three of them and I know they've all happily played clerics so that wasn't the issue. I just let the unarmed VoP swordsage take a Healer cohort. It can't do anything but heal in combat and the player also gets to melee.

[Tyrmatt]

I play Cleric a bit but we never get to high levels so I'm rarely CODzilla. I have nothing against healing but then I also get to be the roleplaying face of the party most of the time which keeps me occupied. That and I can still help flank and bust out the big guns when it matters.

Then again, healer just became my defacto role in almost any RPG. In the MMOs I played, I was always a character with healing. Usually not the most potent type of healer, but one who could be counted on for sheer versatility. My playing of druid in WoW allowed me and two friends to effectively 3 man a large number of challenges that should've taken a full party or more with some careful planning, cunning and a whole lotta abuse of the dodge mechanics.

[Volkov]

Remind them of the spells flame strike and fire storm. They'll want to be a cleric soon enough.

[onthetown]

I enjoy playing Clerics but it's hard to in the campaign I'm playing... they don't get as much "screen time" as the other classes. I found a lot less opportunity for roleplaying with my first one, and I ended up being so frustrated by her that I happily let her be killed off for the sake of story and the DM took up a Cleric until we got another one.

To remedy the previous situation, I created an evil drow priestess of Lolth Cleric. She was more interesting and got a lot more time than the other one, but still not as much as the other classes. That said, I never got frustrated with her and I played her right to epic. She only recently got killed off, for the sake of story as well (she was evil, after all, and the characters didn't exactly trust her... but she was retired so I'm fine with it).

I guess I'll play a Cleric if I'm able to make her interesting to the other players enough that they want to interact with her. Otherwise she just ends up being another character sheet on a pile... I'm becoming rather infamous for having way too many characters, but they're all worth playing when the situation needs them. The first Cleric? I avoid her like the plague.

I think it's a matter of just making them stand out a little more in the group. Also, it doesn't help that they can pull off spells that threaten the other classes' contribution. I've seen Flamestrike end a battle in one turn; the Wizard was not happy with having the blasting taken over by the healer.

[Tyndmyr]

You don't NEED a cleric. You need healing. The two are very, very different.

Healing, for example, can be cheaply picked up as wands or belts of healing. If you start at level 1, you may want a pot or two to get you to that point.

[Starbuck_II]

Clerics can be very powerful characters. Healbot Clerics are not an example.


Your healing should be done post-combat; healing during combat is usually a waste of actions.

There are exceptions: like is there is a glass cannon type character (huge hps, but low AC) so hit for alot (power attack). They can get pretty hurt and likely die without a Cure here and there.

But yeah, most healing should be in finale.

[Vizzerdrix]

You don't NEED a cleric. You need healing. The two are very, very different.

Healing, for example, can be cheaply picked up as wands or belts of healing. If you start at level 1, you may want a pot or two to get you to that point.

Also, anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can make healing items as well.

[Optimystik]

I like healing with Eldritch Disciple. I can zap the entire party with a healing Eldritch Cone or Eldritch Chain a few times per battle, even more with some Nightsticks. And I can still cast Heal, the Vigor line, Recitation etc.

The funniest part is that Hellfire Warlock can boost my healing to crazy levels. "Accept Hell's healing power!"

[Fitz]

ok couple of points here.

1: not all games allow buying of lots of helaing belts , wands etc. depends on the setting.
2: it takes a mindset change to get away from the first aid-kit cleric. and if the whole party is like that it is harder as you are contantly expected to just heal (had complaints for wasting spells that could be used to heal party members before : spells in question Slay living(death domain) and dismissal..both of which ended the fight)

as usual out of character diplomacy might help here, at various points the party will need some magical healing (unless you are prepared to have the party slowly heal naturally!) there are various ways to do this, however the game should be fun for everyone. So the party needs to let the Cleric player feel they do more than just "bandage the real heroes". Also it helps to get away from the party mindset that value is only in damage done in hit points.

Fitz

[Tyndmyr]

Also, anyone with ranks in Craft: Alchemy can make healing items as well.

Oh yeah, that's hardly an exaustive list. Find some way to get a cure spell added to someone's spell list. Play warforged, and have the arcanist use Repair. Hire a cleric chump to follow you around and heal, as per the DMG rules. Pay for a pre-adventure casting of vigor or lesser vigor, then persist/extend it.

There are a ridiculous number of ways to get healing outside of a PC-run healbot. If nobody WANTS to run a healbot, find one or more of those ways and use them. Any of them is superior to making someone play a char he dislikes.

[Sinfire Titan]

ok couple of points here.

1: not all games allow buying of lots of helaing belts , wands etc. depends on the setting.

DMs who deny players items are all ready bad in my book. DMs who deny players Core healing items are far worse.

2: it takes a mindset change to get away from the first aid-kit cleric. and if the whole party is like that it is harder as you are contantly expected to just heal (had complaints for wasting spells that could be used to heal party members before : spells in question Slay living(death domain) and dismissal..both of which ended the fight)

This is where optimization comes into play. If one player starts optimizing, the encounters will be slightly easier until the rest of the party realizes it. If they don't, then have the optimizer stop contributing for a few encounters. The rest of the table should notice the difficulty spike fairly quickly.



No party needs a Cleric to heal. We've known this for years, it just took OW4 to actually say it.

[unre9istered]

I've played several games with no cleric. One game I played was a fighter/scout/dervish, a Vassal of Bahamut Paladin, and a Sorcerer/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. The Magus did 90% of the healing with wands and at higher levels scrolls of Heal. When the paladin did actually heal, he used wands too.

[Grumman]

Two ways I like of providing healing without a conventional healer:

(Warforged) Crusader 5 / Hellreaver 5 / Binder 1 / Crusader +9 w/Extra Granted Maneuver
A tank that can heal people while beating people up, indefinitely. You have the best three Devoted Spirit healing maneuvers, Martial Spirit, and the ability to heal people for 20 points of damage every round as a swift action.

Trickster Spellthief 2 / Wizard 3 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Wizard PrC 5 w/Master Spellthief
Since the Trickster Spellthief variant can pick spells off the Bard spell list, this lets you convert any 1st level spell slot possessed by an ally into a Cure Light Wounds, or a 2nd level spell slot into Cure Moderate Wounds. Oh, and you've got 18/20 wizard spellcasting.

[Lin Bayaseda]

Want to be useful in combat? Take War/Strength domains. You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, and Feat of Strength (STR +1/level). Around level 3, your attack bonus will be only -1 compared to the fighter, and that even w/o buffs. With buffs, you can actually be a betterdamage-dealer that a fighter in a critical encounter. Also, the fighter doesn't have any Plan B beyond bashing really hard. You, on the other hand, have Plan B (Hold Person), Plan C (Sound Burst), and an emergency exit (Sanctuary/Obscuring Mist).

The ability to heal post-encounter is a nice bonus too. Or, if you want something entirely different, take a Pirate Cleric. Trickery and Travel domains. Gets Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door and other cool stuff.

[Flickerdart]

DFA can heal for free (up to half HP). If you're Undead or take Tomb Tainted Soul, Dread Necromancer makes infinite, free healing. Likewise, a dip in Shadow Sun Ninja also makes free healing with at least one Undead/TTS in the party. Summoning Unicorns and other stuff gets you healing, too.

[Os1ris09]

I like healing with Eldritch Disciple. I can zap the entire party with a healing Eldritch Cone or Eldritch Chain a few times per battle, even more with some Nightsticks. And I can still cast Heal, the Vigor line, Recitation etc.

The funniest part is that Hellfire Warlock can boost my healing to crazy levels. "Accept Hell's healing power!"

I agree completely with this. I love that ability. I shoot my ally and heal them THEN I shoot my enemy and hurt them. LOLz at every DM that goes "Wwwhaaa????"

[Sinfire Titan]

I agree completely with this. I love that ability. I shoot my ally and heal them THEN I shoot my enemy and hurt them. LOLz at every DM that goes "Wwwhaaa????"

Just like a Shadowsun Ninja.

[Indon]

After a long msn conversation with one of my buddies, I remembered the old D&D fault of nobody wants to heal anybody. It was a discussion on what the bets are that the real life players would play in the next campaign. We both agreed that nobody would play the Cleric willingly. Which lead me to think of this topic. I know a few lurk here on these forums soo I'd like say I'm not bashing anymore but I'll put up a spoiler tag regardless.

This was actually a fairly prominent problem in AD&D, that 3rd edition tried to fix - and ended up grossly overcompensating for.

Basically, 3rd edition changed clerics so they could be front-line fighters as well as healers. The problem is, they turned out capable of being better front-line fighters than the standard ones, with a bit of optimization, and they could heal in addition to that.

So in 3.5 you can just have your cleric character optimize a bit and he'll deal damage comparable with other meleers easily, while still being able to heal.

[Curmudgeon]

Want to be useful in combat? Take War/Strength domains. You get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, and Feat of Strength (STR +1/level). Around level 3, your attack bonus will be only -1 compared to the fighter, and that even w/o buffs. With buffs, you can actually be a betterdamage-dealer that a fighter in a critical encounter.

Yes, you can be a better damage dealer than a Fighter, but those domains aren't good choices to effect that goal. Start with the Cloistered Cleric variant, with Knowledge as an extra domain. Knowledge can be traded in for the Knowledge Devotion feat, and the Cloistered Cleric's skill points make this a bonus to hit and damage everything. Travel can be traded in for the Travel Devotion feat. Add in the Divine Power spell and your Cleric will hit more often than the Fighter, get full attacks nearly all the time yet still have decent mobility, and do more damage.

Oh, and Clerics can have the best AC, too. Robes (part of the scholar's outfit) can have an armor bonus (Magic Item Compendium, page 234); the Magic Vestment spell can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of that; and since there's no actual armor involved, you can add a Monk's Belt for (1 + WIS mod) more AC!

[Sliver]

Sounds kinda like a spiritual, traveling, competent monk.. That can use weapons..

[Grumman]

Knowledge can be traded in for the Knowledge Devotion feat, and the Cloistered Cleric's skill points make this a bonus to hit and damage everything.

If you trade in the Knowledge domain you no longer have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

[Sinfire Titan]

If you trade in the Knowledge domain you no longer have all Knowledge skills as class skills.

You get one back. You don't need Knowledge Nature all that much. The important ones are:

Religion (got it)
Arcana
Local
Dungeoneering


And one other. If your DM doesn't throw humanoid NPCs at you that often, you can simply dump Local.

[Emmerask]

It's just does every group have this problem? Often hear jokes ( the one mentioned in the title ) but I'm just curious. Nothing about my group just other groups in general.

Hm, in my current group we have actually 3 out of 5 people who can heal
2 clerics 1 druid well if you count the paladin then its 4 but he can´t really heal much. Having so many possible healer types does decrease the issue of "don´t cast we might need a cure/heal spell later" ^^

[Sliver]

Hm, in my current group we have actually 3 out of 5 people who can heal
2 clerics 1 druid well if you count the paladin then its 4 but he can´t really heal much. Having so many possible healer types does decrease the issue of "don´t cast we might need a cure/heal spell later" ^^

A paladin can use a CLW wand just fine..

[MlleRouge]

Cleric is my personal favorite class, and DMM: Persist clerics are very popular in general in my group. They heal fine too, even if you're running a negative energy cleric. Not as good as a Radiant Servant or whatnot, but still fine. At least we haven't had any problems. I guess it's not for everyone, though.

Support clerics aren't as popular (among us) as DMM or otherwise melee focused ones, though. Though, in one recent module we played, we had so many clerics/other classes interested in healing and support that a lot of us stayed bored most of the time. I for one eventually got bored and started being offensive with my druid instead of healing/buffing/grappling like I had been before, since there were 2 clerics trying to do the same thing.

I think that was more of a fluke than anything though; a couple people who normally play all out offense tried to fill the battlefield controller role. They just decided to do it at the same time. I'd chosen to be a battlefield controller because I assumed no one else would It was very odd, but worked out all right once we settled on who was doing what. I guess it's worth noting that we didn't have much opportunity to discuss roles and whatnot before the game actually began, since several players changed characters at the last minute.


<3 clerics