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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Psionic artificer.

    I'm... not seeing what's so awesome about it.

    Anyone want to help out?
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    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
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    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Has someone said there is something awesome about it?

    Can you ask them why they said so?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Has someone said there is something awesome about it?

    Can you ask them why they said so?
    I've seen references to Psionic Artificer being better than Tier 1, though I forget where.
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    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Has someone said there is something awesome about it?

    Can you ask them why they said so?
    1: Me and anyone in the Tiers thread on BG.

    2: Yes.

    The reason it is so powerful is that it doesn't lose access to spell-based magic items. What prevented the Artificer from crafting Psionic Items in the first place was the Psionic/Magic Transparency. It doesn't extend to feats as written, meaning the Artificer couldn't craft Psionic Items. The variant in Magic of Eberron barely affects their ability to craft normal magic items while giving them access to Psionic Powers to abuse the action economy with (even more than normal).

    The reason it is so powerful is because it gets these items so much sooner than other classes get access to the powers/spells needed to make those items. Imagine Spell to Power, but with no level restrictions and everything is given to you 2 levels earlier without an actual XP cost (unless you want to).

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    1: Me and anyone in the Tiers thread on BG.

    2: Yes.

    The reason it is so powerful is that it doesn't lose access to spell-based magic items. What prevented the Artificer from crafting Psionic Items in the first place was the Psionic/Magic Transparency. It doesn't extend to feats as written, meaning the Artificer couldn't craft Psionic Items. The variant in Magic of Eberron barely affects their ability to craft normal magic items while giving them access to Psionic Powers to abuse the action economy with (even more than normal).

    The reason it is so powerful is because it gets these items so much sooner than other classes get access to the powers/spells needed to make those items. Imagine Spell to Power, but with no level restrictions and everything is given to you 2 levels earlier without an actual XP cost (unless you want to).
    Why doesn't it affect their ability to craft normal magic items? All the relevant class features are removed, aren't they?
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    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
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    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  6. - Top - End - #6

    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Why doesn't it affect their ability to craft normal magic items? All the relevant class features are removed, aren't they?
    No, just slightly altered to include Psionics without giving up enough to make the trade-off a hard choice.



    I wish we had a Head Desk smiley like BG does. Because it's really appropriate right now.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    No, just slightly altered to include Psionics without giving up enough to make the trade-off a hard choice.



    I wish we had a Head Desk smiley like BG does. Because it's really appropriate right now.
    Hey, don't belittle me. A Psionic Artificer loses UMD and the ability to emulate spells when creating items. They also lose most of their abilities that apply to magic. Now, IIRC Spells > Psionics, so how is a Psionic Artificer more powerful?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  8. - Top - End - #8

    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    Hey, don't belittle me. A Psionic Artificer loses UMD and the ability to emulate spells when creating items. They also lose most of their abilities that apply to magic. Now, IIRC Spells > Psionics, so how is a Psionic Artificer more powerful?
    Not trying to belittle you. And I'm AFB right now myself, so I can't really check. What I do know is that the Action Economy is easier to abuse if the class is Psionic in nature, and I know that the base Artificer has severe broken as is. Logically, a combination of the two can only get worse. I know Psionics is not as powerful as Vanican casting, but I know the PsiArti has a gimic that negates that weakness.


    Also, the MiC applied errata to the Transparency rules: Craft Psionic X is equal in all respects to Craft Magic X. Even if the PsiArti can't duplicate the exact spell, all he has to do is find a Psionic analogue or use Bend Reality (can be done at 11th level).

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Not trying to belittle you. And I'm AFB right now myself, so I can't really check. What I do know is that the Action Economy is easier to abuse if the class is Psionic in nature, and I know that the base Artificer has severe broken as is. Logically, a combination of the two can only get worse. I know Psionics is not as powerful as Vanican casting, but I know the PsiArti has a gimic that negates that weakness.


    Also, the MiC applied errata to the Transparency rules: Craft Psionic X is equal in all respects to Craft Magic X. Even if the PsiArti can't duplicate the exact spell, all he has to do is find a Psionic analogue or use Bend Reality (can be done at 11th level).
    I see. Badly worded errata that allows psionics to imitate magic but not vice versa.

    This makes sense.
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    Your Tainted Scholar builds look fun, but I'm lactose intolerant
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're just trying to get more people into your sig, aren't you
    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Seeing TO by Magic9Mushroom is like seeing a movie with Joss Wheaton as director... you know that it's worth watching, even if you do want to strangle the bastard by the time you're done with it.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Nate the Snake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by magic9mushroom View Post
    I see. Badly worded errata that allows psionics to imitate magic but not vice versa.
    To be fair, the errata specifies that psionics can't imitate everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by MIC, Psionics and Crafting Magic Items
    The prerequisites of some items have no psionic equivalent, and so cannot be created by a psionic character without the aid of a character who does meet the requirement.
    Granted, the example given was eldritch blast, but the point remains.

    It's not so much the feat transparency that's the problem (only two, and they're the generic ones), it's the conversion of prerequisites. A pyrokineticist can be allowed to make a flaming longsword for the party fighter using energy burst instead of fireball without causing problems, and a telepath can make a helm of telepathy using mindlink instead of telepathic bond. The trouble starts when the psi-crafter starts churning out weapons of speed because psionics has no equivalent of haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Even if the PsiArti can't duplicate the exact spell, all he has to do is find a Psionic analogue or use Bend Reality (can be done at 11th level).
    I'm not convinced that bend reality can even duplicate spells, let alone circumvent spell requirements. As written, it only duplicates powers, and spells are not powers. Transparency doesn't extend that far, unless my interpretation of the text is more conservative than the standard interpretation.
    SnakePirate avatar by CheesePirate

    Running Emerald City Knights (OOC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
    Translation: when Bahamut called "Dibs!" on your soul the devils sat back down, muttering under their breaths.
    Quote Originally Posted by TricksyAndFalse View Post
    4E Druids tap into the Primal Beast to wild shape. The Primal Beast cares not for your technicalities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

  11. - Top - End - #11

    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate the Snake View Post
    I'm not convinced that bend reality can even duplicate spells, let alone circumvent spell requirements. As written, it only duplicates powers, and spells are not powers. Transparency doesn't extend that far, unless my interpretation of the text is more conservative than the standard interpretation.
    Spells are fair game for Powers:

    Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

    So a 3rd level spell is fair game for Bend Reality (Transmutation's analogue is Psychometabolism, so Egoists can duplicate it easier).

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Nate the Snake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Psionic artificer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfire Titan View Post
    Spells are fair game for Powers:
    I see. I skipped over the general rule and went straight to the clarifying examples.

    (Transmutation's analogue is Psychometabolism, so Egoists can duplicate it easier).
    It should be easier for Nomads; haste grants super-speed, which is a Psychoportation effect.

    Incidentally, Nomads seem to get the short end of the bend reality deal. Psychoportation has no arcane analogue, so every arcane spell is from a prohibited "discipline."
    SnakePirate avatar by CheesePirate

    Running Emerald City Knights (OOC)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
    Translation: when Bahamut called "Dibs!" on your soul the devils sat back down, muttering under their breaths.
    Quote Originally Posted by TricksyAndFalse View Post
    4E Druids tap into the Primal Beast to wild shape. The Primal Beast cares not for your technicalities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I think we can all agree that optimizing a Beholder Mage beyond being a Beholder Mage is safely in the realm of "overkill" to begin with.

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