Psionics and Undead [3.5]

[LichPrinceAlim]

I've been bouncing around in books, but have yet to find a lot of Psionic Undead. I mean there's what, three of them?

And plus, my favorite undead, Brain in a Jar, has no Player stats when in reality, this is probably the closest thing to a Demilich

[Sinfire Titan]

There should be at least one online (WotC's Mind's Eye articles).



Psionics and Undead aren't that linked. I mean, Necromancy is really infamous, but you rarely ever hear about a psychic raising the dead. It's just not that common in fantasy.

[Thalnawr]

I'm AFB, but isn't there a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious?

[Optimystik]

I'm AFB, but isn't there a Psionic Lich in Hyperconscious?

There's a psionic lich in D&D.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The Euralden Eye is online at WotC, I believe. I psionic undead.

Then there's the Caller in Darkness... that psionic lich-thing... Yeah, there's not a lot of them.

I can't remember, but in 3.0 weren't undead unable to use psionics, period? Or at least, they couldn't use psychometabolism powers, since they did not have a CON score.

[Thalnawr]

There's a psionic lich in D&D.

Yeah, but that's 3.0 psionics, and should be thrown into a wood-chipper... I was talking about a template that basically does the same thing the MM lich template does, but psionic.

[Optimystik]

Yeah, but that's 3.0 psionics, and should be thrown into a wood-chipper... I was talking about a template that basically does the same thing the MM lich template does, but psionic.

Unlike some other 3.0 PrCs, that one isn't hard to convert. (That doesn't make it good, but hey.)

If it's just the phylactery part you want, any psion can do that. (Though it'll cost a feat for non-shapers.)

[erikun]

There is the Illithid Lich, the Alhoon (Lords of Madness). It is specifically stated as being a lich created with psionic powers.

The Caller of Darkness (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Spectral Savant (Complete Psionic) are also psionic undead, and you can add the Phrenic template (EPH) to any undead with a mind.

Beyond that, psionics and undead don't mix much. It certainly wouldn't be too strange to run into a Psion Ghost, for example, but the two themes don't seem to run into each other very often. (I notice more psionic demons than psionic undead.)

[Thalnawr]

If it's just the phylactery part you want, any psion can do that. (Though it'll cost a feat for non-shapers.)

The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.

Astral Seed:
To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body).

The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.

[Optimystik]

The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.

There's another power to deal with that.

[Thalnawr]

There's another power to deal with that.

Right, so a Telepath with EK (Astral Seed) can do this starting at ECL 18, and everyone else has to wait till epic. Or you have a GM who allows Hyperconscious, and you can do it at ECL11 like normal liches. The only advantage I can see to doing it with Astral Seed and True Mind Switch is that you can still enjoy a cup of coffee while being effectively immortal.

[Volkov]

There is the Illithid Lich, the Alhoon (Lords of Madness). It is specifically stated as being a lich created with psionic powers.

The Caller of Darkness (Expanded Psionics Handbook) and Spectral Savant (Complete Psionic) are also psionic undead, and you can add the Phrenic template (EPH) to any undead with a mind.

Beyond that, psionics and undead don't mix much. It certainly wouldn't be too strange to run into a Psion Ghost, for example, but the two themes don't seem to run into each other very often. (I notice more psionic demons than psionic undead.)

No, Alhoons are created when a Mind Flayer focuses on magic so much that the rest of the community considers him an abomination and kicks him out. Because the idea of the mind flayer afterlife is their brains joining with the elder brain (which in reality destroys them and causes them to be utterly consumed in mind and soul, giving the elder brain 20xp in the process) they seek immortality through lichdom.

[Optimystik]

Right, so a Telepath with EK (Astral Seed) can do this starting at ECL 18, and everyone else has to wait till epic. Or you have a GM who allows Hyperconscious, and you can do it at ECL11 like normal liches. The only advantage I can see to doing it with Astral Seed and True Mind Switch is that you can still enjoy a cup of coffee while being effectively immortal.

Not everyone - Elans can enjoy their coffee just fine. (Psiforged can't, but presumably don't care.)

You can do this trick before level 18 too - you just need 19 Int, an item with TMS and a ML check. Even if you fail, you just suffer brainburn and can try again later.

[KillianHawkeye]

I can't remember, but in 3.0 weren't undead unable to use psionics, period? Or at least, they couldn't use psychometabolism powers, since they did not have a CON score.

Psychometabolism was Strength. I think Con was for Psychokinesis.

[Thalnawr]

Not everyone - Elans can enjoy their coffee just fine. (Psiforged can't, but presumably don't care.)

You can do this trick before level 18 too - you just need 19 Int, an item with TMS and a ML check. Even if you fail, you just suffer brainburn and can try again later.

Not quite. You must also have the power on your class list, so if your class is Shaper, you don't have TMS on your list. You'd have to use Use Psionic Device, to emulate being a Telepath first.

By Power Stones:
Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements.
The user must have the power on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite key ability score.

If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure.

Granted, it's only a DC 34 check, and UPD is a class skill for shapers, but it's not exactly as cut and dry as it looks at first glance.

[Optimystik]

Not quite. You must also have the power on your class list, so if your class is Shaper, you don't have TMS on your list. You'd have to use Use Psionic Device, to emulate being a Telepath first.

So your options are:

a) Be a Telepath, Elan (any), or Psiforged (any), and pick up Astral Seed with Expanded Knowledge.

b) get UPD/UMD by another means.

[Thalnawr]

So your options are:

a) Be a Telepath, Elan (any), or Psiforged (any), and pick up Astral Seed with Expanded Knowledge.

b) get UPD/UMD by another means.

That's what it's looking like. Or perhaps an Ardent could do this without any fuss, with the ACF that allows them to reshape their mantles.

[Jack_Simth]

Well... under Magic/Psionics transparencey, magic and Psionics work the same way - so a Psionic Lich is an evil psionic character with Craft Wondrous Universal Item, and a Caster Manifester Level of 12, who spent the 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp (and, by extension of the crafting rules for magical/psionic items, 240 eight-hour days...) to make a sealed metal box full of strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed crystals on which the psionic character has imprinted his soul.

[AbyssKnight]

I actually think undead (or at least incorporeal undead) goes very well with psionics thematically. Something along the lines of "the mind unburdened by the flesh."

I imagine a Ghost Psion/Master of the Unseen Hand teaching a whole school of Psion Uncarnates. Perhaps some Unbodied as assistant professors. The library is a big room full of Brain-In-A-Jars.

[Lycanthromancer]

The only problem with that power is that it doesn't stop you from dying of old age eventually, unless you're already an Elan or something similiar.



The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.

Well, there ARE ways around it. Add necropolitan to the mix (with a few well-chosen powers) and you might as well be a lich.

[Jack_Simth]

I actually think undead (or at least incorporeal undead) goes very well with psionics thematically. Something along the lines of "the mind unburdened by the flesh."

I imagine a Ghost Psion/Master of the Unseen Hand teaching a whole school of Psion Uncarnates. Perhaps some Unbodied as assistant professors. The library is a big room full of Brain-In-A-Jars.

Eh, Wilders make better ghosts than do Psions (due to the charisma base). But yeah, nothing stopping a ghost Psion (unless the Psion REALLY dumped Charisma...).

[AbyssKnight]

Okay, granted, should have said Wilder. But still.....

I like the idea of psionic (incorporeal) undead.

[Sophismata]

The important part is underlined, your original age is part of the duplication process.

To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body).

Astral Seed will, on the plus side, make you effectively immortal - but if fixes you in the timestream. If you manifest it, go out and gain 4 levels, then get killed, welcome to 5 levels ago. Maximum age is, however, not a concern.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Psychometabolism was Strength. I think Con was for Psychokinesis.

Ah, yes, you are correct. Still, it would make more sense for an undead to be unable to alter their own dead flesh, if they were unable to use any psionic discipline.

Oh, 3.0 psionics. So very wacky. Talk about MAD...

[Volkov]

Ah, yes, you are correct. Still, it would make more sense for an undead to be unable to alter their own dead flesh, if they were unable to use any psionic discipline.

Oh, 3.0 psionics. So very wacky. Talk about MAD...

There's a reason why 3.5 was largely considered to be a much needed revision.

[Jack_Simth]

Astral Seed will, on the plus side, make you effectively immortal - but if fixes you in the timestream. If you manifest it, go out and gain 4 levels, then get killed, welcome to 5 levels ago. Maximum age is, however, not a concern.

The "welcome to five levels ago" bit requires a very particular table-specific bit. Namely, that your level is controlled by your body, rather than soul/mind/whatever.

When you consider that with the Mind Switch (and it's True counterpart) power, the levels go with the mind, rather than the body, that particular table-specific bit might be slightly difficult to support.

[Lycanthromancer]

Unfortunately, astral seed is abusable. Mind switch or metamorphosis into something, manifest astral seed, and then commit seppuku (preferably in such a way as to leave your WBL untapped).

Congratulations; you just came back as a 12-headed hydra.

[T.G. Oskar]

Wasn't there a lich equivalent on the Forbidden Book of Psychic Bipolarity?

Spectral Savant is Undead, and effectively the equivalent of Liches, as well as 3.5. Worse, they can be...good?

[Jack_Simth]

Unfortunately, astral seed is abusable. Mind switch or metamorphosis into something, manifest astral seed, and then commit seppuku (preferably in such a way as to leave your WBL untapped).

Congratulations; you just came back as a 12-headed hydra.

Mind you:
It still costs you a level to do that... but I never saw that loophole before. Interesting. Shaper-15 with Expanded Knowledge for Mind Switch (Telepath-6, so totally doable) manifests Astral Seed after borrowing a shape (only needs ten minutes) comes out in an arbitrary form, complete with all Ex abilities. With the Mind Switch method, you'll need to target something that's not immune to mind-affecting stuff, and for sanity's sake, you'll want to target something that doesn't have a resurrection limitation (or not; you've got Astral Seed, which has no such limitation on what it can bring back). Huh. That's... very interesting.

[Sophismata]

When you consider that with the Mind Switch (and it's True counterpart) power, the levels go with the mind, rather than the body, that particular table-specific bit might be slightly difficult to support.

Oh, yes, you're right. Also, ageing is actually beneficial - manifest Astral Seed, age 3 categories, die, and remake yourself without the physical penalties.