How does an evil dragon fight non-lethally?

[Flarp]

My players, don't even think about reading this.

It's generally accepted that, to at least provide suspense, the PCs should at one point fight the BBEG early on and get their buttocks (Is that the plural? Buttockes? Buttocki?) handed to them.

The problem, here, is that one BBEG will be an Ancient Red Dragon, and they don't exactly show mercy, especially on those about to disrupt their centuries-long machinations to bring down a powerful human nation of Good.

So, then, how do I go about finding a way to let the PCs encounter and battle with this dragon, but not get turned into a decorative burnt smudge on the wall?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Treat the ARD as playing with his food, pull punches, do some weak manoubers, and also if you want motivation... how about the ARD in all his arrogance believes that just by scaring the PC he can avoid the troubles they might present in the future

[krossbow]

My players, don't even think about reading this.

It's generally accepted that, to at least provide suspense, the PCs should at one point fight the BBEG early on and get their buttocks (Is that the plural? Buttockes? Buttocki?) handed to them.

The problem, here, is that one BBEG will be an Ancient Red Dragon, and they don't exactly show mercy, especially on those about to disrupt their centuries-long machinations to bring down a powerful human nation of Good.

So, then, how do I go about finding a way to let the PCs encounter and battle with this dragon, but not get turned into a decorative burnt smudge on the wall?

slaves. Have your red dragon appear with henchmen specifically instructed to use non-lethal force (in addition to the red dragon itself) to take down the PCs. Then have them shuttled off to a slave pit to mine for it, or something equally useless and banal that will inevitably end up with them escaping.

[Flarp]

Treat the ARD as playing with his food, pull punches, do some weak manoubers, and also if you want motivation... how about the ARD in all his arrogance believes that just by scaring the PC he can avoid the troubles they might present in the future

While that's entirely valid, that sounds sort of... well, dumb, on the dragon's part.

Now, I realize that dragons are basically famous for treasure, arrogance, and little else, but this dragon has literally been infiltrating this nation under various guises for generations - he understands how wrong things can go when you try and scare people away instead of ending them, quickly.

Certainly a good idea, but not quite what I'm looking for.

slaves. Have your red dragon appear with henchmen specifically instructed to use non-lethal force (in addition to the red dragon itself) to take down the PCs. Then have them shuttled off to a slave pit to mine for it, or something equally useless and banal that will inevitably end up with them escaping.

Actually, that works... quite well. See, the dragon is a high-ranking noble in an already Very Lawful Evil state, one that is basically divided up into the military, the nobility, and slaves.

The only problem is that the PCs might spread knowledge of the dragon's... dragon-ness.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh well, that was the best idea I had.

Edit: Don't make him apear in dragon form until strictly necesary, they cast as sorcerer get him polymorph as a spell known and have fun impersonationg another one

[Volkov]

Mechanically (in 3.X at least), they can just take a -4 penalty to their attack rolls to deal non-lethal damage. In character, Red Dragons don't attack what they do not perceive to be worth their efforts or has not earned their wrath. A party of low to mid level adventurers, for example, is not a worthy fight for an ancient red dragon, all but Great wyrm white dragons, are not a challenge for them, and a village is typically just the subject of their wrath.

[Volkov]

Oh well, that was the best idea I had.

Edit: Don't make him apear in dragon form until strictly necesary, they cast as sorcerer get him polymorph as a spell known and have fun impersonationg another one

Unlike metallic dragons, Red Dragons feel no need to masquerade as humanoids unless they are very bored or absolutely have to. As they see their own forms as perfection itself, second only to that of the Draconic Gods.

[ClockShock]

Do the rules allow for polymorphing into an Ancient Red Dragon, or at least something that looks like one.
Because if so, you could play around with polymorph so the players think ARD is a polymorphed form.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's generally accepted that, to at least provide suspense, the PCs should at one point fight the BBEG early on and get their buttocks (Is that the plural? Buttockes? Buttocki?) handed to them.

The problem, here, is that one BBEG will be an Ancient Red Dragon, and they don't exactly show mercy, especially on those about to disrupt their centuries-long machinations to bring down a powerful human nation of Good.

So, then, how do I go about finding a way to let the PCs encounter and battle with this dragon, but not get turned into a decorative burnt smudge on the wall?

Try something different. For example, maybe it isn't a literal battle. Instead, it could be a legal battle or an economical one. Maybe the dragon manipulates the PCs into a compromising position and taps his connections to have them caught in the act, or framed for a crime. Maybe the dragon has the bank forclose on the PCs' families' homes so the dragon can buy them from the bank, or simply destroys said homes the old fashioned way. Maybe the dragon steals all the PCs' money or hires a dozen different thieves to steal various things from them.

The important thing is only that the PCs feel defeated and know the dragon was behind it. It could even work to have the dragon get away with something that the PCs know it did, but there's no proof and nothing the PCs can do about it. Sometimes you just gotta think outside the box.

[Cyrion]

They don't.

If the party's mid-level, do a TPK-1 somewhere other than the dragon's lair. As long as the party has access to raise dead, life goes on once the dragon leaves. This could also be an opportunity to introduce an NPC patron or mentor- he or she observes the party get wiped out and does the raise dead for them.

One advantage of this is that the party will really really want revenge on the dragon but will also probably be intimidated. You could get some good dynamics out of that.

[Volkov]

Do the rules allow for polymorphing into an Ancient Red Dragon, or at least something that looks like one.
Because if so, you could play around with polymorph so the players think ARD is a polymorphed form.

Even shapechange will only let you mimic a creature with 25 hit dice, so no.

[Thrawn183]

The Dragon could just decide that this is the group of mortals he is going to torture for the next decade before finally putting them out of their misery. Then just think of everything horrible he can do to everyone they care about.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm of the opinion that, by the sounds of it, he doesn't.

If you really need to introduce him, simply give them cause to be in the general area of a suitably large body of military professionals who have annoyed the dragon.

If they survive simply because the dragon didn't notice them whilst it was obliterating the detatchment of soldiers, it should get around the whole unwisely-merciful thing.

[edit] Alternatively, he could quite simply set out to do the sensible thing, and obliterate the party directly. Give the players enough warning, and an escape route, and have them spend a few hours scurrying threw sewers and desperately hiding under rocks whilst old lizard-lips tears the real-estate apart trying to find and get at them?

[Jack_Simth]

Actually, that works... quite well. See, the dragon is a high-ranking noble in an already Very Lawful Evil state, one that is basically divided up into the military, the nobility, and slaves.

The only problem is that the PCs might spread knowledge of the dragon's... dragon-ness.

An ancient red dragon has some spells, right?

Try Mark of Justice on for size for that....

[krossbow]

Alter memory spell.


Or better yet, have the dragon use a minor artifact that steals memories, so your player's characters also literally need to kill the villian for a macguffin or never know who they really were before being tossed in a slave pit.

[Lycanthromancer]

Why kill what you can use?

The big ol' dragon should definitely know the ins and outs of humanoid-types, and should see them as far more lucrative as servants and/or slaves than as dragon chow.

Find a way for him to (legally) knock them down for the count, then have him "convince" them to work for him (magic or mundane, make it really chafe, but be an offer they simply can't refuse).

Part of the "agreement" is that they are hit with a curse that prevents them from telling anyone (by word, whether written or spoken) about his true nature. (This does not, of course, prevent them from finding a way to reveal it otherwise.)

Alternatively, have him willingly reveal himself to them, have him seem like a jovial fellow who is not your typical red. He's worried that his attempt to redeem this horribly evil nation is about to go awry, and the PCs are the ones he's been told will rectify the situation (prophecies...oooh). Willing allies are better than unwilling slaves, after all, and it sounds like this dragon is a master of manipulation.

Of course, whether he's telling the truth or not is up to you.

[Falconer]

the players enough warning, and an escape route, and have them spend a few hours scurrying threw sewers and desperately hiding under rocks whilst old lizard-lips tears the real-estate apart trying to find and get at them?

This. The PC's are part of a meeting/large gathering/whatever. The dragon swoops in with a large supply of minions, starts massacring everything. The PC's, as said, are provided with an escape route such as an absurdly spacious sewer. A few minions chase them in, and they have to keep ahead of the minions and the massive, angry lizard tearing into the ground trying to dig them out and kill them.

[Zeful]

Actually, that works... quite well. See, the dragon is a high-ranking noble in an already Very Lawful Evil state, one that is basically divided up into the military, the nobility, and slaves.

The only problem is that the PCs might spread knowledge of the dragon's... dragon-ness.

Who's going to believe them, they lost. Besides, what competent BBEG is going to keep this attack secret when he could use it to further enforce the loyalty of his people. "Last night, I was attacked by [PC's number] in a cowardly attempt by [nation here] to kill me and destabilize the region so they could annex you for 'your own good'." He'll say, he'll continue reassuring them of his continued health, how his bride-hunt is going (or how his wife is, as the situation warrants), emphasizing that nothing has changed.

[elonin]

Why kill what you can use?

The big ol' dragon should definitely know the ins and outs of humanoid-types, and should see them as far more lucrative as servants and/or slaves than as dragon chow.

Find a way for him to (legally) knock them down for the count, then have him "convince" them to work for him (magic or mundane, make it really chafe, but be an offer they simply can't refuse).

Part of the "agreement" is that they are hit with a curse that prevents them from telling anyone (by word, whether written or spoken) about his true nature. (This does not, of course, prevent them from finding a way to reveal it otherwise.)

Alternatively, have him willingly reveal himself to them, have him seem like a jovial fellow who is not your typical red. He's worried that his attempt to redeem this horribly evil nation is about to go awry, and the PCs are the ones he's been told will rectify the situation (prophecies...oooh). Willing allies are better than unwilling slaves, after all, and it sounds like this dragon is a master of manipulation.

Of course, whether he's telling the truth or not is up to you.

I like this. Maybe using a Gaes that specifies not revealing the dragon's true nature that gets enacted when the party members sign a contract (part of the deal else be killed) thus no save ie the spell is in the contract. Alternatively the dragon could find a way to mindwipe the party.

[slyfox99]

I like it too... I was going to say it but.... Owes Lycanthromancer a coke now)...

[DarknessLord]

Part of the "agreement" is that they are hit with a curse that prevents them from telling anyone (by word, whether written or spoken) about his true nature. (This does not, of course, prevent them from finding a way to reveal it otherwise.)

Insist that they actually act out any pantomime efforts while your at it too.

[Lycanthromancer]

Insist that they actually act out any pantomime efforts while your at it too.

Well, they COULD do it that way, or they could just find a way to cast true seeing on the head of the army after dispelling the charm person he's been under.

Etc.

[Dimers]

The question is addressed equally well as "Why does an evil dragon fight non-lethally?" And of course a couple posts have offered answers to that. Boredom is one more answer, and desire to toy with lesser beings is another. The BBEG might want to keep the adventurers around so that they can act as toys over a period of years. Baldur's Gate 2 used some variation on that theme for their own ancient red dragon, and Xykon certainly shows plenty of it ...

[Debihuman]

In other games, this tactic is for powerful creatures to play with their food. They know they are in a position of power and can taunt the PCs, give them a small taste of their power, and then LEAVE before the PCs can organize and respond. Encounters like this should be mercifully short. Perhaps the ARD blasts with his breath weapon so that the PCs are just on the edge of being harmed and then leaves his minions (and the dragon should have minions) to fight the PCs. Kobolds are good for minions -- they like the dragon's power and the dragon has an endless supply of kobolds to boss around.

Debby

[deuxhero]

Find a way for him to (legally) knock them down for the count, then have him "convince" them to work for him (magic or mundane, make it really chafe, but be an offer they simply can't refuse).

See, Drow Sign Language is ALWAYS a good choice.

[Lycanthromancer]

See, Drow Sign Language is ALWAYS a good choice.

Drow sign language IS technically speech.

[deuxhero]

How does that work?

[Lycanthromancer]

How does that work?

Body language.

[deuxhero]

Exactly. It isn't "body speech"

[Innis Cabal]

Your saying sign language isn't speech? I think alot of people would disagree with you on that. Namely the deaf.