[4e] building a rogue

[oxinabox]

So I've been invited to play 4e, on Monday.
I've never played in a 4e campaign before.
I've DMed 4e... a lot, (wow, thinking about it, 4e may just be the system I've GMed the most for, almost as much as all other systems combined)
and I've played in a 1 shot game once. and I played in the 4e demo.
But I've never technically played, in a campaign.


So:
Backstory, I'll have to get this approved by the DM, but I think it's kinda good and full of plot hooks, Which he can use if he wants, and if he doesn't want then he can say I've travelled a million miles from where I was born.

Backstory
Most Rogues are one the run from their past. Asp Altern (working name) is one the run from his future.

his people:
Summery: Born among exiled Devas from the astral plane.

Spoiler

Show

12 generations ago, a group (clan?) of 97 Devas were exiled from the Astral.
Why? they don't really remember anymore, or if they do they aren't telling Asp.
They were sent to the material plane.
Whereas the Devas in the Astral, spring forth fully grown from the plane,
And the Devas who walk the mortal realms are reincarnated as fully formed adults.
Asp's people are very much of the flesh.
They breed, children are born, elders die (I suspect they still have an incredible lifespan).
They Drink, Screw, Fight, and Gamble as much as any Man.
This Change happened sometime after they were exiled (maybe immediately upon entering the mortal realm).

Now they're souls are still reused - there are never more, than 97 Exiles alive at one time. one dies, another will be born within the year.

In the Mortal world they assimilated a Goblin Culture and Clan.
In the modern day they still live with goblins,
With the limited number of Devas they need the goblins.
Some would say the goblins are second class citizens in their community.
But some high ranking positions in the military are occupied by goblins.
as a rule though the Goblins are normally the grunts, cannon fodder in the military machine. lowly servants, common artisans and poor over taxed merchants.

I'm not sure where in the game world they will be located, but It will be somewhere on the coast - while the mortal ocean is a poor substitute for the Sea of Stars, a substitute is none the less.

Now there is a Prophesy that one day, One would be ReBorn. The Admiral Of Swords.
A Hero from the Last Time Devas were Exiled*. A Soul that was waiting for the Time to be Right.
The Admiral Of Swords, would Lead the Blade Fleet, on an Assault on The Astral Sea to Take Back their lands, there home, their Birthright.
*Or from when the Exiles first Fleed the Astral Realm
The Blade Fleet is a unit of Elite Deva Warriors, the Fist of the Heart, who were sent to the where the battle burned hottest to extinguish the flame. (Life hasn't been easy for the Exiles).
The Blade Fleet are Marked with ha Tattoo of a Sword in black ink on there forearm (point towards their body).
The Admiral of Swords will be marked with swords like those of the blade fleet on each arm.
these tattoos will spontaneously appear when he comes of age.
Now Asp was born ~9 months after a natural disaster killed off a large number of the Exciles (31),
31 others were born within a couple of months either side of his birth.
He is the 98th Soul Among the Exiles.
If someone was counting (and some priest surly would) they would realise that the Admiral of Swords has been reborn.

So oneday (and the age equivalent of 15), Asp wakes up to see, two Black Swords tattooed on his arms.
he knows what this means, and he's like "Oh, **** I ain't no hero,"
He fled the community (only one person saw before he left, a younger sibling of some form),
and has been moving from town to town, country to country for the equivalent of 3 (human) years.
During this time he picked up the skill of a Rogue, having to sneak from town to town, and steal for food/pleasure.

So,
Build Rules:
standard Point Buy.
books: any WoTC 4e, I'm not certain about dragon, but I assume it's allowed
Race: Deva
Class: Rogue
lvl 4

I've had a shot at building this, (and I'll probably have another, but I'ld like any suggestions)
I'm thinking Brutal Rogue,
with Mounted combat (Dire Wolf is awesome for rogues (CA if got an adjacent ally (doesn't kick in til lvl 5), the riding of them something that the Devas picked up from the goblins)
Invoker MC feat, representing his Heritage, giving that lighting AOE at will power, (1d6+wis, Area 1 range 10)
and then Back stabber Feat for getting by sneak attack raised to d8's.
at higher lvls looking at getting more, The feat to raise my Memory for 1000 lifetimes to a d8
invoker MC feats - i want invoke obedience - that's is an awesome power ("You may now fall prone, as a free action, bow before my glory!")
I ended up using attributes: Str 16, Con 8, Dex 16, Int 12, Wis 15, Char 14
Very well Rounded,
Suggestions for a new player?

[Shardan]

That is definately a pretty spiffy character concept. mechanically its not 'opped' but its sound. I don't really know mount rules. never used them. but that could work. I'd suggest giving up on the MC invoker stuff. feat intensive for minimal usefulness. If you want to represent the deva heritage, I'd say re-fluff some of your powers like blinding barrage. Your wis is going to lag behind and since dex and strength are your mains

[oxinabox]

Man there are so many awesome feats that are appropriate:

Versitile Duelist: Profiency with all miltairy Heavy blades (May use for rogue powers) - clearly explained by the militirstic nature of the Exciles - everyone getrs some militairy training.

And All these Cool Rogue and Deva feats (I renewed my Insider Subscription, for the first time in ~12 months)

Dirty fighting
Brutal Wound
battle intuition
immortal skill
upright retrival.
trap sense
Black arrowstrike
connected
Cruel Cut style
deft footwork (don't need so much if i have mounted combat+direwolf)
distant advantage
Improved intititive
Leaf runner scout
quickdraw (Now gives +2 inititive)
Ritual Caster - there are some great rituals for a theif - passwall (obviosly), that one that lets you make a light that illuminates but can't be seen.
Theif Novice

The Options are overwelming

That is definately a pretty spiffy character concept. mechanically its not 'opped' but its sound. I don't really know mount rules. never used them. but that could work. I'd suggest giving up on the MC invoker stuff. feat intensive for minimal usefulness. If you want to represent the deva heritage, I'd say re-fluff some of your powers like blinding barrage. Your wis is going to lag behind and since dex and strength are your mains

I'm not just repressenting deva heritage - i'm repressenting deva Hero Heritiage, I rather like the idea of ' Oh damn, there gething away... Wow, that was lucky, Never saw that lighting storm comming."
I can easy have my wisdom 15 and put it up to 16 soonish or even right away if i drop my cha by 1 (meaning i'ld only have a +1 charisma bonus), cos Deva's get +2 Int +2 wis.

Trying to pick out daylies - Confounding stike is cool - making enemies hurt enemies is always good, but duelers prowless? Attack it anyone ever attacks (weather they hit or not) that is awesome, I don't know how martial stances work in 4e.


As for Hooks:
Theres his people, - the Exciles who could be after him.
Or maybe some one, an imposter tatoo's his arms with the two swords in secret, and begins the assult (or rally for the assult).

[Kurald Galain]

Race: Deva
Class: Rogue
lvl 4

Here's some mechanical suggestions,
Dire Wolves aren't all that great for rogues. This is because it is quite easy for a rogue to have CA every round even without a wolf. Whether riding is useful in a campaign depends on the DM.
Rogues have zero reason to invest in wisdom, so that makes invoker MC a pretty weak choice, and an attack you're likely to miss with. There are also divine powers involving strength, that'd be a stronger pick.
Backstabber is a much overrated feat. If you want to do more damage, Weapon Expertise and Nimble Blade are both better.
Rolling 1d8 instead of 1d6 for Memory is a poor feat (just like Elven Agility). It sounds cool but it will only make a difference once every 10 combats or so.
Good rogue feats include Distant Advantage, Skill Focus Stealth, Slaying Action, Cutthroat, and probably a bunch of others that slip my mind at the moment.

("You may now fall prone, as a free action, bow before my glory!")

If you like such powers, might I suggest a charisma-based rogue build, and multi'ing to Bard?

[Colmarr]

Backstabber is a much overrated feat. If you want to do more damage, Weapon Expertise and Nimble Blade are both better.

Putting aside the attack bonus vs damage bonus discussion, which of the +dmg feats do you favour?

Is backstabber the first of them you would take for a rogue?

[Kurald Galain]

Putting aside the attack bonus vs damage bonus discussion, which of the +dmg feats do you favour?

Gnome Weapon Training. Lasting Frost + Wintertouched. Barbarian multiclass.

Yes, and backstabber too. It's certainly not a bad feat; it's just not a great feat either. When building a rogue, I would probably run out of heroic feat slots before I got to backstabber.

[oxinabox]

in heroic tier changing your sneak attack to d8's in an average of +2 dmg.
Seems good to me.
I'll have to have allok at those other feats you mentioned.

My wisdom is +3 like my Str and my dex.
I don't think i'm going to miss with my Invoker powers.
+3 is good, it's not +4 but it is good.
If i got rid of Back stabbler i could aford the next invoker feat and get the one that does 1d12s damage.

Damn i'm really bad at optimising arn't i?
I should delay getting and ridign a direwolf until i know how the DM's going handle riding?

[greenknight]

With that backstory, I'd be suggesting you use the Warlord or Warden class. Both of those can use a sword effectively with their class powers, and they fit the backstory very well, IMO. The Warlord (Taclord) has the whole leadership thing going for him, while Warden has the endurance to stand on the front line. Rageblood Barbarian could even fit if you want it to.

Rogue just doesn't seem to fit the concept for me because I see them as more sneaky types than inspirational leaders if you're going the Brutal Scoundrel route.

[cupkeyk]

Now there is a Prophesy that one day, One would be ReBorn. The Admiral Of Swords.

Then be a revenant(deva) instead! better stat synchs.

[Kurald Galain]

in heroic tier changing your sneak attack to d8's in an average of +2 dmg.

Oh, it's not bad. But consider that the damage you do depends both on your damage roll and your to-hit roll. Usually, a +1 to hit will boost your damage per round more than a +2 to damage does.

My wisdom is +3 like my Str and my dex.
I don't think i'm going to miss with my Invoker powers.

With a 15 wis, it's actually +2. It's also that with point buy and/or a +dex race, it's easy to start with +4 or +5 on dex. And your rogue gets +1 to hit with daggers, but not invoker stuff.

A level-1 rogue can easily have +9 to hit (+4 dex, +3 dagger, +1 rogue talent, +1 from either a high dex or some feat). Even if you consider that AC is (on average) two points higher than other defenses, that's easily a five-point difference.

Okay, at low levels it doesn't matter much. The reason why it may end up troublesome is (1) you can boost two scores at level 4 and 8 and so on, and you are now dependent on three; and (2) rogue powers use weapons and invoker powers use implements.

I should delay getting and ridign a direwolf until i know how the DM's going handle riding?

Ask him. In some settings, you can't use a mount much. Personally I would just buy the mount but not the feat, so you can have the coolness of riding a wolf without worrying about it mechanically.

[oxinabox]

Rogue just doesn't seem to fit the concept for me because I see them as more sneaky types than inspirational leaders if you're going the Brutal Scoundrel route.

Here the thing, Asp isn't an inspirational leader.
He's abasically a coward, that's why he ran from his destiny.

Reverant it totally innapropriate.
reborn hero's soul != undead soul animated back to life by the raven queen

[Yakk]

I'll say "go for accuracy".

Rogues do decent damage. Doing decent damage with near 100% reliability > doing slightly more damage with < 100% reliability.

Hitting on a 2 is as cool as doing 2 more points of damage, on average. Really. :)

[megabyter5]

Do you really need help optimizing a build in 4th edition? Just close your eyes, pick your feats and powers, and win at everything; it isn't that complicated.

But seriously, that sounds like an awesome character concept, and although I don't have as much 4e experience as some, I have one suggestion: if he was such an inspirational leader last time around, he should take multiclass in warlord or bard, but be a little reluctant to use those powers. That way it can feel like you have a little bit of hero left over from your past life, but you repress it.