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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Jergmo's Avatar

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    Default A question regarding Elementals.

    From the SRD:

    Traits

    An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

    * Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    * Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
    * Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
    * Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
    * Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
    * Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

    They don't eat, sleep or breathe and they're immune to just about everything that forces a Fortitude save, apart from spells that affect objects. They're big things made of rock. Or water. Or what-have-you.

    Why would elementals have a Constitution score? Despite not having a metabolism we can recognize, they still become fatigued? (It says they don't sleep, but if you are active long enough you still need to rest to recover strength)

    Wouldn't it be more sensible if they had no Constitution score and gained bonus hit points like Constructs?


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    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Elementals are the living embodiments of the elements. Or something.
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jergmo View Post
    From the SRD:

    Traits

    An elemental possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

    * Darkvision out to 60 feet.
    * Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning.
    * Not subject to critical hits or flanking.
    * Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an elemental is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an elemental. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection, to restore it to life.
    * Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) that it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
    * Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe.

    They don't eat, sleep or breathe and they're immune to just about everything that forces a Fortitude save, apart from spells that affect objects. They're big things made of rock. Or water. Or what-have-you.

    Why would elementals have a Constitution score? Despite not having a metabolism we can recognize, they still become fatigued? (It says they don't sleep, but if you are active long enough you still need to rest to recover strength)

    Wouldn't it be more sensible if they had no Constitution score and gained bonus hit points like Constructs?
    Elementals are alive that is why. Only unliving entities/beings can have no Con score. Elementals are not immune to Fort saves: Flare still works on them (a cantrip with a fort save.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    The thing that bothers me about that distinction with the unliving/etc. is that Elementals are beings that are fueled by an Elemental energy force.

    The difference with the undead is...that they're fueled by Negative energy. They have different energy sources, but they're not "alive" in the same sense as we are.


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    DM: "Sunder the wall?! WT**** kind of tactics are these!?"
    Me: The kind that armies have been using for millennia.
    DM: They didn't do it with swords!
    Me: Which makes us so much cooler.

    Player: Where are the babau in relation to everyone else?
    Me: They're right behind you. Vesil is covered in Loki's blood. That is their location in relation to you.
    Player: I was just wondering about a fireball.

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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Regardless, they are living enough to hybridize with other creatures- the Half Elemental template in Manual of the Planes.

    Anything that says "may be added to any living creature" can be added to elementals- so you could have Half-Dragon Elementals, for example.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-02-25 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Elementals are natural, undead and constructs aren't.

    Next!

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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Regardless, they are living enough to hybridize with other creatures- the Half Elemental template in Manual of the Planes.
    I thought that was the result of Genie-like beings breeding with humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Elementals are natural, undead and constructs aren't.

    Next!
    Arright, then.
    Last edited by Jergmo; 2010-02-25 at 03:39 PM.


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    DM: "Sunder the wall?! WT**** kind of tactics are these!?"
    Me: The kind that armies have been using for millennia.
    DM: They didn't do it with swords!
    Me: Which makes us so much cooler.

    Player: Where are the babau in relation to everyone else?
    Me: They're right behind you. Vesil is covered in Loki's blood. That is their location in relation to you.
    Player: I was just wondering about a fireball.

    My Homebrew

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    That's Genasi, from Forgotten Realms.

    Genies are outsiders- not technically elementals.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-02-25 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    That's Genasi, from Forgotten Realms.
    So...Genasi =/= Half-elemental? Bah, I thought they were basically the same thing.


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    DM: "Sunder the wall?! WT**** kind of tactics are these!?"
    Me: The kind that armies have been using for millennia.
    DM: They didn't do it with swords!
    Me: Which makes us so much cooler.

    Player: Where are the babau in relation to everyone else?
    Me: They're right behind you. Vesil is covered in Loki's blood. That is their location in relation to you.
    Player: I was just wondering about a fireball.

    My Homebrew

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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jergmo View Post
    So...Genasi =/= Half-elemental? Bah, I thought they were basically the same thing.
    They aren't, for the same reason that Tieflings aren't the same as Half-Fiends, and Aasimar aren't the same as Half-Celestials.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    In theory, you could rule that the distant descendants of pairings between humans, and half-elementals, could also be genasi. In the same fashion as half-fiends eventually producing tieflings.

    Still, normally, they are genie descendants, not elemental descendants.

    Races of Faerun does suggest, that the servants of elemental deities sometimes produce genasi offspring with humankind.

    Even if such an elemental deity is evil- so its servants would really be fiends and ought to produce tiefling descendants. Umberlee, and water genasi, is the example given.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2010-02-25 at 03:48 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    In theory, you could rule that the distant descendants of pairings between humans, and half-elementals, could also be genasi. In the same fashion as half-fiends eventually producing tieflings.

    Still, normally, they are genie descendants, not elemental descendants.

    Races of Faerun does suggest, that the servants of elemental deities sometimes produce genasi offspring with humankind.

    Even if such an elemental deity is evil- so its servants would really be fiends and ought to produce tiefling descendants. Umberlee, and water genasi, is the example given.
    I'm looking in Monsters of Faerun right now at the Genasi listings - maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't it seem like their racial attributes are really wonky?

    Air
    +2 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

    Earth
    +2 Str, +4 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

    Fire
    +2 Int, -2 Cha

    Water
    +2 Con, -2 Cha


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    DM: "Sunder the wall?! WT**** kind of tactics are these!?"
    Me: The kind that armies have been using for millennia.
    DM: They didn't do it with swords!
    Me: Which makes us so much cooler.

    Player: Where are the babau in relation to everyone else?
    Me: They're right behind you. Vesil is covered in Loki's blood. That is their location in relation to you.
    Player: I was just wondering about a fireball.

    My Homebrew

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Maybe it didn't follow the standard pattern of 10s and 11s? Those adjustments don't match the ones in FRCS.

    According to FRCS:

    Air: +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
    Earth: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
    Fire: +2 Int, -2 Cha
    Water: +2 Con, -2 Cha
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jergmo View Post
    The thing that bothers me about that distinction with the unliving/etc. is that Elementals are beings that are fueled by an Elemental energy force.

    The difference with the undead is...that they're fueled by Negative energy. They have different energy sources, but they're not "alive" in the same sense as we are.
    Plain ol' humanoids and other Material Plane creatures are technically fueled by Positive Energy. Undead have no Con because of the Negative Energy specifically, not because they have some energy source powering them, so whether you're powered by the elemental planes, the Positive Energy plane, Baator, whatever, as long as it's not negative energy you have a Con score. Not all that logical, but that's the way it is.

    Constructs have no Con score because while they may be powered by the souls of elemental beings in some cases (though not always), that's just the equivalent of ghosts and specters and such being powered by the souls of other living beings.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    It's clearly very silly that elementals are classified as alive in 3.5. Earth elementals, essentially big moving lumps of rock, can be infected with disease and have their "wounds" healed just like animals? Come on.

    On the other hand, there's no really good reason for non-living things not to have Constitution scores. Clearly some of them are tougher than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Elementals are natural, undead and constructs aren't.
    Some undead pop up naturally.
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    It's clearly very silly that elementals are classified as alive in 3.5. Earth elementals, essentially big moving lumps of rock, can be infected with disease and have their "wounds" healed just like animals? Come on.
    Your gripe is with Earth, which can infact contain diseases and other maladies, but you don't mention...the AIR being healed? Or you know, a massive roaring bonfire? Or a water spout? At least the Earth is physical and substantial.
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    Default Re: A question regarding Elementals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    On the other hand, there's no really good reason for non-living things not to have Constitution scores. Clearly some of them are tougher than others.
    This is true, particularly since the introduction of undead "metabolisms" and "diets" in Libris Mortis; I've never seen the benefit of removing Con from undead and constructs and then going to great lengths to make a pseudo-Con for them (Unholy Toughness, replacing Con with something else for certain rolls, etc.). Con could very well represent the strength of an undead creature's animating force and the integrity of a construct's body, or even vice-versa for unintelligent undead and elementally-bound constructs.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
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