Paladin/rogue

[Heliomance]

I have this character concept, of a small time criminal - pickpocket, con artist, whatever - who then got religion and became a paladin. Unfortunately, rogue and paladin really don't play well together - rogue relies on the only two skills a paladin can dump. Is there any way to make it work, and still be effective?

[Starbuck_II]

I have this character concept, of a small time criminal - pickpocket, con artist, whatever - who then got religion and became a paladin. Unfortunately, rogue and paladin really don't play well together - rogue relies on the only two skills a paladin can dump. Is there any way to make it work, and still be effective?

Which:
Open lock? Not against code
Bluff? Paladins can bluff (even lie) only gross violations count against you. But yes, you could just stop doing it if this is iffy.
Pick Pocket? Not against code.

[Ryuuk]

I think he meant ability scores.

Rogues being DEX+INT
Paladins being STR+CON+WIS+CHA

[Heliomance]

Abilities. I meant abilities. Int and Dex.

[Starbuck_II]

Dex is useful for everyone (Init).

What level are you planning to be Rogue to pally??

[Ryuuk]

Well, you could simply rough it. At +8 Skills from the rogue you can afford to leave it at 10 , you would just have to specialize, being more a Paladin with a spash of Rogue with regards to skills.

As for Dex, you would only lose Evasion, I think. If it's an acceptable lose, take the Heavy Armor and build the rest of your array as if it were a Paladin.

[Heliomance]

It's a level 3 game, so early. PbP, so I don't know how likely we are to level. I considered Devoted Inquisitor, which would let me keep taking levels in rogue if I wanted to later.

[Ryuuk]

Rogue 1 / Paladin 2 ?

This would probably be your best bet, with rogue only giving you 1d6 sneak attack and a load of skill points at first. If you can really on heavy armor, you can work with a lower Dex.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure there is a feat (maybe Dragon Mag or Complete Scoundrel) that let some Rogue and Paladin abilities stack...

[Heliomance]

Devoted Inquisitor, Complete Scoundrel, lets you daze an enemy hit with both smite and sneak attack, and lets you multiclass freely between them.

On second thoughts, I'm considering Crusader instead of Paladin, but I have no experience with ToB. Would that be easier to make work?

[Frosty]

Then go Swordsage instead of Rogue. Still lots of tasty skills...

[Gnaeus]

Yes, Crusader is easier and generally better than paladin for most things. Crusader rogue, swordsage rogue, or crusader swordsage all are playable.

[Gan The Grey]

If I made a Pal/Rog, I'd dump Strength, pump Dex, Con, Char, wear light armor, and focus on feinting in combat to beat the bu-jebbus outta people. I might look into feats that convert Turn Undead attempts into useful bonuses eventually.

On the most common thing your character won't be able to sneak attack, undead, you can instead spend smite evils to dust them.

I'm sure someone with more patience with the books can expound upon my idea.

[Heliomance]

Then go Swordsage instead of Rogue. Still lots of tasty skills...

Swordsage doesn't have even a little bit the same flavour as a rogue. A swordsage is a skilled fighter with a mystical flair. I want a small time criminal.

However, having looked over the Crusader, I think I'll go for it if the DM allows it. Probably with a fairly heavy focus on Devoted Spirit. It's a post-apocalyptic setting, and I really want him to have the attitude of protecting other people from the wibbly crap that's suddenly happening.

[Thurbane]

Devoted Inquisitor, Complete Scoundrel, lets you daze an enemy hit with both smite and sneak attack, and lets you multiclass freely between them.

There's also Sacred Outlaw (Dragon Mag) that lets rogue levels and cleric levels stack for Turning Undead and Sneak Attack. I'm pretty sure it would work for a paladin high enough level to turn undead.

[Amphetryon]

Check Nightsong Infiltrator (CAd, I think) and Shadowbane Inquisitor/Stalker for PrCs that work well with Rogue/Pally. Ranged Smite seems a likely candidate to reduce MAD.

[ericgrau]

There's no reason why you can't be a strength based rogue instead of a dex based rogue. At least for combat. Dumping int makes you take a hit, but you can manage. There are a lot of good cha, str and wis based skills you can focus on, and you can still do ok on the int and dex skills if you really need any.

Turn undead is going to suck. Getting a good sneak attack trigger will be a minor issue because you won't want to spend so much on something that only gives a couple d6's or so. If you have another party member that also likes to flank then that could help.

[Pluto]

Shadowbane Inquisitor (CAd) and Greyguard (CSc) are made for this. Both are pretty weak (comprable to straight Pally levels), but they're designed specifically for this.

Shadowbane Stalker (CAd) is one of the most fun classes I've played. I've only done it with Rogue/Cleric entry, but Rogue/Paladin shouldn't be too different until high levels (it'll probably even be more powerful until around level 10 in a lowish optimization group).

Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB), on the other hand, is an outrageously powerful class that essentially does the same thing. Grab a couple Shadow Hand maneuvers and you've got the same archetype with a whole lot of oomph.

[Grumman]

How about Scout with the Cityscape Web Enhancement ACFs to represent the Rogue side (giving you Skirmish instead of Sneak Attack), then use Paladin with Charging Smite?

[BigBadBugbear]

and verry important: UMD

[Heliomance]

I've never actually used UMD. I hear it's the god-skill, but I've had a couple of characters who had ranks in it and they never used it. Ever.

[Starbuck_II]

I've never actually used UMD. I hear it's the god-skill, but I've had a couple of characters who had ranks in it and they never used it. Ever.

The importance is many spells (shield, True Strike, Fist of Stone, etc) are personal and can't be cast on others. UMD lets that person who has that effect be you.

Fist of Stone cost 25 gp for +6 str (though only on one hand and for chance to hit not damage unless using slam attack). +3 to hit for a minute minimum is a godsend at level 1-10 (still good at level 11 but not as much).

[Jayngfet]

Shadowbane stuff is tailormade to this, and for flavor I'd reccomend complete scoundrel.

[Lemmingboy]

I had a Paladin/Rogue in a party I was running a campaign for. I'm not totally sure what his ability scores were set at, but the overall character worked well. At a guess I'd say:

-Str 10/12

-Decent dex of 14-16

-Either 8 or 10 for con (he always liked to play it close)

-Int 13 for combat expertise

-Wis only 11, to be upped later

-and anything else into Cha.

I the first thing he bought was a Mwk mithral breastplate, to give good armour and high dex capability. We were using 30 point buy to give a more epic feel to the thing.

He was also immensely difficult to kill. So I got him to kill himself (trap worked better than I'd hoped).

[Person_Man]

There's also nothing stopping you from playing a Paladin 3 and saying that you grew up as an orphan criminal whatever, or play a Rogue 3 devoted to a Paladin code of ethics. Or you could play a re-fluffed Crusader, Swordsage, Beguiler, Factotum, Incarnate, or Psychic Rogue. Any of them would be a good option.

[Ossian]

The "martial" rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana worked pretty well with a few NPCs of mine and one of the best played PCs I have had the honor to DM.

HERE

You lose sneak attack, but if you are in heavy armor you don't really care, but you get lots of nice feats, and the ton of skill points the rogue has at level 1.

Up to 4 levels of rogue this way mean 8+1+0 (int bonus) x4 = 36+9+9+9=63 SKILL POINTS and 4 fighter's feats at the cost of just 1 point of BAB. If you do

ROG 1
PAL 1
PAL 2
ROG 2
ROG 3
ROG 4
etc...

You even get the Weapon focus + Weapon Specialization (I am assuming the rogue having access to the fighter's Bonus Feats is treated as a fighter of same level for the purposes of qualifying for a feat).

A good medium armor still gets you a nice AC and uses the Dex, and a Rogue has lots of social skills that benefit from the Pally's high CHA.

Con would be nice, and I would favor it over strength.

Int can be +0

M.

[Scipio]

Which:
Open lock? Not against code
Bluff? Paladins can bluff (even lie) only gross violations count against you. But yes, you could just stop doing it if this is iffy.
Pick Pocket? Not against code.

Actually the paladin code is pretty specific about lying.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

[lsfreak]

Agree with Person_Man. Stay a rogue, say you're a paladin. You don't have to take a class to fill the archetype. Sneak attack is partly you knowing where to hit, partly divine insight into the nature of evil. Rogue special abilities or avenger/assassin spells are now proof of your deity's support for your cause, a bit of divine intervention when you need it. And so on.

[Runestar]

Is there some way of giving your rogue a more divine bent?

Complete champion has some divine-themed rogue abilities, but they don't seem too inspiring

[Splendor]

See if you can take the Alternative class feature for rogues from Dungeonscape (pg 13) you lose trap sense and gain Penetrating Strike; Whenever you flank a creature that is immune to extra damage from sneak attacks, you still deal extra
damage equal to half your normal sneak attack dice.