Vaarsuvius's Giant Soldiers

[Petrocorus]

I was looking on archives. On the comics 427.

I was pondering, mass bear's endurance and mass bull's strength are 6th level, mass enlarge person is 4th level.
I don't know much DnD 3.5, but do you think if there is something better than V could have done with 2 6th level spells and one 4th level spell?

[BatRobin]

Remember, V still had some strategy back then and had probably used most of hir spells during other parts of the fight.

[BRC]

I was looking on archives. On the comics 427.

I was pondering, mass bear's endurance and mass bull's strength are 6th level, mass enlarge person is 4th level.
I don't know much DnD 3.5, but do you think if there is something better than V could have done with 2 6th level spells and one 4th level spell?

It depends on which spells V had prepared. Considering that V expected to be fighting in a mass battle, it makes sense for hir to prepare those spells, which would augment the strength of the soldiers around her.

[Noble Savant]

These spells were probably a very effective use of those slots. Sure, he could of blown the 4th level slot on Wall of Fire, which would of suited his School and would of blocked the breach effectively. If he had the Swift Concentration skill trick, then even more points go towards Wall of Fire.

A Summon Monster VI might of been nice in the 6th level slot, summoning a Large Air Elemental to use Whirlwind. The average Hobgoblin warrior would need a 15 or higher to save against it, and would die to the average damage of the whirlwind. Assuming things work along the average, the Whirlwind could of killed around 60 Hobgoblins, before turning back into an elemental and fighting them for quite a while with its high AC and Damage Reduction.

Really though, his spell choice was quite efficient, especially with all the other weak caster around to bolster the giant doom soldiers.

[Twitchel]

We have to remember that this is a comic, and that there must be some considerations on the part of the Giant, both aesthetic and plot-oriented; the Giants were pretty cool looking, and the charge of Death Knight required the 436 and then 437 required the pile of corpses, which would not have been provided with a Wall of Flame barrier.

In short: the soldiers were enlarged in order to show how many casualties Team Evil was willing to take at that point in the battle, to be contrasted with 451, in which RC decides to conserve the lives of his troops; i.e. for reasons of plot.

[NerfTW]

V also had all those potions of heroism saved up, so any strategy is going to be focused around using them. It would have been a waste not to.

[Dusk Eclipse]

<snip>

A Summon Monster VI might of been nice in the 6th level slot, summoning a Large Air Elemental to use Whirlwind. The average Hobgoblin warrior would need a 15 or higher to save against it, and would die to the average damage of the whirlwind. Assuming things work along the average, the Whirlwind could of killed around 60 Hobgoblins, before turning back into an elemental and fighting them for quite a while with its high AC and Damage Reduction.

Really though, his spell choice was quite efficient, especially with all the other weak caster around to bolster the giant doom soldiers.

V has banned conjuration, so no summon monster for her

[Petrocorus]

These spells were probably a very effective use of those slots. Sure, he could of blown the 4th level slot on Wall of Fire, which would of suited his School and would of blocked the breach effectively. If he had the Swift Concentration skill trick, then even more points go towards Wall of Fire.

That's a nice idea. But what is the Swift Concentration skill trick?

Really though, his spell choice was quite efficient, especially with all the other weak caster around to bolster the giant doom soldiers.

I may have explained myself quite poorly. My question was purely neutral, not a critic to his tactic, only pondering if we could come up with a better one.

[Orzel]

With conjuration banned and using core, V used the best cast and forget combo for killing lots of level 1s. Killing lots of level 1s is usually conjuration or evocation deal; but the latter requires space, putting oneself in danger, and kills fewer targets. Conjuration just needs caster levels and weak targets. Transmutation is third for mass kill and functions like conjureration.

[jidasfire]

While some sort of poison cloud would have been better, I'm way past the point at which I know what spell belongs to what school (I was a 2nd Ed. player). Still, V's strategy was a good one, beaten only by the fact that somehow Redcloak managed to just build a Death Knight on the fly, which is patently absurd. Death Knights aren't (or shouldn't be) something any old mid-level cleric can create. They're ridiculously powerful, and worthy of being villains in their own right. Honestly, that (and the Titanium elementals) was the main thing during the war arc that I had to cry foul over. Sure, the villains were going to win no matter what, but I always felt that part of their victory was unfair.

[Yuki Akuma]

While some sort of poison cloud would have been better, I'm way past the point at which I know what spell belongs to what school (I was a 2nd Ed. player).

If it summons an actual thing into existence, most likely it's Conjuration, which V has barred. Cloudkill, for instance, is Conjuration.

If it just creates energy like fire, it's generally Evocation. Except when it's not (damnit, Orb of Fire).

somehow Redcloak managed to just build a Death Knight on the fly, which is patently absurd. Death Knights aren't (or shouldn't be) something any old mid-level cleric can create. They're ridiculously powerful, and worthy of being villains in their own right. Honestly, that (and the Titanium elementals) was the main thing during the war arc that I had to cry foul over. Sure, the villains were going to win no matter what, but I always felt that part of their victory was unfair.

Redcloak isn't some mid-level cleric. He's the High Priest of the Dark One, and wears an artifact-level cloak. He's one of the most powerful characters in the comic. Far more powerful than the Order currently is.

[jidasfire]

Redcloak isn't some mid-level cleric. He's the High Priest of the Dark One, and wears an artifact-level cloak. He's one of the most powerful characters in the comic. Far more powerful than the Order currently is.

Fair enough. Redcloak is powerful, and a plot-central character with decent advantages, but he's certainly not "far more powerful" than the Order. He's maybe two or three above them. Even acknowledging that, being able to create a Death Knight out of thin air is similar to being able to create a lich out of thin air. They're incredibly powerful and unbalancing, and even the existence of one should be the subject of an actual story, not just something easily done while no one is looking.

[The Dark Fiddler]

...pile of corpses, which would not have been provided with a Wall of Flame barrier.

Unless my understanding of fire is outdated, there still would have been corpses. And then the pile would have been on fire.

[Kish]

Fair enough. Redcloak is powerful, and a plot-central character with decent advantages, but he's certainly not "far more powerful" than the Order. He's maybe two or three above them. Even acknowledging that, being able to create a Death Knight out of thin air is similar to being able to create a lich out of thin air.

He did that, too. I mean, not really out of thin air. There was this sorcerer named Xykon there beforehand. But if it's the same as that, the only explanation needed for the Death Knight would be, "I had this guy..."

[Shhalahr Windrider]

That's a nice idea. But what is the Swift Concentration skill trick?

Skill Tricks are a concept introduced in Complete Scoundrel. They are functionally mini-feats that one can purchase with skill points. Swift Concentration lets you Concentrate to maintain a spell as a swift action once per encounter. In this case, V could have cast wall of fire and while still concentrating to increase the wall’s duration, V could cast one more spell.

If it just creates energy like fire, it's generally Evocation. Except when it's not (damnit, Orb of Fire).

Well, if you can Conjure Positive Energy from one inner plane, why can’t you conjure Fire from another inner plane?

(Of course, I have yet to see an example of Conjuring Negative Energy from yet another inner plane. For some reason, that gets its own school. )

Unless my understanding of fire is outdated, there still would have been corpses. And then the pile would have been on fire.

Except the hobgoblins would have known they couldn’t injure a wall of fire and and stayed away. So it would have only killed those (maybe) who were in its area of effect at the moment it was cast. Not much of a pile.

On the other hand, 13 giant humans can be injured. So you might find a few hobgoblins foolhardy enough to throw themselves at that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fair enough. Redcloak is powerful, and a plot-central character with decent advantages, but he's certainly not "far more powerful" than the Order. He's maybe two or three above them. Even acknowledging that, being able to create a Death Knight out of thin air is similar to being able to create a lich out of thin air. They're incredibly powerful and unbalancing, and even the existence of one should be the subject of an actual story, not just something easily done while no one is looking.

Did you know that Redcloak can do things off-panel? It's true!

There are ways of making Death Knights. Redcloak can cast ninth-level spells, so he can certainly turn someone into a Death Knight.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There are ways of making Death Knights. Redcloak can cast ninth-level spells, so he can certainly turn someone into a Death Knight.

Did I miss something? I was under the impression the highest level spell we’ve seen him cast was 7th level. The only reference to Redcloak casting a 9th-level spell of which I am aware is Belkar making delirium-induced speculation.

[Snake-Aes]

Did I miss something? I was under the impression the highest level spell we’ve seen him cast was 7th level. The only reference to Redcloak casting a 9th-level spell of which I am aware is Belkar making delirium-induced speculation.

Isn't Extend Summon 8 a level 9 spell? Extension metamagic is an extra level.

[Herald Alberich]

Isn't Extend Summon 8 a level 9 spell? Extension metamagic is an extra level.

It was Extended Summon Monster 7, not 8. Darn Roman numerals. But at level 8, that is more powerful than the level 7s he's cast otherwise.

[Snake-Aes]

If only I could bother with the images from here i'd be able to tell.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Ah, yes. 8th level spells capability. But still no 9th?

[derfenrirwolv]

It was extremely effective. If it hadn't been for the heceva they probably could have held out against the goblins all day. 20 feet of reach, and presumably if you're a leveled fighter using a halberd you took combat reflexes, thats a lot more damage than a wall of fire is going to do.

The oots is core unless assumed otherwise, so you can't blame V for not having a trick from non core material.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It was extremely effective. If it hadn't been for the heceva they probably could have held out against the goblins all day

No they wouldn’t have. The spells in question are a minute per level. They only would have only been able to hold the gap in that fashion for 13 minutes.

And it was the Death Knight that broke past them. Not the huecuva.

[derfenrirwolv]

Meh, they're all humans skeletons they all look alike

[Morthis]

Except the hobgoblins would have known they couldn’t injure a wall of fire and and stayed away. So it would have only killed those (maybe) who were in its area of effect at the moment it was cast. Not much of a pile.

On the other hand, 13 giant humans can be injured. So you might find a few hobgoblins foolhardy enough to throw themselves at that.

I dunno, to me it looks like they're purposely sent to their death just to build a ramp. Sending them into fire or giant humans, doesn't matter, you'll still create a pile.

[factotum]

I dunno, to me it looks like they're purposely sent to their death just to build a ramp. Sending them into fire or giant humans, doesn't matter, you'll still create a pile.

The reason they were doing that was to provide a ramp for the Death Knight. I doubt he'd have wanted to ride through a wall of magical fire! Decapitating a few monstrous humans, sure...

[Nimrod's Son]

And it was the Death Knight that broke past them. Not the huecuva.

I always thought it was Xykon.

Meh, they're all humans skeletons they all look alike

You can tell them apart by the teeth, apparently. Or at least, Haley can.

[Petrocorus]

By the way, in what manual can i find the Huecuva, the Death Knight, and the Eye of Fear and Flames?

I don't remember having seen the in the SRD?

[Trixie]

Um, Redcloak does point to exact books he needed to create them. Simply look his explanation up.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I dunno, to me it looks like they're purposely sent to their death just to build a ramp. Sending them into fire or giant humans, doesn't matter, you'll still create a pile.

That’s why the Death Knight sent them, sure. But I doubt he would have gotten much cooperation if that’s what he told the sacrificial hobgoblins directly. It’s so much easier to send a subordinate to his or her death when that subordinate thinks there’s a chance of survival.

I don't remember having seen the in the SRD?

They are all non-core.

As mentioned, their respective source books are shown in comic, though it doesn’t indicate which is which.

• Death Kight: Monster Manual II
• Huecuva: Fiend Folio
• Eye of Fear and Flame: Book of Vile Darkness