[4e] Vehicle stats?

[Choco]

I was wondering if there are any vehicle stats or seige weapons of any kind in 4e. I havent found any so far, but seeing as how the focus in 4e seems to be all about character combat I would not be surprised if they didn't exist (yet..).

Specifically I was looking to see if there were any airship stats anywhere, and skimmed the Eberron books but couldn't find any (maybe I am just blind). So, does anything like that exist in 4e yet, or has this been left up to DM fiat/homebrew/whatever the dramatic moment requires?

[DarkSetzer]

The Seekers of the Ashen Crown adventure has stats for an airship somewhere in it... I'm running the adventure now, can't recall exactly when in the adventure the airship stats are used, but they are in there.

[Tiki Snakes]

I was wondering if there are any vehicle stats or seige weapons of any kind in 4e. I havent found any so far, but seeing as how the focus in 4e seems to be all about character combat I would not be surprised if they didn't exist (yet..).

Specifically I was looking to see if there were any airship stats anywhere, and skimmed the Eberron books but couldn't find any (maybe I am just blind). So, does anything like that exist in 4e yet, or has this been left up to DM fiat/homebrew/whatever the dramatic moment requires?

If I remember correctly, there is infact a little bit of vehicle-stat-goodness in AV1. Simple, short section though it is.

[Blackfang108]

If I remember correctly, there is infact a little bit of vehicle-stat-goodness in AV1. Simple, short section though it is.

There's some more in Manual of the Planes. (Planar Dromond, SPELLJAMMER)

[Choco]

Ah, thanks guys. Looks like 4e is currently short on the vehicles as I suspected, but least they got something to go off of in case I need to homebrew more.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Ah, thanks guys. Looks like 4e is currently short on the vehicles as I suspected, but least they got something to go off of in case I need to homebrew more.

Well... what kind of rules did you need?

[Choco]

Well... what kind of rules did you need?

Well, basically full combat stats like they had in 3.5 is what I am looking for, to simulate ship-to-ship combat for instance.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, basically full combat stats like they had in 3.5 is what I am looking for, to simulate ship-to-ship combat for instance.

I guess the real question is: to what end do you want to simulate ship-to-ship combat?

If you'd like to run a Naval Wargame, you might want to stat out the ships like characters & monsters and do things that way.

If you're more interested in the PCs swashbuckling and so-forth, it's probably simpler to either make some sort of random table for "environmental effects" from naval combat or use story-based mechanics to determine what's going on with the big ships.

Honestly, 4e is better suited to modeling adventuring parties than mass warfare.

[Choco]

I was thinking a hybrid of both. Obviously if the PC's were all on deck fighting, I could just fiat everything going on around them, but when they are in control of the ship it would be like your first example, where I will probably have to stat everything out as a character. Right now I am just looking for some rules to use as a baseline.

From what it looks like, AV1 seems to do just that, so thanks for that one Tiki Snakes!

[Oracle_Hunter]

I was thinking a hybrid of both. Obviously if the PC's were all on deck fighting, I could just fiat everything going on around them, but when they are in control of the ship it would be like your first example, where I will probably have to stat everything out as a character. Right now I am just looking for some rules to use as a baseline.

From what it looks like, AV1 seems to do just that, so thanks for that one Tiki Snakes!

Note that 4e doesn't have Hardness, so be sure to account for that. Otherwise Kobolds with spears are going to sink your Ship of the Line

[Gralamin]

Note that 4e doesn't have Hardness, so be sure to account for that. Otherwise Kobolds with spears are going to sink your Ship of the Line

Actually, by RAW, the Damage Resistance of objects is up to the DM

[Oracle_Hunter]

Actually, by RAW, the Damage Resistance of objects is up to the DM

Yeah, that's not a system.

It's kind of odd that, considering how often adventurers break stuff, WotC decided not to include a useful system for dealing with object damage.

[Tiki Snakes]

Yeah, that's not a system.

It's kind of odd that, considering how often adventurers break stuff, WotC decided not to include a useful system for dealing with object damage.

The problem with tying down fiddly stuff like that is you can create rather silly things by accident.

See adventurers tunneling through ten foot walls of rock in seconds due to carrying an adamantine spork.

Easier to just leave in the hands of the DM.

Also, you're welcome Choco.

[Gralamin]

Yeah, that's not a system.

It's kind of odd that, considering how often adventurers break stuff, WotC decided not to include a useful system for dealing with object damage.

Never said it was a system, just pointed out what you were saying wasn't RAW

[Oracle_Hunter]

The problem with tying down fiddly stuff like that is you can create rather silly things by accident.

See adventurers tunneling through ten foot walls of rock in seconds due to carrying an adamantine spork.

Yeah, previously I would have said that you could make sensible rules that avoid just that (like not making adamantine have stupid-powerful properties) but I just ran into a situation in my own system where Minions couldn't chop through a wooden door with handaxes

Oh well, live and learn.

[Yakk]

To homebrew it...

1> I'd place players front and center. A Ranger-archer should be better used shooting arrows than manning a Ballista. And a party of 5 characters should have significant impact on the scale of battle.

2> To that end, I'd make ships for a given level roughly the equivalent of solos at that level. Smaller ships (like skiffs) might be elites. The crew might be abstracted into the ships' HP, or separate (note, however, that defeating either the crew or the ship defeats both -- and giving them separate HP pools means that working on one doesn't help defeating the other, which is counter-productive).

So if you want players on a ship...

A level 5 ship would be statted out as a solo companion character. It possibly has some crew. It would have "melee" attacks, it would have "ranged" attacks.

The "ranged" attacks should get a slight bonus (only a small one) from having a PC command them, for the cases where your non-ranged character is in a ranged battle on ship. Characters with effective ranged attacks should be making ranged attacks rather than using the ship.

Opponent ships should be stated up as monsters, with both melee and ranged attacks -- the melee attacks representing what happens when you board the ship.

Possibly give ships "damage thresholds" at which a bad thing happens -- the ship loses a point of move, or it loses attacks, etc. This is backwards from standard solo design, but it seems like a good idea.