[4e] Comment this guy

[evincarzed]

Hello chaps! Could you comment this guy?

Human hybrid Warlock/Swordmage

Str 13
Con 18
Dex 14
Int 10 - dumb. too dumb for a swordmage, right?
Wis 8
Cha 14

hybrid talent - swordmage warding
Armor proeficiency - chainmail

Class features
Swordmage warding
eldritch pact - hybrid (vestige)
warlock's curse - hybrid
hybrid warlock's reflex
Swordbond
Swordmage aegis (shielding)

it makes AC 17 with glaive or 19 with longsword. Fort 15, Ref 14 and will 14.
31 hp at 1st level.

Powers: (where the catch is)
At will:
Eldritch strike (con) x CA - arcane, weapon, BASIC attack!
does the weapon damage + CON bonus and slide the target 1 square. +7 with long sword or +6 with glaive (and reach, useful for the feats on second level). Bread and butter of this guy.
Eyes of the vestige - for ranged, cursing without minor actions.
Luring strike - shift 1 square after or before the attack. Not really probable to hit and get the additional slide 1, shift 1. +3 with longsword, +2 glaive.

encounter:
Clarion Call - nice close blast and cumulative Temp. HP.

Daily:
Lashing Asp - nice venom-spreading, CON mod on everyone around

On level 2, ethereal stride utility and white lotus hindrance feat.
Combined with REACH from the glaive (best with the STAGGERING quality + Eldritch strike slide 1), the non adjacent enemies could not just shift closer to enter the adjacent square and would need to walk, what opens nice AoO possibilities.
If the AoO hits, with Eldritch strike + Staggering glaive, the attacker would be slided back 2+ squares and just lost 3 movement units.

This guy would go for stance dailyes and teleport encounters from swordmage list, while picking encounter attacks and daily vestiges from Warlock (for the extra damage of curse). His idea is mark the enemy with aegis and keep him away.

What do you think or suggest?

*edit: AC changed. +6 chain, +3 swordmage warding with longsword (19)

[tcrudisi]

Well, I'm away from books currently, but how many levels do you plan on playing him? I mean, have you looked in advance to make sure that there aren't any bad levels where you are forced to take a SM power where it's completely based on Int? That would be my main concern, somewhere like level 5 where maybe you are stuck taking a SM daily power and there would be no decent choices.

[evincarzed]

I am nor too concerned about it, cause i plan to get the cannith googles head item, and trade any useless encounter / daily for darkvision. But with the builder, i didint found any inconvenience till 11th.
But i Admit that didint went further...

[tcrudisi]

Combined with REACH from the glaive (best with the STAGGERING quality + Eldritch strike slide 1), the non adjacent enemies could not just shift closer to enter the adjacent square and would need to walk, what opens nice AoO possibilities.

Just one thing about this: walking into a square that an opponent threatens does not incur an OA. It requires leaving a square that an opponent threatens.

Or? While the White Lotus Hindrance is a nice feat, I get the feeling that it doesn't quite work as nicely as you think it does. It really only prevents them from shifting to try to get into a flanking position... but this is incredibly easy to avoid anyway. It's a good feat, but if your DM is good at tactics and plays the monsters like they are, then you might get 1 OA every 3 or 4 combats from the feat.

[evincarzed]

I know about that.
The question is that, with range, i can threaten the adjacent squares AND the ones around it. The problem is that i cant do AoO if the enemy is not adjacent, even with range.
When the enemy LEAVES the outer squares and ENTER the inner squares (adjacent ones) without shifting, they fulfill the AoO requirements (the enemy just leaved an theratened square and is adjacent to me)

*edit: and i can shift on my turn too, in addition to the slide 2+ of eldritch strike

[tcrudisi]

I know about that.
The question is that, with range, i can threaten the adjacent squares AND the ones around it. The problem is that i cant do AoO if the enemy is not adjacent, even with range.
When the enemy LEAVES the outer squares and ENTER the inner squares (adjacent ones) without shifting, they fulfill the AoO requirements (the enemy just leaved an theratened square and is adjacent to me)

*edit: and i can shift on my turn too, in addition to the slide 2+ of eldritch strike

How are you planning on getting Threatening Reach? It's a very difficult ability to pick up, although I do know Swordmages can get a couple of powers like that... but I thought it was all paragon or epic level. Just having reach alone does not give you threatening reach.

[evincarzed]

Dude, there is a misunderstanding here...

MM2, Threatening Reach: A creature that has threatening reach can make an opportunity attack against any enemy within its reach that provokes an opportunity attack.

With reach, you threaten all squares you could attack, you just cant do AoO on them, cause by the definition on PHB, the AoO could be made only if the enemy is in the squares that are adjacent to you.

The character is not intended to do AoO on the "outer" squares, just in the "inner" ones, when the enemies get closer without shifting. If it had the threatening reach, it would be able do do AoO in ALL squares.

[Tiki Snakes]

A Swordmage's primary attribute is intelligence.

You've gone for int of 10.

I'm reading this right, am I? Cause I must be missing something here.

[evincarzed]

This guy is kinda going for his warlock side, with eldritch strike (con based).

[Sir Homeslice]

You didn't think your genius plan through, genius.

Warlocks use Int.

[AtopTheMountain]

Yeah, Int is a pretty important secondary ability for Warlocks. Trying to get by on just Con would be like a 4E Sorcerer with 20 Charisma and 10 Strength and Dex.

[evincarzed]

hmmm... for what? extra hp? extra squares of teleport/slide/push? extra, extra extra... Thats what they are, extra.
He can just pick powers that dont use it (like armor of agathis. 10 temp HP, + int IF infernal pact). Ask any starlock about it.

Anyway, im not a genius, neither the char. he has 10 INT
Thats why i created this post, guys. comment.
*edit: i guess i could put some on int, instead of dex. A handy boost on the swordmage side too, at the cost of initiative.

[Sir Homeslice]

hmmm... for what? extra hp? extra squares of teleport/slide/push? extra, extra extra... Thats what they are, extra.
He can just pick powers that dont use it (like armor of agathis. 10 temp HP, + int IF infernal pact). Ask any starlock about it.

Anyway, im not a genius, neither the char. he has 10 INT
Thats why i created this post, guys. comment.
*edit: i guess i could put some on int, instead of dex. A handy boost on the swordmage side too.

Can you redo your character? As it stands, you could grab scale proficiency and at least on the AC front you won't be completely screwed over.

P.S: Starlocks use INT too.

[evincarzed]

Scale? He has chain, wich means +6 ac with one feat and no use to DEX/INT as ac boost. Another feat to get +7 and still dont have it?
How does it "unscrew" the guy?

[Telok]

A couple of points here.

1) Threatening Reach is a monster ability. Player characters get opportunity attacks only on adjacent enemies leaving squares without shifting. Just having a reach weapon will not give you threatening reach. You need a power, feat, or class ability to get it. This is a big difference from 3.5.

2) You don't seem to be gaining anything from the chain armor and hybrid vigor feats except some AC. If you want to hybrid for armor then go with the paladin hybrid and get plate and heavy shields for one feat. Plus you'll get the charisma synergy and access to the Crimson Legion/Fire feats.

3) If you're wedded to Warlock|Swordmage then you probably want to go with a Con>Int>Chr build. You have no use for that 13 Str and your Dex is only giving you +10% initative (unless they are required for a feat). The warlock powers have +Int modifier enhancements and the swordmage at-will, encounter, and daily that you have to take will be more useful.

[tcrudisi]

Dude, there is a misunderstanding here...

MM2, Threatening Reach: A creature that has threatening reach can make an opportunity attack against any enemy within its reach that provokes an opportunity attack.

With reach, you threaten all squares you could attack, you just cant do AoO on them, cause by the definition on PHB, the AoO could be made only if the enemy is in the squares that are adjacent to you.

The character is not intended to do AoO on the "outer" squares, just in the "inner" ones, when the enemies get closer without shifting. If it had the threatening reach, it would be able do do AoO in ALL squares.

I'm very confused now. Here's how I understand the rules to work (and I feel it's important to this character since it feels as though this will be one of your big tricks):

Ignoring 3d for simplicity sake, you can only make OA's against targets that are within the 9 squares adjacent to you. Ignoring other ways (like using a ranged attack in melee), when it comes to moving, they have to leave a square adjacent to you in order to provoke the OA. White Lotus Hindrance makes all the squares adjacent to you difficult terrain. To exit difficult terrain, it takes no extra movement. To enter difficult terrain, it takes an extra square of movement, so no shifting (barring powers that let you shift multiple squares).

So all of this means that the enemy cannot shift into a square adjacent to you. If you have moved away from them, they will simply walk into an adjacent square. Provided they never leave an adjacent square to you, they will not incur the OA.

As such, the reach weapon really doesn't do much in this instance, unfortunately. It doesn't increase the characters ability to use an OA. The longsword is +1 to hit over the glaive at a cost of half a point of damage. I would strongly recommend using the longsword primarily and the glaive situationally.

Also, I second everyone's input on Int being more important than Dex. As a defender, it's not absolutely vital that you go before everything else, so losing the 2 points to initiative isn't huge. I feel the gains outweigh the losses with this switch.

A couple of points here.

2) You don't seem to be gaining anything from the chain armor and hybrid vigor feats except some AC. If you want to hybrid for armor then go with the paladin hybrid and get plate and heavy shields for one feat. Plus you'll get the charisma synergy and access to the Crimson Legion/Fire feats.

3) If you're wedded to Warlock|Swordmage then you probably want to go with a Con>Int>Chr build. You have no use for that 13 Str and your Dex is only giving you +10% initative (unless they are required for a feat). The warlock powers have +Int modifier enhancements and the swordmage at-will, encounter, and daily that you have to take will be more useful.

2) I'm betting it has something to do with flavor and abilities (warlocks and SM's being great at teleporting), although from a purely AC perspective, you are correct. Normally SM's would have the top AC, but with the below-average Int (for a SM, anyway), his AC does suffer and plate + shield would be optimal.

3) When I was first looking over the character, I thought there was a reason he picked 13 Str -- perhaps for a feat prerequisite. I was going to suggest dropping it to 12 and taking that feat when he gets the bump at level 11. But unless he has something in mind specifically, I think your suggestion is best. OP, would you care to comment on the reasoning behind the 13 Str so we can better assist you?

[evincarzed]

Ahh,
Nice points.
The 13 str is for the chain, wich would be good for the +6 ac without the +4 INT and +2 leather.
To get the same AC 19, he would need to go INT 18 (+4) and use leather. That would let his Wis/Char around 10 and mess his defenses. To lower CON would diminish his eldritch strike (a nice basic attack) and the damage-reducting effect of aegis of shielding in one or two points.

About the threatening reach, the char dont have it, else he would be able to do AoO on enemies non-adjacent.
But he does threaten the squares with reach (as he can attack them, as written in PHB), he is just not able do AoO on them, because he is not adjacent to them (as written in the PHB).
As listed in the pictures showing threatening areas, dragons and ogres threaten the squares they could attack, but cant do AoO on them, only the adjacent ones if they dont have the threatening reach feat.
Once they leave the "outer" threatened squares and enter the "inner" threatened squares, doesn't they meet the requirements of the AoO (leave a threatened square and be adjacent to you)?

About the Paladin hybrd armor, really the paladin armor hybrid is nice, but nicer with CHA basec chars. I have one of them too.

About the CON>INT>CHA, i am missing the point of CHA. Would you explain? The INT is not useful on the powers he has already, and in the builder i could pick some nice ones that doesnt involve them too. Only problem was the 7th (or something like that) level swordmage encounter, wich was inevitable.

[evincarzed]

As tcrudisi said, the reach thing is the main trick, with the eldritch strike.
I guess i will need to ask the wizards forum about the definition of "threatened square".
Does anyone knows about any errata related to it?

[tcrudisi]

About the threatening reach, the char dont have it, else he would be able to do AoO on enemies non-adjacent.
But he does threaten the squares with reach (as he can attack them, as written in PHB), he is just not able do AoO on them, because he is not adjacent to them (as written in the PHB).
As listed in the pictures showing threatening areas, dragons and ogres threaten the squares they could attack, but cant do AoO on them, only the adjacent ones if they dont have the threatening reach feat.
Once they leave the "outer" threatened squares and enter the "inner" threatened squares, doesn't they meet the requirements of the AoO (leave a threatened square and be adjacent to you)?

Here's the relevant section from the D&DI compendium:

If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.

So, to answer your question: no. To provoke the OA from movement, they must leave (except by push, pull, slide, teleport, or shift) a square that is adjacent to you.

I believe this is something they clarified through errata, actually.

*edit* White Lotus Hindrance is still a good feat. It does limit the mobility of your foes, which is always a good thing. However, I would not recommend taking it with the second feat. There are others that are better (at least from an optimization perspective). If you want to be really mean, consider White Lotus Riposte -- if they hit you back, they take Con mod. damage. If they hit your allies, they do Con mod. less damage. (Once again, there are better combos than this, but I like it because it puts the foes in a lose/lose situation).

[evincarzed]

oops, case closed, no AoO for me :(
TY tcrudisi

[tcrudisi]

oops, case closed, no AoO for me :(
TY tcrudisi

I hope it doesn't change your character concept too much. However, may I suggest making the Longsword your primary weapon instead of the Glaive? The Glaive is nice to have in certain circumstances, but the Longswords +1 to hit is just far superior mathematically to the Glaive. Plus, if I'm remembering correctly (my books are back in America, but I used to be a rules lawyer ... heh), you can't get combat advantage from flanking with a Glaive when you are using the reach aspect of the weapon. IE: to flank you have to be adjacent to the foe anyway, which means you won't use the reach aspect very often -- so the +1 to hit is far better than +0.5 damage that the Glaive gives.

[Tiki Snakes]

Longsword plus swordmage warding, Int of 16, leaves you a SINGLE point behind the original Build for AC.

If you really want, better to spend a feat on Hide proficiency, as you end up with the same AC, and a square faster movement. Also, as it's keying off of your INT, (and in this build, you are treating Int as a primary/secondary ability) you will be increasing AC slightly faster simply due to your stat raising.

Personally I'd just stick with my perfectly decent ac of 18, and take whatever other feat I was interested in. This would free me up to have an Okay Charisma, and buff my will defence a little as I'd no longer need 13 str and a feat just to get 1 extra point of AC.

[Thajocoth]

Glaive is a 2-handed weapon. Your AC decreases by 2 when you hold it, as you don't have a free hand.

[tcrudisi]

Glaive is a 2-handed weapon. Your AC decreases by 2 when you hold it, as you don't have a free hand.

This actually reminds me about something. A Longsword is a versatile weapon, yes? In this case, it actually matches the damage that a Glaive does.

+3 to hit but 1d8 damage (Longsword)
+2 to hit but 2d4 damage (Glaive)

1d8 = 4.5 avg dmg
2d4 = 5 avg dmg

However, a Longsword is versatile. It's a free action to hold it with 2 hands and a free action to let go with 1 hand. When you hold it with 2 hands, you get +1 damage.

So, basically, when you swing with a melee attack, you announce "As a free action I'm holding the sword with 2 hands." Then you roll to hit and damage, adding +1 damage for it being used with 2 hands. As soon as you finish, you announce, "I'm letting go with my off-hand", which reactivates your Swordmage Warding feature and increases your AC by 2 again.

It's cheesy, but is allowed by RAW. Your DM may throw a book at you. Of course there are far worse things than this, but to me it feels like such a blatant violation of what Swordmages are supposed to be that it just feels dirty and thus warrants a book-throwing.

[evincarzed]

Doesnt hide proeficiency requires str 13?
If the glaive is out, then longsword is in, and the AC would be fine with 18 (+2 leather, +3 warding, +3 int, perfectly doable with arrays 16 CON +2 human, 16 INT, whatever CHA).
No need for the feat of armor proeficiency, freeing it for focused expertise: longsword or white lotus mobility. A free shift is a free shift after all
Gonna need to check if the staggering ability is avaiable for longswords...

*edit: nasty tcrudisi! never tought about it. Something kendo-like attack would boost the damage, then go esgrimist again.

[Tiki Snakes]

Interesting point. I think it's not exactly the worst type of cheese, because switching to two hands for your real strikes makes sense, physically speaking. I think the fluid, shifting stance implied by repeatedly changing up your grip meshes very well with a swordmage's flavour, actually. Reminds me of the kind of stuff you often see in lightsaber fighting.

I'd certainly allow it.

[Asbestos]

I'm confused what the Swordmage is bringing into this beyond worthless powers.

Why not just be straight Warlock? Use the feat in Arcane Power that lets you use heavy blades as implements and then build a standard melee-lock build. You're golden after that.