Need a sweet paladin build [3e]

[faceroll]

My friend wants to roll up a paladin, and I want to make sure he can make the most out of a mediocre class.

I'm thinking something like mystic fire knight substitution levels, practiced spell caster, battle blessing, and sword of the arcane order. He'll need a level in a prestige class that gets him turning, so he can use divine might.

Point buy will be very high. I expect he will have 2 18s and 2 16s, at least. Race will likely be lesser aasimar.

Starting level will be somewhere from 6-8, and he will get no magic gear besides whatever lame crap the DM decides to hand out (probably a +2 sword and +2 armor).

Anyway, let's see your paladin builds! No ToB or MiC, please, since we lack those books (unfortunately). We have most other books, though.

Oh yeah, he doesn't want a mounted character, and he doesn't want a small one. He wants to do respectable damage with a big sword and have a good AC.

[Flickerdart]

Paladin gets Turn Undead for free, so you don't have to worry about that. You can also take the Charging Smite variant to trade in the warhorse.

With those kind of stats and Lesser Planecheese, he can get 4 18s, meaning all his bases are covered. Most of the Paladin's weakness cones from needing 4 stats for everything, but with that kind of PB, he won't need to worry.

[gallagher]

Paladin gets Turn Undead for free, so you don't have to worry about that. You can also take the Charging Smite variant to trade in the warhorse.

With those kind of stats and Lesser Planecheese, he can get 4 18s, meaning all his bases are covered. Most of the Paladin's weakness cones from needing 4 stats for everything, but with that kind of PB, he won't need to worry.

there is a varient, in complete champion IIRC, that allows you to change out spellcasting for fighter feats. its at like, 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th if i recall

[faceroll]

I just ran the hospitaler class in 3.0 by with the DM, and he says go for it, which is AWESOME. That gets full access to the cleric list, two domains, turning, progresses lay on hands & spellcasting, full BAB, and 4 bonus feats.

Paladin gets Turn Undead for free, so you don't have to worry about that. You can also take the Charging Smite variant to trade in the warhorse.

I'm trading turning in for a bonus 1st level spell, spellcraft as a class skill, +2 caster level, and the ability to make smite evil to force concentration checks on spell casters (DC = 10+ paladin level +charisma mod+ spell level).

Where's charging smite coming from?

With those kind of stats and Lesser Planecheese, he can get 4 18s, meaning all his bases are covered. Most of the Paladin's weakness cones from needing 4 stats for everything, but with that kind of PB, he won't need to worry.

Well, the class sort of runs out of cool stuff after level 5, and the rest of the party is getting cool stuff every level.

there is a varient, in complete champion IIRC, that allows you to change out spellcasting for fighter feats. its at like, 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th if i recall

I'm trying to move this guy up a tier, not down a tier. Ideally, I'd like to trade in something to get a bard's spell progression.

[Xallace]

there is a varient, in complete champion IIRC, that allows you to change out spellcasting for fighter feats. its at like, 4th, 7th, 11th, 15th if i recall

Not something I would recommend. Pally spellcasting is pretty kickin', especially given supplements.

I might suggest the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium to help with the MAD. Fist of Raziel (Book of Exalted Deeds) + Charging Smite, as well, plus Awesome Smite (Complete Champion), and bada-boom, you got a Smite-happy pally. See what the DM says about Exalted-types, though. You need an exalted feat to be a Fist of Raziel.

Mystic Fire Knight + Sword of the Arcane Order could be pretty fun, too, as you mentioned. Could be combined with the above, as well, if you like.

If Charging Smite isn't his thing, there's also Divine Spirits, which doesn't get much love, but I like it.

Edit: Charging Smite is from Player's Handbook II.

[lsfreak]

I'm trading turning in for a bonus 1st level spell, spellcraft as a class skill, +2 caster level, and the ability to make smite evil to force concentration checks on spell casters (DC = 10+ paladin level +charisma mod+ spell level).

I would suggest not doing that. Divine feats are too good. Examples: Law Devotion granting scaling +atk or +AC for one minute. Travel Devotion granting swift-action movement. Death Devotion dropping negative levels every attack.

[Greenish]

Does your friend want to play a holy warrior or a class with "paladin" in it's name?

If former, how about: Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5 (Complete Champion)/Knight of the Raven 10 (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). If you don't have Ravenloft, there are some other PrCs that grant 9/10 casting and full BAB.

[deuxhero]

Go into ur priest? Though that is more of an Ur Priest build. A charger using Charging Smite (PHB2 sub for special mount, also free in an obscure WoTC article, will get it in a bit), a valorous lance (UE I think) leap attack and other stuff gets great damage, but VERY MUCH the one trick pony. Prestige Paladin is also pretty good (compared to normal paladin)


edit:Charging Smite (bottom)

[faceroll]

I would suggest not doing that. Divine feats are too good. Examples: Law Devotion granting scaling +atk or +AC for one minute. Travel Devotion granting swift-action movement. Death Devotion dropping negative levels every attack.

Yeah, devotion feats ARE pretty spectacular. However, the first level of Hospitaler gets you two domains (war, protection, healing, glory, or domination) and turning.

I might suggest the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium to help with the MAD. Fist of Raziel (Book of Exalted Deeds) + Charging Smite, as well, plus Awesome Smite (Complete Champion), and bada-boom, you got a Smite-happy pally. See what the DM says about Exalted-types, though. You need an exalted feat to be a Fist of Raziel.

He doesn't want to play an exalted character. He wants to play a more lawful crusading knight archetype than a goody-two-shoes paladin.

Edit: Charging Smite is from Player's Handbook II.

Blast, we do not have that book.

Does your friend want to play a holy warrior or a class with "paladin" in it's name?

If former, how about: Cleric 5/Ordained Champion 5 (Complete Champion)/Knight of the Raven 10 (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft). If you don't have Ravenloft, there are some other PrCs that grant 9/10 casting and full BAB.

The latter, unfortunately. He really wants to just hit things with a sword and be charismatic and get charisma to saves. And I really want to make it so the chump I have to share XP with is pulling his weight.

Go into ur priest? Though that is more of an Ur Priest build. A charger using Charging Smite (PHB2 sub for special mount, also free in an obscure WoTC article, will get it in a bit), a valorous lance (UE I think) leap attack and other stuff gets great damage, but VERY MUCH the one trick pony. Prestige Paladin is also pretty good (compared to normal paladin)


edit:Charging Smite (bottom)

We already have two charge oriented characters in the party. The one trick is pretty situational, and we tend to accumulate a lot of characters, which clutters up battlespace, especially in dungeons. He really wants to stay away from a charge build.

[lsfreak]

Yeah, devotion feats ARE pretty spectacular. However, the first level of Hospitaler gets you two domains (war, protection, healing, glory, or domination) and turning.

Somehow read right over that. Go for it, then.

Blast, we do not have that book.

Give up mount, triple your smite damage on charges. That pretty much sums it up.

Alternatively, if you've already got a lot of melee, get the DM to rule that smite can be used on ranged weapons. There is zero reason for the melee-only restriction that paladins already have except that the WotC went with a much stricter archetype for paladins than with other classes. Actually, I think I even recall seeing a variant from Dragon (all the rules for it would be on Crystalkeep) that gives up a bit of armor to let you use smite on ranged attacks, if the DM doesn't just want to rule that you can.

[Soranar]

Which level do you start? And how high do you intend to play?

For lower level games (start 1-6, finish around level 12) , I recommend a charging mount paladin: you just deal more damage and you don't need spellcasting at all.

For higher level games (start 6+, finish 15+) I recommend the spellcasting route

A charging build would be something like this

Race: Any small race can do the trick, but strongheart Halflings tend to be better for roleplay and the extra feat

Alignment: obviously Lawful Good

template: Dragonborn of Bahamut is pretty good for any race but you lose your bonus feat for Halflings (lose Dex which you don't need, gain Con)

I recommend the immunity to paralysis and sleep option (flying isn't that important since your mount should give you flight soon enough

ACF : holy warrior (from Complete Champion), gain 4 feats from a restricted list at level 4,7,11,14

STATS (2 18s, 2 16s)

STR 16 (18)
DEX 10 (-)
CON 16 (16)
INT 8 (-)
WIS 8 (-)
CHA 18 (18)

the remaining 16 can go in either Int , Dex or Wis depending on your taste

1 Paladin Power Attack
2 Paladin
3 Paladin Divine might
4 Paladin bonus feat: Mounted combat
5 Paladin
6 Paladin Ride-by Attack
7 Paladin bonus feat: Spirited Charge

use a lance for x3 damage on a charge , since you're small you can ride a riding dog (which doesn't need to trample to attack and can wear armor as they're usually war trained, upgrade to magic mount when possible)

A riding dog is medium size so it can fit in dungeons

The spellcasting build is something like this, with the feats you mentioned

Race : lesser Aasimar
Alignment: Lawful Good

STATS

STR 16 (16)
DEX 8 (-)
CON 18 (18)
INT 14 you need 14 to cast level 4 wizard spells
WIS 18 (16)
CHA 20 (18) (you can dump it if you're allowed to take Serenity)

[faceroll]

Alternatively, if you've already got a lot of melee, get the DM to rule that smite can be used on ranged weapons. There is zero reason for the melee-only restriction that paladins already have except that the WotC went with a much stricter archetype for paladins than with other classes. Actually, I think I even recall seeing a variant from Dragon (all the rules for it would be on Crystalkeep) that gives up a bit of armor to let you use smite on ranged attacks, if the DM doesn't just want to rule that you can.

My friend wants to hit stuff with a sword, though, particularly the undead. I just paged through CC, after you pointed out how spectacular devotion feats are. Between Holy Warrior (reserve feat), law devotion, sun devotion, and knowledge devotion, he can get a really obscene bonus to damage by spending turning attempts. Couple that with ordainded champion smiting, and it's awesome!

I am going to try and convince him to go cloistered cleric of heironeous 4/ordained champion 3/hospitaler 1. Little feat deprived, and has a heavy dependency on swift actions, but gets smiting, spells, heavy armor, and lots of damage by channeling deific vengeance. The 6 domains he gets pretty much become 6 feats.

This has been a lot of help guys. Thanks much.

[Pluto]

The latter, unfortunately. He really wants to just hit things with a sword and be charismatic and get charisma to saves. And I really want to make it so the chump I have to share XP with is pulling his weight.

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 1/Prestige Paladin 3/Ordained Champion 2/Whatever X?

edit: Or that^.

[lsfreak]

My friend wants to hit stuff with a sword, though, particularly the undead. -snip-

I would highly suggest fitting Travel Devotion in there as well. That either gets him into melee range for a full-attack, or in a position where he can then charge without messing up the actual chargers.

If he's going for a lot of smiting, Power Attack + Awesome Smite is good. Trip on a smite, giving a higher chance for him and the two chargers to smack someone around. Then again, as you said, this is going to be pretty feat-starved, and I'm not sure he'll be able to get enough smites/day to warrant Awesome Smite (though he should take PA, because... well, it's PA, especially with all those bonuses to hit he's getting).

[Soranar]

My friend wants to hit stuff with a sword, though, particularly the undead. I just paged through CC, after you pointed out how spectacular devotion feats are. Between Holy Warrior (reserve feat), law devotion, sun devotion, and knowledge devotion, he can get a really obscene bonus to damage by spending turning attempts. Couple that with ordainded champion smiting, and it's awesome!

I am going to try and convince him to go cloistered cleric of heironeous 4/ordained champion 3/hospitaler 1. Little feat deprived, and has a heavy dependency on swift actions, but gets smiting, spells, heavy armor, and lots of damage by channeling deific vengeance. The 6 domains he gets pretty much become 6 feats.

This has been a lot of help guys. Thanks much.

Hit stuff with a sword and be charismatic ... tall order

Best I can think of is this then

Race: Desert Half-Orc
Alignment: Lawful Good

Half-Orc paladin substitution levels (2nd) from races of Destiny

You get d12 hitpoints and your smite evil is traded for righteous wrath (you get as many a day as you would get smite evil)

+2 to damage for Cha bonus rounds (+1 more each 4 levels so +3 at 4, +4 at 8, +5 at 12, +6 at 16 and finally +7 at 20)

it's a morale bonus so it stacks with everything and it works against everything (no alignment requirement)

I still recommend the holy warrior route, you just don't cast that much until late in the game and you waste feats on spellcasting until then.

Does an axe fit his swing a sword thing?

STATS

STR 18
DEX dump
CON 18 (+2 race)
INT 14 (-2 from race) dumpable but annoying to roleplay
WIS dump
CHA 18 (main stat, keep boosting it)

1 weapon focus : armor spikes
2
3 axespike weapon style (bonus attack at -5 with spikes in a full round action, 1/2 str)
4 bonus feat: power attack
5
6 travel devotion
7 bonus feat: divine might
8
9 exotic weapon proficiency: braidblade (if you have enough tumble, you get a bonus attack at -2 with a blade attached to your hair)

This build makes a decent tank (lots of HP, nice saves). Your main weapon is a Greataxe (fits a half-orc IMO) and you get secondary attacks from the spikes and braidblade (to optimize your weird smite version which boosts every attack you make) which don't require Dex (like TWF) and don't prevent you from having a decent main attack for normal charges.

And you can always switch those 2 feats for improved bullrush + shock trooper if you prefer.

[faceroll]

I would highly suggest fitting Travel Devotion in there as well. That either gets him into melee range for a full-attack, or in a position where he can then charge without messing up the actual chargers.

Travel devotion would be cool, but he's following Heironeous. I'm not sure if you can do that. And not only will there be trouble squeezing that into the build, but between law devotion, destruction devotion, sun devotion and Ordained Champion smiting, he's going to us a lot of turn attempts and swift actions. Moving into position isn't such a big deal when you're using your standard actions to buff.

If he's going for a lot of smiting, Power Attack + Awesome Smite is good. Trip on a smite, giving a higher chance for him and the two chargers to smack someone around. Then again, as you said, this is going to be pretty feat-starved, and I'm not sure he'll be able to get enough smites/day to warrant Awesome Smite (though he should take PA, because... well, it's PA, especially with all those bonuses to hit he's getting).

Actually, with ordained champion, he can use a turn attempt to smite ANYTHING he feels like smiting- there's no creature or alignment restrictions. Awesome smite isn't going to make the short list, but he'll likely take it as his 9th level feat (unless he really wants cleave). Power attack he's taking as a pre-req to divine might (standard action and turn attempt to give you charisma mod to damage for charisma mod rounds, untyped damage), so the opportunity cost is reduced.

He gets this all on top of whatever spells he's got up, which is spectacular. I'm not sure if he'll be going THF or sword & board. Improved cover + tower shield with the 3.0 cover rules we're using will get him +7 cover AC, so he can use an animated shield on top of that, for 30 to 40 AC. He wants to play the tank role, which our party really needs, since melee has pretty abysmal AC. With Awesome Smite, he can lock stuff down pretty good, though if the psywar in the party decides to start using knockdown, I'm not sure if tripping as a medium creature with no other sources of bonus will be worth it. Circumventing DR & miss chances sure will, though, since I think I'm going to give him the murky-eyed flaw.

Hit stuff with a sword and be charismatic ... tall order

Best I can think of is this then

Race: Desert Half-Orc
Alignment: Lawful Good

Half-Orc paladin substitution levels (2nd) from races of Destiny

You get d12 hitpoints and your smite evil is traded for righteous wrath (you get as many a day as you would get smite evil)

+2 to damage for Cha bonus rounds (+1 more each 4 levels so +3 at 4, +4 at 8, +5 at 12, +6 at 16 and finally +7 at 20)

it's a morale bonus so it stacks with everything and it works against everything (no alignment requirement)

I still recommend the holy warrior route, you just don't cast that much until late in the game and you waste feats on spellcasting until then.

Does an axe fit his swing a sword thing?

STATS

STR 18
DEX dump
CON 18 (+2 race)
INT 14 (-2 from race) dumpable but annoying to roleplay
WIS dump
CHA 18 (main stat, keep boosting it)

1 weapon focus : armor spikes
2
3 axespike weapon style (bonus attack at -5 with spikes in a full round action, 1/2 str)
4 bonus feat: power attack
5
6 travel devotion
7 bonus feat: divine might
8
9 exotic weapon proficiency: braidblade (if you have enough tumble, you get a bonus attack at -2 with a blade attached to your hair)

This build makes a decent tank (lots of HP, nice saves). Your main weapon is a Greataxe (fits a half-orc IMO) and you get secondary attacks from the spikes and braidblade (to optimize your weird smite version which boosts every attack you make) which don't require Dex (like TWF) and don't prevent you from having a decent main attack for normal charges.

And you can always switch those 2 feats for improved bullrush + shock trooper if you prefer.

That's a really neat build. Is that weapon style from PHB2? If it is, I can't use it. This would fit my friend's play style really well. He could give up casting for bonus feats, too. Very straightforward with what it does, without a lot of nuance or having to spend a bunch of actions buffing. I like it. It's elegant. Kind of weird, but I like it.
OTOH, he's going to love hitting things while simultaneously blasting them with flamestrikes.

[Soranar]

Travel devotion would be cool, but he's following Heironeous. I'm not sure if you can do that. And not only will there be trouble squeezing that into the build, but between law devotion, destruction devotion, sun devotion and Ordained Champion smiting, he's going to us a lot of turn attempts and swift actions. Moving into position isn't such a big deal when you're using your standard actions to buff.



Actually, with ordained champion, he can use a turn attempt to smite ANYTHING he feels like smiting- there's no creature or alignment restrictions. Awesome smite isn't going to make the short list, but he'll likely take it as his 9th level feat (unless he really wants cleave). Power attack he's taking as a pre-req to divine might (standard action and turn attempt to give you charisma mod to damage for charisma mod rounds, untyped damage), so the opportunity cost is reduced.

He gets this all on top of whatever spells he's got up, which is spectacular. I'm not sure if he'll be going THF or sword & board. Improved cover + tower shield with the 3.0 cover rules we're using will get him +7 cover AC, so he can use an animated shield on top of that, for 30 to 40 AC. He wants to play the tank role, which our party really needs, since melee has pretty abysmal AC. With Awesome Smite, he can lock stuff down pretty good, though if the psywar in the party decides to start using knockdown, I'm not sure if tripping as a medium creature with no other sources of bonus will be worth it. Circumventing DR & miss chances sure will, though, since I think I'm going to give him the murky-eyed flaw.



That's a really neat build. Is that weapon style from PHB2? If it is, I can't use it. This would fit my friend's play style really well. He could give up casting for bonus feats, too. Very straightforward with what it does, without a lot of nuance or having to spend a bunch of actions buffing. I like it. It's elegant. Kind of weird, but I like it.
OTOH, he's going to love hitting things while simultaneously blasting them with flamestrikes.

Weapon style is from Races of stone, the half-orc thing is from races of destiny (braidblade I'm not sure where it's from), desert half-orc is from unearthed arcana and you can throw in Dragonborn of Bahamut template from Races of the dragon if you allow it

oh and travel devotion/holy warrior are from Complete Champion

[deuxhero]

Blast, we do not have that book.

Look one post above you.

[Keld Denar]

Sorcadin

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

Its is a solid build. 9th level sorcerous casting and more Cha synergy than you can shake a stick at. SacEx gives TU to utilize Divine Might or Law Devotion.

Alternatively Divine Crusader is decent.

Paladin5/Fighter2/DC1/OrdainedChamp5/FistofRaz7

Full 9th level casting from 2 domains, one of which is War. If you didn't mind losing some BAB, you could also hit 2 levels of Contemplative to pick up another domain. Good additional domains to get are Travel and probably Time. Just champion the ideal of time traveling warriors and you'll be good!