[3.5] Do the baddies ever resist spells?

[Corey]

I'm rolling a Level 20 character w/ a Level 18 cohort -- both casters -- and I'm wondering whether spell resistance at those levels is ever worth worrying about.

In particular, I'm wondering whether Heighten Spell -- for Save or Dies -- is worth using.

Thoughts?

[DragoonWraith]

Heighten Spell doesn't affect Spell Resistance. Spell Resistance does not augment Saves, it's a separate mechanic.

That said, yes. Core, Spell Penetration and even Greater Spell Penetration are worthwhile. Outside of Core, Assay Spell Resistance (Spell Compendium) or simply using SR:No spells should handle all of your problems. The latter can even work in Core, depending on the type of caster.

[nargbop]

Depends on your DM's choice of baddies. Read the Epic Level Handbook for the canon examples, many of which have SR. Enemy PCs will probably use the spell Spell Resistance, which will give them SR of perhaps 32 if they're similar level to you.

SR has to be beaten by a d20 + your caster level + relevant bonuses. If you are a 20th-level caster trying to beat SR 30, half of the time you'll fail. If you have the Spell Enhancer spell , or the feats Spell Penetration , Greater Spell Penetration , Cooperative Spell, or Fortify Spell , you can increase your chances of getting through.
If you can increase your caster level, do it. Various magic items can do this, as well as the Arcane Thesis feat if you have a signature spell.

[Runestar]

One could argue that in forcing you to invest resources in overcoming sr, it has indirectly done its job.

Granted, assay resistance is dirt cheap by that lv (you should be able to cast one at the start of every fight), and spell penetration+arcane mastery (take 10 on caster lv checks) pretty much lets you ignore sr of caster lv+11.

As for saves, heighten can still be worth it - in the hands of a sorc. There are some lower lv spells which continue to remain useful at higher lvs (or rather, would be useful were it not for their crappy DCs). Slow and glitterdust remain popular because it is nigh-impossible to be immune to them, and will saves tend to be poorer than fort saves. A slowed tarrasque for instance, is a pushover as it is now limited to just 1 attack/round (compared to its previous 6, which could 1-shot any PC within reach). You don't need to bother with flying over it or summoning allips.

Conversely, SoDs such as finger of death, while arguably more potent, tend to get blocked out by the myriad of resistance/immunities high lv monsters are typically seen running around with.

[Corey]

Ack! Sorry for mixing up save DCs vs. SR again!

Yeah, on a character I'm building with a narrow spell list (Sublime Chord for anything over Level 3), I'm definitely making room for Assay Spell Resistance.

But your immunities point is interesting. What sorts of immunities should I look out for? I do have Finger of Death hanging onto the list, but since I have Polymorph Other too, a second Fort save-or-die is a good candidate for replacement.

Other save-or-dies on the list, by the way, are Solipsism, and the cohort druid's Enveloping Cocoon and Baleful Polymorph.

Irresistable Dance should make Enveloping Cocoon very likely to hit ....

Mass Charm Monster is there too, combat save modifiers notwithstanding.

[lsfreak]

While not everything will have all immunities, you should be prepared to deal with immunity to:
- Anything mind-affecting
- Any [Death] effects
- Anything that bestows negative levels or ability damage
- All damage types (though sonic and force are very rare)
- Movement-impairing things (grappling, entangling, solid fog)
- A few I'm sure I've forgetten

Ideally, you'll be able to use Knowledge skills before you start throwing spells to figure out what something's likely to be immune to.

[Corey]

While not everything will have all immunities, you should be prepared to deal with immunity to:
- Anything mind-affecting
- Any [Death] effects
- Anything that bestows negative levels or ability damage
- All damage types (though sonic and force are very rare)
- Movement-impairing things (grappling, entangling, solid fog)
- A few I'm sure I've forgetten

Ideally, you'll be able to use Knowledge skills before you start throwing spells to figure out what something's likely to be immune to.

Good list. Thanks!

[Runestar]

Blanket immunities aren't really all that common at higher lvs actually (looking at the dragon, titan, pit fiend, solar and balor). However, I do not discount the DM letting them access such protection via other means (eq/spells/feats/templates) in response to the players favouring such spells.

For instance, one can obtain the diamond mind save boosters via martial study (letting them replace a save with a concentration check), thus giving them one last line of defense. Iron heart surge can remove a single debilitating effect (such as negative lvs). One of the abyssmal heritor feats lets you ignore a small number of negative lvs, there is an armour property which casts a contingent death ward on you when targeted by the appropriate spell.

Dragons and solars/planetars cast spells themselves, and the DM can always have an npc spellcaster tagging along to supply buffs such as spell immunity or mindblank.

In fact, only undead, plants and possibly vermin have an impressive list of immunities.

That is why I say to be prepared with spells that are very difficult to ward against.

[magic9mushroom]

Against SR, Spell Vulnerability is also useful. It reduces their SR by CL up to 15. Allows a save, but they get your CL as a penalty on the save, so most monsters haven't a hope of making it.

If you can't beat it with both Assay SR and Spell Vulnerability up (not very likely, but there is the Epic Pseudonatural template with its ungodly SR to worry about at that level) then try True Casting.