Eliminating Racial Hit Die...

[Tyger]

If racial Hit Die were eliminated from Monstrous races (trolls, minotaur, etc) would it really present that much of a balance issue?

Sure, you'd likely get better stuff from class levels, but not all that much really. OK, it would depend on the class, but most folks taking huge LA critters as PC races aren't playing full casters anyway, so really its likely a smaller issue.

Sure, a Troll Crusader is an interesting concept to say the least, but the LA +5 seems to me more than adequate for the benefits.

Thoughts?

[mostlyharmful]

The monsters with LA are weighted to allow them to function with RHDs included, at least so far as WotC knew how to value different advantages. To completely get rid of RHD as a balancing factor while keeping the LA that took them into account gets you some pretty screwy results, just look at the Stone Giant, RHD14, LA +4. Could you really see a fifth level character with Large Size, +11 Natural armour, Rock throwing/catching, +16 Str, +8 Con and +4 Dex? It would get even weirder when you start using outsiders or undead...

Removing RHD can work but it takes a LOT of thought and playtesting that you can't just wing by eye and that WotC couldn't do even if it was the sole focus of the damn book (Unearthed Cheese)

[KellKheraptis]

The monsters with LA are weighted to allow them to function with RHDs included, at least so far as WotC knew how to value different advantages. To completely get rid of RHD as a balancing factor while keeping the LA that took them into account gets you some pretty screwy results, just look at the Stone Giant, RHD14, LA +4. Could you really see a fifth level character with Large Size, +11 Natural armour, Rock throwing/catching, +16 Str, +8 Con and +4 Dex? It would get even weirder when you start using outsiders or undead...

Removing RHD can work but it takes a LOT of thought and playtesting that you can't just wing by eye and that WotC couldn't do even if it was the sole focus of the damn book (Unearthed Cheese)

Quite frankly, I weigh WotC's idea of balanced races roughly the same as I do the importance of summoned trapfinders (it's expendable at best, and downright hilarious otherwise). That said, to the OP : Level drain them away. No more RHD problem!

[grautry]

Perhaps.

As an example, you'd have to think what to do about the RHD = caster levels monsters like a Black Ethergaunt.

If you just removed the RHD and retained all the other benefits then a Black Ethergaunt would have 17 levels of Wizard casting and a +20 Intelligence modifier for 4 LA. Which is a recipe for capital D Disaster.

You'd probably have to deal with it on case-by-case basis. Some monsters might be okay without the RHD, some won't be.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, eliminating RHD is the first step towards playable monstrous races. The second one is making LA cost something else than actual levels. 'cause no race is good enough to warrant being multiple spell levels behind in casting.

Weaker point buy, loss of some feats (though you gotta give enough for there to be anything to lose first), some blanket penalties on check, slightly slower XP accumulation, something of the sort. As it stands, the system is just plain dysfunctional.

[KellKheraptis]

Perhaps.

As an example, you'd have to think what to do about the RHD = caster levels monsters like a Black Ethergaunt.

If you just removed the RHD and retained all the other benefits then a Black Ethergaunt would have 17 levels of Wizard casting and a +20 Intelligence modifier for 4 LA. Which is a recipe for capital D Disaster.

You'd probably have to deal with it on case-by-case basis. Some monsters might be okay without the RHD, some won't be.

Black Ethergaunts tend to be the exception to most LA/RHD rules, given that a single monster can match an entire party if you play them "Tippily" enough. Though that's more a function of the class ability it gains.

For the record, that little exercise above makes even the DW Kobold UM seem like a chump in terms of early access spellcasting.

[tyckspoon]

If you want something to work with quickly, eliminate the lower of the HD or LA. Works fairly well for most things where one is much higher than the higher- you get level 4 Ogres, level 6 Minotaurs, LA-less Hobgoblins, level 4 Centaurs. They do have really nice stats, but consider that paid for by taking a 'class' (their racial HD) that gives stat boosts instead of class features. Gets a little weird when the HD/LA values are near even at the higher numbers- I think an HD-only Troll is probably still a little too strong for level 6. And it completely gets shot with racial-spellcasting critters- level 9 Couatls with level 9 Sorc casting, ethergaunts with level-appropriate casting plus a massive stat bonus- but those were always weird. I'd be mostly concerned with making LA/RHD work for people who just want to play more 'normal' monsters, like the giant-types.

[Flickerdart]

You could just rule that monster HD casting doesn't advance. And then ban Ethergaunts.

[Frosty]

I just homebrew everything, official balance be damned. Evaluate the monsters on a case by case basis. If, after eliminating all RHD, the base creature is too strong forits LA, then increase the LA. Simple as that. Or maybe keep a smattering of its RHD.

[LibraryOgre]

Generally, I deal with RHD in one of two ways.

1) Ignore it. This is especially true when it's only one or two HD, like Gnolls or Lizardmen.

2) Change it to an NPC class. A bit trickier, but, generally, NPC classes are equal or superior to most RHD (with Dragon and Outsider being notable exceptions). It's not a full class HD, but it can be useful, both in providing something like parity, and in making more interesting NPCs (in addition, I find it works well to train animals).

[Runestar]

In theory, LA was (or at least, should have been) determined with RHD as a mitigating factor. For example, compare the ogre with the half-ogre. Both have the same LA+2, but the ogre has superior stats because he is also saddled with 4 giant HD (which are inferior to class lvs).

In practice, monster LAs are often so overly-inflated that you can safely remove the RHD for some of them and they should still end up pretty balanced. There will be a few which break the mold, mostly those with a lot of racial HD and relatively low LA, such as giants.

Pretty much hit and miss if you ask me.

[Tyger]

The two that have come up (so far) are the Minotaur and Troll.

Minotaur doesn't seem that bad, maybe a bit strong for just LA +2 (I would make it +3 actually) but Troll seems pretty high for LA 5 only. Hell, any PC Troll is going to get Acid and Fire resistance to keep that Regeneration flowing.

I thought about taking the Troll to 8, and leaving it at that.

For the record, its for a level 20 one shot game, so I am not redoing the entire LA system... I don't have that kind of masochistic streak in me. :)

[Runestar]

For the record, its for a level 20 one shot game, so I am not redoing the entire LA system... I don't have that kind of masochistic streak in me. :)

Then you are better off just working with your DM to decide on a new ECL which you all feel is fair, and sticking to it. I would say troll is fair at ECL9 (6 giant HD, LA+3), considering MM5 now has the bladerager troll, which is also ECL11 but statistically superior in every aspect (including perma-mindblank!).

[Kylarra]

I actually like RHD, and would rather eliminate the blank "levels" provided by LA.

As far as a oneshot goes, you're best off just trying to make a case to your DM for that one critter then.

[sonofzeal]

RHD are a balancing factor. Some races outside of core are very powerful for their LA, because they depend on RHD keeping the ECL up. Check out the Marrulurk (Sandstorm) for an example off the top of my head. A +22 total stat mod, free Sneak Attack, two bonus feats, and a bunch of extras... for LA +1? Yeah right!

For ECL+4 though, they're not too bad. Still good, but reasonable.

[Tyger]

See, here's the problem. I am the DM.

This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.

In fairness to the other players, we're looking into some free LAs for the rest of the group and then, of course, they are taking Leadership and twinking out their cohorts as well. The one that has me the most intruiged is a Half-Dragon Troll cohort... should be interesting to see what the player comes up with.

[sonofzeal]

See, here's the problem. I am the DM.

This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.

In fairness to the other players, we're looking into some free LAs for the rest of the group and then, of course, they are taking Leadership and twinking out their cohorts as well. The one that has me the most intruiged is a Half-Dragon Troll cohort... should be interesting to see what the player comes up with.

Ah, well, that's different. That's an intended part of the class, and Liches really aren't worth LA+4 anyway. Don't worry about it. It's a nice class feature, but everyone else should be doing awesome things by then anyway (except the Fighter, but that's more a problem with the design of the class).

[Kylarra]

Meh, in comparison to leadership cheese and an abundance of powerful caster PrCs, I'd say actually taking a base class to 20 for its capstone should be lauded, not nerfed by giving other people bonuses.

[Greenish]

This all arises because one of my players has chosen to play a Dread Necromancer. 20th level. So he, at no cost to himself, becomes a lich. BOOM! +4 LA.

That's not free LA, that's a class feature.

[redlock]

well, then what HD would they gain? That must be accounted for first.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I would rather have RHD then LA as a player...

[Tyger]

Ah, well, that's different. That's an intended part of the class, and Liches really aren't worth LA+4 anyway. Don't worry about it. It's a nice class feature, but everyone else should be doing awesome things by then anyway (except the Fighter, but that's more a problem with the design of the class).

Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.

For comparison, if I had told everyone a level 20 game, and someone had decided he wanted to play a lich wizard, he would have been stuck at level 16 casting, so no level 9 spells.

And yes, there are far more broken things out there. This is not game breaking by any measure. But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

Now, there is an argument that the 20th level of DN doesn't actually grant the template, but only the undead traits, and the use of a phylactery to insure "immortality" but that's a whole other issue.

It would be one thing if this was an ongoing campaign, where the players had yearned for level twenty and the DN had played a tier three class in a party of tier one and twos, to be able to have a pretty sweet capstone. But in a straight level twenty, one shot game, it seems unfair to the rest of the group.

[sonofzeal]

Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.

For comparison, if I had told everyone a level 20 game, and someone had decided he wanted to play a lich wizard, he would have been stuck at level 16 casting, so no level 9 spells.

And yes, there are far more broken things out there. This is not game breaking by any measure. But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

Now, there is an argument that the 20th level of DN doesn't actually grant the template, but only the undead traits, and the use of a phylactery to insure "immortality" but that's a whole other issue.

It would be one thing if this was an ongoing campaign, where the players had yearned for level twenty and the DN had played a tier three class in a party of tier one and twos, to be able to have a pretty sweet capstone. But in a straight level twenty, one shot game, it seems unfair to the rest of the group.

That's how it works though - he gains the features of a Lich, but not the LA.

Comparing Dread Necro 20 to a Lich Wizard 16 isn't fair - first because Lich really isn't worth the +4 LA for anybody, and second because Wizard is a substantially more powerful class in general than Dread Necro of the same level. The DN should be getting goodies, to justify being one. Taking away his goodies just because other people don't get the exact same ones is insulting to all the goodies everyone else gets (like all the awesome Sor/Wiz spells) that he doesn't.

[Greenish]

Whether or not lich is worth 4 LA isn't really the problem though. The problem is how to fairly deal with a class that gets a bunch of decent abilities at level 20, which pushes them into (technically) epic levels, while the rest of the party is limited to 20th level.

DN 20 is ECL 20. Becoming a lich is a class feature for DN, unlike slapping the template on a wizard.

In essence, you're punishing the player for having a single-classed tier 3 character.

[Mystic Muse]

DN 20 is ECL 20. Becoming a lich is a class feature for DN, unlike slapping the template on a wizard.

same for Salt Lich or whatever the capstone of walker in the waste is.

[Gensh]

But, I think its only fair that if one of the characters gets to be ECL 24, the rest should too.

It isn't that the DN gets a free template: that's what the class has been building up to over the last 20 levels. The negative energy touch, natural armor, etc. that are all part of the lich template are class features granted along the way. The only thing that lvl20 gives the DN is the d12 HD at the expense of Con (don't let the player gimp his Con since he didn't have to play with it earlier), the ability mods, and the phylactery (which also doesn't really matter because he could just roll a wizard when his DN died).

[Tyger]

It isn't that the DN gets a free template: that's what the class has been building up to over the last 20 levels. The negative energy touch, natural armor, etc. that are all part of the lich template are class features granted along the way. The only thing that lvl20 gives the DN is the d12 HD at the expense of Con (don't let the player gimp his Con since he didn't have to play with it earlier), the ability mods, and the phylactery (which also doesn't really matter because he could just roll a wizard when his DN died).

The permanent paralyzing touch, the +8 to a bunch of skills, the +5 to NA, the +7 DR, the immunities to cold, electric, polymorph, and mind effecting spells and effects... and of course the stuff you mentioned, the +6 to stats.

Not saying I think its worth LA 4... that's up for debate. But it is worth something, and in a game where they didn't have to earn their way there, there hasn't been any opportunity cost.

Customer Service (yes, I know, I don't like them either) did answer the question once (or so a net search showed) and said that level 20 DNs do not get the template, they just get the phylactery and use thereof. Granted, a lot of the lich templates abilities are just greater versions of the existing DNs class abilities, but there are more than a couple that are not there, and those that are replicated are generally boosted by the template.

[Greenish]

Not saying I think its worth LA 4... that's up for debate. But it is worth something, and in a game where they didn't have to earn their way there, there hasn't been any opportunity cost.

Why should there be opportunity costs for capstone abilities other than having to take all 20 levels?

[Tyger]

Fair enough. Find me another base class that gets an LA + 4 as a capstone ability. Or anything that really compares. No PrCs (they have their own inherent issues).

I don't have encylopedic knowledge of all the classes, so I am hopeful there are some out there. It would make it a lot more palatable for me.

My inclination at this point is to stick with the original ruling we were operating under, and still give everyone their free LA+4. Its fun, which is what its all about. At this point, it is more of an intellectual exercise rather than a real issue.

[ericgrau]

I could see counting HD and LA towards gish levels; i.e. any beyond the pre-req also boosts caster level. But only after you subtract any existing caster levels from monsters that already have casting.

Beyond that, balancing it is difficult because it depends both on how you use the monster and how much a level and related class abilities are worth (which increases the more books you allow). Oddly enough most players aren't so good with optimization without resorting to a lot of books, so they don't know how to fully utilize things like large size. That makes LA seem too high to them when really it's just the player. OTOH if you allow a lot of books a blanket reduction to LA could be reasonable. If you have new players or if splatbooks makes obtaining or defeating certain special abilities trivial, you could reduce the LA of the more complicated races.