Monk Junk (consolidated monk discussion)

[Mystic Muse]

okay. me and my DM were in a small argument. He claimed that Monks are one of the most overpowered classes in the PHB.

Okay, we all know that isn't true. However, I need a good argument for that other than its multiple ability dependancy.

can somebody help?

[Dr.Epic]

Firstly, I love monks but here are some of the aurguements I've heard against them:

Low BAB for a combat class.
Low HD for a combat class.
They do a lot of things well but don't excede in any one area.

[sofawall]

Class features don't work together well (Flurry+Fast Movement).
Abilities are basically useless (Tongue of Sun and Moon).
The core improver for natural attacks costs 3 times as much as a weapon.
Even with the core enhancer, no enchantment equivalents like Flaming or Holy.
3/4 BAB.
Poor HD.
Bracers of armour cost more than equal armour.
Don't exceed in one area.
MAD.
Not proficient with fists.
Weaker returns for STR and Power Attack.
Quivering Palm is once per week, needs a save and an attack roll (with damage the gets past any applicable DR). Contrast: Finger of Death is 3+ times per day, and only needs a save (which, due to aforementioned MAD, is likely to have a higher DC), and works on more creature types.
Perfect Self: DR10/magic, and outsider type. Outsider type can be gotten at least 3 ways with no LA, and DR10/magic at level 20 is being bypassed by almost every single monster ever printed of a CR 15 and up, and most of the ones below that too.

[Touchy]

okay. me and my DM were in a small argument. He claimed that Monks are one of the most overpowered classes in the PHB.

Okay, we all know that isn't true. However, I need a good argument for that other than its multiple ability dependancy.

can somebody help?

I'm in the same situation. I've told them they don't really do much, but I had trouble finding sources for my knowledge as well.

[Foryn Gilnith]

A short playtest should get some number proofs. But a few questions for you...

What are your DM's supporting points for his arguments?
Why do you care?
Why do you need help from the internet?

[Crafty Cultist]

monks are also quite MAD. they need decent scores in str, dex, con, and wis to be effective

[sofawall]

No *2 Power Attack and *1.5 str (without a feat, I believe).

[Kylarra]

If he doesn't like monks because they're "overpowered" and you don't like monks because you "know" they're "underpowered"... just don't play monks and ignore the issue.

[Mystic Muse]

Wait, aren't they technically not proficient with their fists?

[BRC]

It's supposed to be a frontline combatant, along the lines of a Fighter or Barbarian. Yet it does not have full BaB, it has D8 hit dice, it's difficult to get enchantments on it's weapons, and it's Armor Class is difficult to improve. It, however, has no other method of being effective, it can't cast spells like a cleric, it dosn't have a rogue's skills or sneak attacks, or any of the Ranger's stuff. In battle it's basically limited to punching things, which it dosn't do very well.

It's really a class built around Fluff (Hey, let's make a mystic martial artist type) without thinking about Crunch (But he can't hit as well as a Fighter, or take as much damage. And he dosn't wear armor...)

One way to help Monks is to let them buy magic gloves/brass knuckles that affect their Unarmed Strikes, and let them treat normal clothing as essentially Armor with a +0 AC bonus, so it can be enchanted like normal armor.

[sofawall]

Wait, aren't they technically not proficient with their fists?

Technically, you are correct.

[Mystic Muse]

A short playtest should get some number proofs. But a few questions for you...

What are your DM's supporting points for his arguments?
Why do you care?
Why do you need help from the internet?

1. Quivering Palm and perfect body.
2. I don't know.
3. because you guys know more than me about this.

[sofawall]

Quivering Palm is once per week, needs a save and an attack roll.

Finger of Death is 3-4 times per day, minimum, and only needs a save (which, due to aforementioned MAD, is likely to have a higher DC)

Perfect Self: DR10/magic, and outsider type. Outsider type can be gotten at least 3 ways with no LA, and DR10/magic at level 20 is being bypassed by almost every single monster ever printed of a CR 15 and up, and most of the ones below that too.

[Mystic Muse]

If he doesn't like monks because they're "overpowered" and you don't like monks because you "know" they're "underpowered"... just don't play monks and ignore the issue.

Somebody else is playing a Monk and he seems to think they're overpowered too. I just want some ammo in case the issue ever comes up again.

[Kylarra]

Somebody else is playing a Monk and he seems to think they're overpowered too. I just want some ammo in case the issue ever comes up again.

If he's happy with his "overpowered" monk, why take that away from him?

[sofawall]

I'm gonna make a list for you, Kyuubi, in the third post.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If Perfect Self and Quivering Palm are the reasons Monk is overpowered, then just have the monk-player offer to leave Monk before 15th level. It's not like the campaign is destined to get that far, anyway, and there are some nice alternatives (prestige classes and stuff).

[Haven]

If he doesn't like monks because they're "overpowered" and you don't like monks because you "know" they're "underpowered"... just don't play monks and ignore the issue.

I don't think it can really be considered an isolated issue. Thinking that monks are overpowered probably means he overvalues some things and undervalues others, a situation that's likely to create other problems down the line.

Ninja'd: Or that.

[Dr Bwaa]

There is a shirt someplace that is not armor but provides a +1 armor bonus to AC, so it can be enchanted. A decent way to get your fists to have decent effects is with Kensei (but then you're not taking any more monk classes...)

As far as what it is that makes them bad, everyone has already said it. MAD as a Paladin or worse, low BAB, low HD, unsynergistic class features (slow fall+flurry of blows+fast movement = ?!?! ), lots of mediocre abilities that are guaranteed to be performed better by anyone else in the party (mediocre skills (and it's not like you're going to have an int score), mediocre HP & attack & damage & AC, no abilities to buff/otherwise aid party members, Quivering Palm is the same as Finger of Death, but worse and at higher levels...). I think that's really what it comes down to--they can do a lot of stuff pretty badly, instead of doing any of it well.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Class features don't work together well (Flurry+Fast Movement).

Good, another Monk thread. Cause I've been meaning to ask about this (to anyone, really, not just you, sofa).

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round.

I see nothing implying it can't be used with Fast Movement. The way I read it, it applies to all attacks, since it doesn't specify it takes an action to activate or that it only works with full attacks.

[BRC]

1. Quivering Palm and perfect body.
2. I don't know.
3. because you guys know more than me about this.

The "Body" Chain of stuff is fairly useless. Diseases and Poisons are fairly uncommon as things go, and are easy to cure anyway. Perfect Body is nice, but by level 20 everything has magic weapons or DR/Magic, or deals enough damage that a measly DR 10 dosn't cause it to blink.
As for quivering palm, "Oh no, an SoD that can be used once a week at level 15."
Wizards get Phantasmal Killer at Level 7, at which point they WILL have at least 18 int, so they can use it twice per day, and it deals damage on a successful save. That's not counting the hundreds of other "Save or _____" abilities out there. Yes it takes 2 saves, but still.

[sofawall]

Good, another Monk thread. Cause I've been meaning to ask about this (to anyone, really, not just you, sofa).



I see nothing implying it can't be used with Fast Movement. The way I read it, it applies to all attacks, since it doesn't specify it takes an action to activate or that it only works with full attacks.

A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

Right there.

[sonofzeal]

I see nothing implying it can't be used with Fast Movement. The way I read it, it applies to all attacks, since it doesn't specify it takes an action to activate or that it only works with full attacks.

"A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows."

(edit - ninja'd)

[The Dark Fiddler]

Right there.

God I'm blind sometimes.

[krossbow]

basically, nothing the monk gets synergizes with one another, and crippling MAD.

[Felyndiira]

1. Quivering Palm and perfect body.

Quivering Palm: Here's a few spells for your DM's consideration
Destruction - Fortitude Save or Die off Cleric's spell list, can be casted at range multiple times a day rather than 1/week.
Finger of Death - Fortitude Save or Die off Wizard's spell list, can be casted at range multiple times a day rather than 1/week at.
Slay Living - Fortitude Save or Die off Cleric's spell list at level 5 (level 9 rather than 15), can be casted multiple times a day rather than 1/week.
Baleful Polymorph - Fortitude Save or You Might As Well Be Dead off Druid's spell list at level 5 (level 9 rather than 15), can be casted multiple times a day rather than 1/week.

That being said, quivering palm is nothing. A single save or die that depends on both an attack roll (to hit) and a fortitude roll (to kill) is painfully weak as a level 15 skill when compared to even a base psion.


Perfect Self: Go ahead and show your DM shapechange or greater visage of the deity. Then show him the plethora of prestige classes that have outsider type capstones, and make him realize that a +1 weapon is considered magic. His argument is now invalid.

Note: Psions are a Tier 2 class max, so it's a fair comparison.

[Kylarra]

I don't think it can really be considered an isolated issue. Thinking that monks are overpowered probably means he overvalues some things and undervalues others, a situation that's likely to create other problems down the line.

Maybe. IMO and IME, attempting to address every single "misconception" someone might have "according to the internet" is a waste of time that could be better spent gaming.

The truth is, the majority of games, again imo and ime, don't fall anywhere near the optimization levels expected in the internet vacuum of RAWness. Some games obviously do, but as evidenced by these threads and ones along similar lines, a fair number, if not the majority, don't have optimized wizards that dominate every encounter by sheer virtue of being awesome while the groundpounders are left to do little more than poke things.

By the numbers, yes, the monk does not match up with the majority of other classes. If the things that the DM and player are concerned about are shiny things that happen at level 15 and 20, then just have the monk player PrC out before then, you'll be doing him a favor anyway.

[Volkov]

Quivering Palm: Here's a few spells for your DM's consideration
Destruction - Fortitude Save or Die off Cleric's spell list, can be casted at range multiple times a day rather than 1/week.
Finger of Death - Fortitude Save or Die off Wizard's spell list, can be casted at range multiple times a day rather than 1/week at.
Slay Living - Fortitude Save or Die off Cleric's spell list at level 5 (level 9 rather than 15), can be casted multiple times a day rather than 1/week.
Baleful Polymorph - Fortitude Save or You Might As Well Be Dead off Druid's spell list at level 5 (level 9 rather than 15), can be casted multiple times a day rather than 1/week.

That being said, quivering palm is nothing. A single save or die that depends on both an attack roll (to hit) and a fortitude roll (to kill) is painfully weak as a level 15 skill when compared to even a base psion.


Perfect Self: Go ahead and show your DM shapechange or greater visage of the deity. Then show him the plethora of prestige classes that have outsider type capstones, and make him realize that a +1 weapon is considered magic. Also show him the banishment spell. His argument is now invalid.

Not to mention, even if you save against destruction, you will take a healthy amount of damage. Also, monks are considered native outsiders at level 20, banishment won't work on them. Also, Psions are a top tier class.

[Swok]

Chances are, they won't believe you even if you explain it's flaws well. I've noticed that with a guy in my group that thinks Green Star Adept is overpowered. No matter how much I tried to explain that it isn't, he still thinks it is.

[Lycanthromancer]

Chances are, they won't believe you even if you explain it's flaws well. I've noticed that with a guy in my group that thinks Green Star Adept is overpowered. No matter how much I tried to explain that it isn't, he still thinks it is.

Play a warforged. Take Adamantine Body if you want. You just got what it took him 10 PrC levels and a huge amount of money to get, AND you have an actual Con score.