[3.5] Ranged Generic Warrior

[mummy162]

I've always wanted to make a ranged fighter, but their flavor and style make them more melee-oriented. So I decided to use the warrior generic class described in Unearthed Arcana to make a ranged warrior. I'm thinking good reflex save, poor fort and will saves. For bonus feat selection, Evasion and Improved Evasion are a must, plus Uncanny Dodge, since I want to make a short ranged combatant to utilize Point Blank Shot. This brings me to my question:

What feats would most improve this build? I'm guessing if my DM allows it Weapon Focus and Specialization and their Greaters, but besides that I don't know what to pick. Sources I'll accept are the PHB, PHB2, UA, Complete Adventurer and Warrior, the DMG, and any links you can give me. PrCs are allowed.

In addition, I need help choosing a close range ranged weapon. Which works best for dealing out damage?

[faceroll]

I would go with good will or good fort. Wisdom is likely to be something of a dump stat for you, which means you're in for a world of hurt. Dumping will saves is always a bad idea. Good reflex is rather superlative with your primary stat, dex. Fort saves kill, which is less bad, imo, then getting dominated.

[Nero24200]

If you're hoping to make this generic class more ranged orientated than the others, have you considered different attack progressions? Similer to how the Iron Heroes archer has a Poor BAB, but has a Good BAB when using ranged weapons.

Edit: Sorry, when I read the save part I figured you were custom-making a class, I forgot that generic classes can pick their saving throw progressions.

[mummy162]

I would go with good will or good fort. Wisdom is likely to be something of a dump stat for you, which means you're in for a world of hurt. Dumping will saves is always a bad idea. Good reflex is rather superlative with your primary stat, dex. Fort saves kill, which is less bad, imo, then getting dominated.

Good idea, but I'm thinking of putting my stats in around this order, from highest to lowest:

- Dexterity (Obviously, helps Reflex, attack and damage, AC, and many nice skills.)
- Constitution (Hit points are nice for close ranged combatants of any kind, Fort is never bad to have.)
- Wisdom (Will is a nice thing to have, and a high Wisdom means I can put in a poor will progression. Plus, Spot and Listen.)
- Strength (Melee backup weapons are a must for when I run out of ammunition or get too close to shoot without provoking opportunity attacks.)
- Intelligence (for skills)
- Charisma (it's Charisma)

EDIT: I'd also want good Reflex to qualify for Evasion and Improved Evasion.

[faceroll]

You may be using different rules, but the only way I know of getting dex to ranged attacks is crossbow sniper from PHB2, and that's only 1/2 dex. Str is more common, with str-rated bows.

EDIT: I'd also want good Reflex to qualify for Evasion and Improved Evasion.

Is getting a ring of it too out there? I mean, getting fireballed and failing your save just means damage, but getting finger of deathed, glitterdust, slowed, or charmed is pretty much the end.

[mummy162]

You may be using different rules, but the only way I know of getting dex to ranged attacks is crossbow sniper from PHB2, and that's only 1/2 dex. Str is more common, with str-rated bows.

You sure about that? I have been applying dex modifier damage to ranged attack rolls for, I don't know, my whole life...

In that case I guess I should switch Strength and Constitution on my priority list and get a composite longbow.

[Darrin]

You may be using different rules, but the only way I know of getting dex to ranged attacks is crossbow sniper from PHB2, and that's only 1/2 dex. Str is more common, with str-rated bows.

Dead-Eye from Dragon Compendium (not the lame PHBII feat) can add Dex to damage within 30'.

Bloodstorm Blade + Thunderous Throw + Shadow Blade would also work.

[mummy162]

Dead-Eye from Dragon Compendium (not the lame PHBII feat) can add Dex to damage within 30'.

Bloodstorm Blade + Thunderous Throw + Shadow Blade would also work.

What are the prerequisites for Dead-Eye?

[Thurbane]

Would the CC non-casting Ranger variant be any good for this? He loses spell casting for some bonus feats. Much better than the CW non-casting variant, too.

It gets good BAB, good Fort and Ref saves, and 6 skill points/level. Gets Evasion, and a 2 level dip in Barbarian would get you Uncanny Dodge.

Just a thought.

[Draz74]

Check out the Archery handbook for a whole bunch of ideas of magic items, feats, etc.

Note especially that, if splatbook material is available, there are better ways than Weapon Specialization to boost your arrow damage.

[ericgrau]

I've always wanted to make a ranged fighter, but their flavor and style make them more melee-oriented. So I decided to use the warrior generic class described in Unearthed Arcana to make a ranged warrior. I'm thinking good reflex save, poor fort and will saves. For bonus feat selection, Evasion and Improved Evasion are a must, plus Uncanny Dodge, since I want to make a short ranged combatant to utilize Point Blank Shot. This brings me to my question:

What feats would most improve this build? I'm guessing if my DM allows it Weapon Focus and Specialization and their Greaters, but besides that I don't know what to pick. Sources I'll accept are the PHB, PHB2, UA, Complete Adventurer and Warrior, the DMG, and any links you can give me. PrCs are allowed.

In addition, I need help choosing a close range ranged weapon. Which works best for dealing out damage?

Fighters make fine archers. It's the barbarians and paladins that are more melee oriented.

Out of core feats rapid shot is your best option early on, and point blank shot is almost as good as weapon focus in a dungeon. Next comes either the weapon focus tree or precise shot, depending on how much your party is in melee. From there take your pick based on what you do. Splatbooks may add other feats or better feats.

For gear get a nice +1 bow with various damage enchantments and a variety of arrows of every metal type and bane enchantment type. Lesser bracers of archery and boots of speed are also very nice. Gloves of dexterity too of course.

For melee your best option is to step back 5 feet then fire your bow. Your backup melee weapon should be used rarely, and ideally you'll switch back to ranged asap. A spell storing weapon is a great way to unleash a sudden, one time burst of pain, drop the foe, and get right back into ranged fighting. I'd make it a one handed weapon so you can keep your bow held in your off hand. Some form of mobility to get out of melee could work too, like tumble or a smokestick. Worst case scenario you can use an arrow as an improvised dagger at a -4 to hit.

If you have a party caster you can beg him for greater magic weapon and flame arrow. Haste too until you get your boots of speed.

[Petrocorus]

Begins with 2 lvl of Scouts from the Complete Adventurer, skill-monkey + uncanny dodge + 1 bonus to Fort and Init + trapfinding +skirmish.
You'll lose 1 in BAB
Or take rogue instead of Scout, you replace Uncanny dodge with Evasion and Skirmish + Battle Fortitude with Sneak Attack.
You can go to 4th lvl and get a better Sneak Attack and the Uncanny dodge.
You can do both, you will have improved uncanny dodge and several optionnal damage feature that can stack (i think) but you will lose 3 in BAB compared to the ranger.

Then Ranger (the non-casting variant mentioned by Thurbane ).
Good Fort and Ref saves + bonus Combat-style feat.
Until the 6th or 9th or 11th.

And then Order of the bow initiate from the Complete Warrior.
Good BAB, Ref and Will saves, and ranged attack class feature, notably bonus damage with bow.

If you leave the Ranger class before 9th, you will not have Evasion, but you will have an enormous Ref save since your primary Ability is Dex and all these 3 classes gives good Ref.
You can dip one lvl in the generic warrior class to get it and balance a save.


Race: Wood elf for the Dex and Str bonus, but an Int and Con penalties and Ranger as Favored class
Wild Elf for Dex bonus and Int penalties, but not a good favored class.
Human for the bonus feat.

[HunterOfJello]

you should just make a Cleric Archer



also: playing a solo game as a ranged character is going to be difficult without a tank or someone holding your enemies back

[Eldariel]

Fighters make fine archers. It's the barbarians and paladins that are more melee oriented.

Actually, Barbarians are quite possibly even more appropriate for Archers than Fighters. Barbarian gets Fast Movement which is absolute gold for skirmishing early on (and even later if you pick Manyshot), Rage is one of the few ways to actually increase Arrow Damage (especially if you have access to SRD), Uncanny Dodge synergises well with high Dex to AC and...well, your DR will be completely useless. Most of it works quite fine though.

Oh, and 4 skills/level (though unfortunately from a list lacking the Archer-specific skills in Spot and Hide) definitely helps cross-classing the various Archery-skills (and Tumble, which you always should CC) and picking Listens and Survivals and such. Though ultimately, Fighter/Barbarian far outdoes straight either in terms of archery. And small Ranger-dip gets you the skills you really want for the task in class. If anything, I'd start with Ranger 2, proceed into Barbarian 1 (or 5) and then Fighter 4 (to pick up Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery), then freestyling the rest.

[Petrocorus]

and Ranged Weapon Mastery), then freestyling the rest.

In what book is the Ranged Weapon mastery.

[Eldariel]

In what book is the Ranged Weapon mastery.

PHBII. You can find all this in the guide linked, complete with page numbers (something I don't remember offhand). I would know, I'm writing it.

[Dusk Eclipse]

PHB II IIRC (wow so many acronyms XD)

[Greenish]

also: playing a solo game as a ranged character is going to be difficult without a tank or someone holding your enemies back

Handle animal and a couple of dogs is rather thematic. (Inspired, of course, by Ashiel's campaign diary.)

[Ruinix]

dead-eye feat from dragon compendium req.
17dex, point blanck shot, weapon focus (any ranged weapon), +14 BAB

in errata of dragon compendium say:

dead-eye: change the base attack bonus prequisite from +14 to +1.


so preq are:

17 dex, PBS, WF, +1 BAB.


race: i strong recomend catfolk from races of the wild. is a LA+1 with +4 dex +2 ch, 40ft land speed, and ranger as favored class.


for the build.

warrior for weapon specialization.
ranger for combat variant and animal companion as special mount and favored enemy.
scout for skirmishes.

add the travel domain to the recipe for have 10 ft move and full round with skirmishes :D

__

as for weapon. greater long bow. splitting / force (total +5 enhance)
splitting is from champion of the ruins. give 2 attacks per shot. nasty.
force i think is from MIC. give a bypass any DR and protection from arrows and such of defensive spells :D

edit for add:

take Wood land archer feat. from races of the wild.
it give 3 maneuvers, the most sweet of all 3 is:


"adjust range": when u miss with a ranged attack u have +4 in all others attack in the same round against the same target.

at low level is just sweet, on paper dosnt seams too much, but in game is awesome.

[Knaight]

You sure about that? I have been applying dex modifier damage to ranged attack rolls for, I don't know, my whole life...

It is dex to ranged attack, but ranged damage rolls are strength-only, with the composite longbow, thrown weapons, and the sling. Other than crossbow sniper.

[ericgrau]

Actually, Barbarians are quite possibly even more appropriate for Archers than Fighters. Barbarian gets Fast Movement which is absolute gold for skirmishing early on (and even later if you pick Manyshot), Rage is one of the few ways to actually increase Arrow Damage (especially if you have access to SRD), Uncanny Dodge synergises well with high Dex to AC and...well, your DR will be completely useless. Most of it works quite fine though.

Oh, and 4 skills/level (though unfortunately from a list lacking the Archer-specific skills in Spot and Hide) definitely helps cross-classing the various Archery-skills (and Tumble, which you always should CC) and picking Listens and Survivals and such. Though ultimately, Fighter/Barbarian far outdoes straight either in terms of archery. And small Ranger-dip gets you the skills you really want for the task in class. If anything, I'd start with Ranger 2, proceed into Barbarian 1 (or 5) and then Fighter 4 (to pick up Weapon Spec and Ranged Weapon Mastery), then freestyling the rest.

Rage gives you damage but not AB, which matters a lot more later on when you're already doing a lot of enchantment and other bonus damage. Early on or if you merely multiclass barbarian you run the risk of shooting yourself in the foot, since getting a composite bow that can accommodate your rage strength means you get a penalty to hit with that bow whenever you're not raging. A fighter gets more AB and the same or almost as much damage from [greater] weapon focus & specialization. A single level barbarian dip could work for a skirmisher, but then really you're just a skirmisher with a barbarian dip not really a barbarian.

A ranger or a ranger dip does make an excellent sniper, though otherwise the skills are just kinda nice and you get less feats (bow feats included). This is more of a way to diversify your talents than to be a great party archer. Or as you said you can mix and match classes however you want depending on your goals.

[Ruinix]

i see over and over and over again the "sniper" advice.

on paper look nice. in game is awfull and totally a waste. especially when u play in group.

so in the "2 paths of archery" between "volley" archer and "sniper" archer I say is far faaar to much better the volley, simple cause the sniper is to much situational and just 10% of the times the sniper build will be eficient.

[Kaiyanwang]

Ruinix, can I ask you were did you get the said errata?

[Eldariel]

Rage gives you damage but not AB, which matters a lot more later on when you're already doing a lot of enchantment and other bonus damage. Early on or if you merely multiclass barbarian you run the risk of shooting yourself in the foot, since getting a composite bow that can accommodate your rage strength means you get a penalty to hit with that bow whenever you're not raging. A fighter gets more AB and the same or almost as much damage from [greater] weapon focus & specialization. A single level barbarian dip could work for a skirmisher, but then really you're just a skirmisher with a barbarian dip not really a barbarian.

A ranger or a ranger dip does make an excellent sniper, though otherwise the skills are just kinda nice and you get less feats (bow feats included). This is more of a way to diversify your talents than to be a great party archer. Or as you said you can mix and match classes however you want depending on your goals.

I've found that generally, if you take the WF-tree, you'll end up with so high attack bonus that your primaries hit on anything but 1 and even your secondaries tend to against CR appropriates, even outside PBS range. That's why I prioritise damage increases; I've found with bows, To Hit mostly takes care of itself and you don't have Power Attack to sink that bonus into.

Though Whirling Frenzy is what you really want, extra attack! Of course, at a penalty, but that's precisely what you want as you have plenty of means to buff your To Hit while there's a huge shortage of damage buffs for a bow; extra attack is pretty amazing for that (and with Extra Rage, you can do it quite often).


But yeah, in Core I'd just go Ranger 2/Fighter 4/Barbarian 1 and then something. Fighter could go up to 12 picking something, Barbarian extras would get enough Rages to make it doable, one could enter Dragon Disciple for the Str-increases, etc. Meh.

[ericgrau]

i see over and over and over again the "sniper" advice.

on paper look nice. in game is awfull and totally a waste. especially when u play in group.

so in the "2 paths of archery" between "volley" archer and "sniper" archer I say is far faaar to much better the volley, simple cause the sniper is to much situational and just 10% of the times the sniper build will be eficient.

Bingo, which is why I recommended the fighter for a party archer. The only archery advantage the ranger brings relies on a party that cooperates a great deal on strategy... not likely.

@Eldariel: With archers especially, you get a lot of full attacks. The extra hits from the secondaries far outweigh any minor source of extra damage (builds piling on many d6's OTOH are an entirely different direction). It's only on single attacks at high levels that AB can get a little over the target's AC. The build you posted seems like it would work pretty well, though. Well, minus the dragon disciple. Again, just a couple points of str damage at high levels isn't worth mid BAB. The barbarian strength still works after extra rage b/c now it's a fairly low cost dip and you're never caught w/o your rage strength. Ideally at high levels you'd get a party caster to tag you with greater magic weapon to pile on the hits from secondary attacks. If that can't be done, you go arcane archer for max damage output (whose main downfall is being mostly replaced by GMW).

[Eldariel]

Bingo, which is why I recommended the fighter for a party archer. The only archery advantage the ranger brings relies on a party that cooperates a great deal on strategy... not likely.

You play this game so differently than I do.

@Eldariel: With archers especially, you get a lot of full attacks. The extra hits from the secondaries far outweigh any minor source of extra damage (builds piling on many d6's OTOH are an entirely different direction). It's only on single attacks at high levels that AB can get a little over the target's AC. The build you posted seems like it would work pretty well, though. Well, minus the dragon disciple. Again, just a couple points of str damage at high levels isn't worth mid BAB. The barbarian strength still works after extra rage b/c now it's a fairly low cost dip and you're never caught w/o your rage strength. Ideally at high levels you'd get a party caster to tag you with greater magic weapon to pile on the hits from secondary attacks. If that can't be done, you go arcane archer for max damage output (whose main downfall is being mostly replaced by GMW).

It really depends on your To Hit-bonuses in the end. 4 levels of DD add 2 to damage; much depends on how many sources of To Hit-bonuses you have. In Core, damage bonuses are extremely hard to come by. Though once the 4th iterative, you're right, you want maximum To Hit too as that actually isn't autohit.

[ericgrau]

So that's 1 AB for 2 damage. The break even point on that is between 20 and 40 damage per hit. i.e., if you hit on 10 out of 20 attacks (including secondary attacks), then another 1 out of 20 increases your damage output by 10%. 10% of 20 is 2. If your chances of hitting on your secondaries is almost, but not quite, certian, then another 1 out of 20 increases your damage output by slightly over 5%. 5% of 40 is 2. At very high levels you can easily get around 50 damage and the chances of hitting on your 3rd and 4th attacks aren't so hot. Around level 12 you might only be doing 20-30 damage per arrow: 4.5 base + [~4-5 strength] + [magic bow ~2d6+1 to 3d6+1=8 to 11.5] + [4 greater weapon spec] ~= 21-25. Maybe add a little more strength or rage, greater magic weapon, flame arrow, etc. for up to 30. Already it's not worth it when you enter dragon disciple at level 13; and by the time you finish DD at level 16 you'll be doing a lot more damage. Or if you entered DD at level 6 then you're missing out on greater weapon specialization so you're behind a point of AB and your damage is not increased. Well, except briefly on levels 10 and 11 (but, still, you already paid the -1 BAB up front at DD 1).