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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Temotei's Avatar

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    Default Natural 20s With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Skill Checks

    A natural 20 on a skill check gives you a prowess point, usable on any skill check in the future to gain a +5 bonus to it. Prowess points may be used several times for a single check, the bonuses stacking each time. Characters may store an infinite amount of prowess points. Taking 20 does not grant a prowess point.

    Attack Rolls

    A natural 20 on an attack roll gives you a battle point, usable to gain a +3 bonus to an attack roll. In addition, when using a battle point, your critical threat range increases by one. Battle points may be used several times for a single attack, the bonuses stacking each time. Characters may store an amount of battle points based on their base attack bonus, as shown below.

    Base Attack Bonus Battle Point Maximum
    +1 - +4 2
    +5 - +8 4
    +9 - +12 6
    +13 - +16 8
    +17 - +20 10

    Critical Confirmation Rolls

    A natural 20 on a critical confirmation roll gives you a critical point, usable before any critical confirmation roll to automatically confirm a critical hit. As well, the critical hit in question gains a bonus to damage based on your base attack bonus, as shown below. Characters may store an infinite amount of critical points, but their use is restricted to one point per critical.

    Base Attack Bonus Critical Damage Increase
    +1 - +3 +5
    +4 - +6 +10
    +7 - +9 +20
    +10 - +12 +25
    +13 - +15 +30
    +16 - +18 +40
    >+18 +50

    Caster Level Checks

    A natural 20 on a caster level check gives you a magic point, usable on a spell to regain it for the day in the same spell slot it took up before, metamagic included. The amount of magic points required to regain a spell slot is given below. A character may store an amount of magic points based on their caster level--the table is given below.

    Spell Slot Magic Points
    1-2 1
    3-5 2
    6-7 3
    8-9 4

    Caster Level Magic Point Maximum
    1-4 2
    5-8 4
    9-12 6
    13-16 8
    17-20 10

    Initiative Checks

    A natural 20 on an initiative check gives you an action point, usable to gain an extra standard action. A character may store an infinite amount of action points.

    Turning Checks

    A natural 20 on a turning check gives you a divine point, usable to gain two extra cleric levels for the purpose of turning. This bonus disappears after one turn attempt. Multiple divine point uses on a single turning check stack. A character may store an amount of divine points based on their caster level, shown below.

    Caster Level Divine Point Maximum
    1-4 3
    5-8 5
    9-12 7
    13-16 9
    17-20 11

    Saving Throws

    A natural 20 on a saving throw gives you a protection point, usable to gain a +8 bonus on a single save or to give a +8 bonus on a single save to an ally within 30 feet. You may also use a protection point to gain a +4 bonus to armor class for one round per level, or spell resistance equal to 11 + hit dice for one round per level. A character may use multiple protection points on a single save or to increase armor class, the bonuses stacking. A character may store an infinite amount of protection points.

    Ability Checks

    A natural 20 on an ability check gives you an ability point, usable to gain a +8 bonus to an ability score for one round per level. A character may use multiple ability points to gain stacking bonuses to that ability score. A character may store an amount of ability points based on their base attack bonus, given below.

    Base Attack Bonus Ability Point Maximum
    +1 - +4 1
    +5 - +8 2
    +9 - +12 3
    +13 - +16 4
    +17 - +20 5

    Stabilization Checks

    A natural 100 on a stabilization check gives you two death points, usable whenever you would normally be reduced to -10 hit points from a single attack when you have more than -1 hit points. You are instead reduced to -9 hit points, automatically stabilized. As well, you gain fast healing 1 for each death point spent until your hit points reach 0 or higher. Death points may be used to gain higher fast healing (increasing by 1 per death point spent) during the time a character is down. A character may store an infinite amount of death points.


    All types of points may be used as free actions usable whenever their conditions are met. Essentially, it's a mindless act of focus, thought, prayer, or something else that gives this extra power with specific actions.

    Note: Don't allow a player to roll for drinking from a river (unless it's poisonous) or anything like that. Walking does not require a Balance check. Not telling players about this house rule will hopefully preemptively stop metagaming madness.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2014-04-09 at 09:06 PM.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Well, having merely looked at the start, the skill-checks part, and the end, I see no mention of the GM needing to keep the players from rolling for everything and everything, and going into a lot of pointless actions so as to build up as many points to use as possible on IMPORTANT rolls. I hear something like this was a problem with some (previous?) versions of "Call of Cthulthu" except there the problem was that you got experience by FAILING rolls, so the PCs would do all sorts of insanely difficult things that had zero consequences for failure.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Well, having merely looked at the start, the skill-checks part, and the end, I see no mention of the GM needing to keep the players from rolling for everything and everything, and going into a lot of pointless actions so as to build up as many points to use as possible on IMPORTANT rolls. I hear something like this was a problem with some (previous?) versions of "Call of Cthulthu" except there the problem was that you got experience by FAILING rolls, so the PCs would do all sorts of insanely difficult things that had zero consequences for failure.
    I'll put that in there. Done.

    The note should be a nice disclaimer for DM's and GM's.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-04 at 12:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Sounds a bit weird to me, honestly - rolling a natural 20 is already its own reward, especially for attack rolls.
    Giving players the potential for additional bonuses in the future IN ADDITION to the benefits of the natural 20 sounds a bit unbalanced, and possibly unfair.

    If I had to make natural 20s feel more special, I'd give some relevant on-the-spot benefit on top of the automatic success(except for attack rolls, which already have their own benefit.) - with the limitation that this does not apply if rolling a 20 was the ONLY way you could succeed.

    Some examples of effects I'd suggest for rolling a natural 20 on...
    ...saving throw for half damage:take no damage at all(basically, Mettle/Evasion)

    ...initiative: you gain a bonus move action(standard would probably be too powerful) on your first turn.

    ...caster level check: if you were casting a spell with limited uses per day, it is not expended. Alternatively, if you're doing this check to overcome SR, your opponent SR is lowered by 1 for the next 24 hours.
    and so on.


    It's your house rule though, so feel free to ignore my criticism/ideas, and sorry if it looked like I was hijacking your thread.

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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Edivad View Post
    Sounds a bit weird to me, honestly - rolling a natural 20 is already its own reward, especially for attack rolls.
    Giving players the potential for additional bonuses in the future IN ADDITION to the benefits of the natural 20 sounds a bit unbalanced, and possibly unfair.
    Unfair as in it favors rolling, therefore increasing the chance of death for PC's? I suppose so. It's unlikely to happen enough to matter too much though.

    Not everyone should use this if they plan on using CR as written. I'm a DM (now) who doesn't like CR as written--I take a glance at it, then gauge by the monster's abilities how strong it is against my party. That's who this house rule is for--the person who doesn't use CR as written.

    If I had to make natural 20s feel more special, I'd give some relevant on-the-spot benefit on top of the automatic success(except for attack rolls, which already have their own benefit.) - with the limitation that this does not apply if rolling a 20 was the ONLY way you could succeed.
    Agreed. I don't think I'll ever put my players in that situation though--unless it's some extremely important NPC (BBEG, etc.).

    I've used a rule like that in the past. It was somewhat simpler then, but this encompasses all the roll types, so it's to be expected.

    ...saving throw for half damage:take no damage at all(basically, Mettle/Evasion)

    ...initiative: you gain a bonus move action(standard would probably be too powerful) on your first turn.

    ...caster level check: if you were casting a spell with limited uses per day, it is not expended. Alternatively, if you're doing this check to overcome SR, your opponent SR is lowered by 1 for the next 24 hours.
    and so on.
    I've used the initiative house rule before (no, really, it was pretty much exactly like you said it), but I think the others are low on fun. That's why I came up with this rule--not to give small bonuses to great rolls. Sure, not expending a spell slot is cool and all, but isn't activating an ability to recover that spell slot slightly cooler? I think it is. Active abilities, as a whole, are more fun than passive abilities that come into effect once every twenty or so rolls. Likewise, getting a 20 on a saving throw and avoiding all damage is pretty cool, but I think it would be cooler to be able to spend a point to get a bunch of bonuses, including ones you can spend on an ally. Not much of a difference, in this case, but it might make all the difference.

    It's your house rule though, so feel free to ignore my criticism/ideas, and sorry if it looked like I was hijacking your thread.
    Nonsense. I appreciate you looking at it, and this thread hasn't really gotten much traffic. That you posted (and a respectful amount) is enough for me to thank you. I'm going to look at the rules for this again and assess the power of each ability separately, then as a whole. If anything stands out, I'll change it.

    Obviously, this house rule increases random power a little bit, therefore increasing the chance of death for PC's, but also increasing the chance of a quick death for the BBEG or other important NPC's. Nobody has to use this--it's just here for fun, as are all homebrew creations. Still, the look on the face of that new player destroying a dangerous creature they would otherwise have quite a bit of trouble with--priceless.

    As well, I'm going to be applying the house rule to a game, so playtesting should be on its way.

    Forgot to mention attack rolls. The reason they're in there is for completeness and because I figured giving another benefit would only increase power slightly (more in monsters, actually). Notice that +3 to attack rolls and a +1 critical threat range isn't that great--especially since you have a cap on the battle points you can hold.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-08 at 06:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Honestly, even just the auto-success portion of the natural 20 irks me to no end (and the auto-failure on a natural 1). Making natural 20s/1s even more special runs contrary to my every experience and intuition. I would rather get rid of what distinction they already have, not add more.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ponce View Post
    Honestly, even just the auto-success portion of the natural 20 irks me to no end (and the auto-failure on a natural 1). Making natural 20s/1s even more special runs contrary to my every experience and intuition. I would rather get rid of what distinction they already have, not add more.
    Don't use this then.

    That you didn't present any critique on the actual subject matter, I am mildly put off by. This is a house rule, just like your house rule to avoid any bonuses or penalties at all for luck. Also, apparently you didn't read the post, because not once did I mention natural 1's. Perhaps reading the actual homebrew before saying you don't like it would help in critiquing honestly.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-08 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    Don't use this then.

    That you didn't present any critique on the actual subject matter, I am mildly put off by. This is a house rule, just like your house rule to avoid any bonuses or penalties at all for luck. Also, apparently you didn't read the post, because not once did I mention natural 1's. Perhaps reading the actual homebrew before saying you don't like it would help in critiquing honestly.
    I did read the homebrew. My issue lies with giving natural 20s an unbalanced level of importance as it tends to skew play quite a lot. The game becomes less about what your character is good at, and more about whether or not they rolled a natural 20. This undermines the system.

    I realize you did not mention natural 1s, which is why I had it as an aside. The principle is the same.

    My issue is with the goal of what you are trying to accomplish, not with the mechanics. Homebrew like this is meant to make the game more enjoyable. Assume for a moment that you accomplish what you set out to do in a good, mechanical manner. Why is the end result desirable?
    "...short, wrinkled, and superfluous." Yes... yes.

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    Default Re: Natural 20's With Additional Bonuses [3.5] [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ponce View Post
    I did read the homebrew. My issue lies with giving natural 20s an unbalanced level of importance as it tends to skew play quite a lot. The game becomes less about what your character is good at, and more about whether or not they rolled a natural 20. This undermines the system.

    I realize you did not mention natural 1s, which is why I had it as an aside. The principle is the same.

    My issue is with the goal of what you are trying to accomplish, not with the mechanics. Homebrew like this is meant to make the game more enjoyable. Assume for a moment that you accomplish what you set out to do in a good, mechanical manner. Why is the end result desirable?
    Considering a natural 20 comes about every twenty rolls, you'll hardly be using the bonuses, which, while noticeable, are hardly game-breaking or unbalancing for characters all over, unless they build up points throughout a campaign or something ridiculous like that.

    As for that last part--you answered it yourself. If the players like it, use it. If they don't, don't. Plain and simple. That's what homebrew is about--having some new options for games which some DM's may not want to use. That's fine--that's why we continue to pump out fighter and monk fixes here. That's why there are so many new feats coming. New spells constantly pour in. I doubt a game will include all of this homebrew. It's there for the enjoyment of people who want to use the mechanics. For those who don't, there's the normal rules or other homebrew rules.

    Glad to hear you read through it though. I interpreted your post as a "skim" post. Sorry about the confusion.

    I would hardly say this undermines the system though. Adding mechanics that come into play once per session, if that, isn't exactly undermining the system--at least, not in my definition of it. I realize it slightly skews rolling. I've said it, and I'll say it again. Randomness increases the chance of death or injury for PC's, who often rely more on skill than luck (with the exception of level 1 - 2 characters...sometimes).

    I understand where you're coming from, and after I've tested it once or twice, I probably won't even use it again. The thing is, others might, and that's what makes a good homebrew--use and enjoyment. This might not mesh with a lot of DM's or even players, but, at the same time, it might be perfect for some groups. Even if it just slightly increases the fun in their game, that's enough for me.
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