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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    RedWizardGuy

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    tongue The Warblade Quarrel

    So, I know this has been asked before, but I would like some clarification.

    What are the arguments from the Warblade? Pros and Cons

    Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.

    I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me). Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1. He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

    Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..

    But I do acknowledge that melee does want to have nice things too Which, unfortunately some poeple fail to see, including myself.

    But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.
    Last edited by ChakraChanter; 2010-03-04 at 04:57 AM.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    It's not the Warblade that is overpowered, it is the fighter which is seriously underpowered, as are most non-magical classes in standard D&D 3.5. The Tome of Battle is actually a patch for this problem, the point were even WOTC acknowledged that fighter and co are pretty much unsalvageable when compared to wizards, clerics or druids.
    And if you compare the Warblade with these, it's still lacking behind.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me).
    If you're in that stance you're giving up the opportunity for other stances. It's a strong ability, but it's situational and it's not like you don't lose anything by getting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1.
    Maneuvers that only apply to a particular save, so if you want to be use them against all saves you have to use up half of your readied maneuver slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.
    Comparing a warblade to a fighter isn't really fair, it's universally acknowledged that fighter is a terrible terrible class. I don't get what you mean by 'even into thin air' though, so I can't comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..
    Except by having some AC. Any creature can avoid them completely- Just because they target AC doesn't make them unavoidable.
    Last edited by Goonthegoof; 2010-03-04 at 05:04 AM.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    So, I know this has been asked before, but I would like some clarification.

    What are the arguments from the Warblade? Pros and Cons

    Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.

    I dislike the fact that there's a stance, that when an enemy take a 5-foot adjustment, he still suffers an AOO (it really bugs me). Second, he has these manuevers that allow him to replace any save with a concentration check that doesn't fail on a natural 1. He has 12HD when the poor fighter has 10HD and more skill points... Fourth, he can replenish all these manuevers with a 'flurry of his blades, even into thin air.

    Then there's nitemare ruby blade, and time stands still, etc. Then, these aren't 'spells' so no creature can avoid them, not even partially..

    But I do acknowledge that melee does want to have nice things too Which, unfortunately some poeple fail to see, including myself.

    But I implore you, I exhort you fellow playgrounders, please give your opinions so that I may not be so ignorant or biased.
    Creatures can avoid warblade maneuvers just as they can avoid a charging leap-attacking raging power-attacking ubercharger's attack. They use armor class. Many of the maneuvers that have effects other than damage do allow saves or require a roll on the warblade's part against some attribute of the opponent.

    Duskblades are quite powerful as well and are easily on par with warblades in most cases.

    If you allow wizards and druids and the majority of the PHB spells, there is little reason to disallow warblades.

    Your player who likes to play powerful characters is likely playing at a higher level of optimization than the others. If this is true, he could likely 'outshine' the others with most playable classes.

    Someone else might be able to supply some numbers to compare warblades to other given classes at various levels and demonstrate, but the bottom line will be whether you are willing to be convinced or not. Most people who dismiss ToB out-of-hand are not willing to be convinced. If you don't want them in your game, don't allow them.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Goonthegoof View Post
    Comparing a warblade to a fighter isn't really fair, it's universally acknowledged that fighter is a terrible terrible class.
    You clearly left out the part where I acknowledge "..the poor fighter", providing my sympathy.

    Edit: Okay, well while I acknowledge how the Tier system works, I would like to be more specific. In speaking how purely combat efficient the class is
    Last edited by ChakraChanter; 2010-03-04 at 05:15 AM.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Goonthegoof View Post
    I don't get what you mean by 'even into thin air' though, so I can't comment.
    To reset his readied maneuvers a warblade makes an attack, with the option to attack the air in front of him.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Goonthegoof View Post
    Maneuvers that only apply to a particular save, so if you want to be use them against all saves you have to use up half of your readied maneuver slots.
    Yeah, well in the case of living or dying (especially at higher levels) I don't see much of a loss, [and the Warblade can the rearrange his manuevers prepared with a full round action], or is that a different class. Then you could have your damage spells, along with your stances. Then replenish yourself when you're out..
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    You will find that the overwhelming consensus here is that the Warblade (along with the rest of the ToB) classes is not overpowered. Rather, that it is the best thing to happen for melee since pointy sticks were invented.

    I happen to agree with that consensus.


    The thing about the Warblade is that it is powerful out of the box. So if your group generally doesn't place an emphasis on making strong characters (e.g. they play unmodified Monks and Fighters with Weapon Specialization), it is probably going to outshine them handily.
    On the other hand, if the group is playing optimized Wizards, Clerics and Druids... the Warblade is going to get left in the dust, and there's not much it can do about it.

    To phrase it differently... the Warblade has a relatively narrow power range. If this power range is above the one your group plays at, it's going to look/be overpowered.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Me personally, I hate it. I think it's rediculously over-powered. I DMed a campaign where I have a player who likes to use powerful classes and behold the Warblade he presented me with. We had a Favored Soul, Necromancer, a Duskblade, and a Beguiler, but I have to say he by far outshined them.
    Out of curiosity, what level was this game?
    Tome of Battle classes are some of the most powerful until around levels 5-7, when spellcasters start to break the rules that normally apply. Then they fall into stride.



    Tome of Battle is one way of solving the problem that melee has in 3.5.
    The problem is that damage is all a melee character can do and that damage doesn't matter.
    If your Fighter does fifty damage to an enemy Cleric, it doesn't make the slightest difference. He will still be able to Plane Shift you to the Positive Energy plane when his turn comes around.
    That means 3.5 melee turns into a frantic all-or-nothing, where your character is either a caster or a two-handed charger, because nothing else has a prayer.
    (If you don't have spells or the ability to kill the baddies in one round, they will still be there and they will still be able to Blasphemy/Baleful Polymorph/Dominate/Implode you into oblivion.)

    Power Attacking for dear life is no longer required, nor are one-trick ponies.
    Tome of Battle lets other fighting styles work.
    You want to two-weapon fight? Take Tiger Claw.
    You want to specialize in trips and throws? Take Setting Sun.
    You want to go Sword and Board? Go Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind.
    ToB introduces status effects and alternate damage-dealing methods to the man-at-arms archetype.

    Don't compare the Warblade to a Fighter. Doing so means you're missing the point. The Warblade is designed to be more powerful and more Versatile than the Fighter. The Fighter is not powerful or versatile enough to play in the same game as the Druid or the Cleric. The Warblade is. (Well, it's closer anyway.)

    The Warblade is more likely than the Fighter to make saves and to resist various spells and effects, because all characters are able to resist those spells and effects in the game the Warblade is designed to play: casters have spell resistance and Resurgence and counterspell and Heal. Just because the Fighter is comparatively defenseless doesn't mean he should be.



    ...And monsters and other characters are perfectly able to avoid the Warblade's attacks. They're able to avoid them in the same ways they're able to resist any other melee character's attacks: boost AC, manipulate the battlefield, hurt the Warblade first, etc.




    The main draw to ToB is that it gives non-magical fighters the option to do something in combat beside roll attacks mindlessly again and again. This takes the pressure off DMs to provide fighters with magic gear and exploitable environmental features fight after fight after fight.

    The main fault with ToB is actually one of its strengths: ToB characters optiize themselves. This is fantastic in games where spellcasters go wild with summons and non-damage attacks, but it is detrimental to games where casters chuck fireballs and fighters two-weapon fight with bastard swords.
    Last edited by Pluto; 2010-03-04 at 05:34 AM.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    I have a long post about this, but one quick question. What level is the warblade? He isn't supposed to have access to that Stance you mentioned until level 10 unless he used a feat to get it.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Warblade is only a tier 3 class. Same as most of the party. They should be pretty even, power wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaronK
    Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

    Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior
    Remember to keep track of actions. Most strikes are Swift actions, and most counters are immediate actions, meaning that you cant counter a spell and then use a maneuvers on your next turn.

    If you need to challenge the warblade, use intelligent enemies. Stack up on AC and miss chance. Attack from several directions, he cant be everywhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    If you consider the RP aspect, you might want to consider alternatives to Tortle Str Ranger.
    I mean, why would the rest of the party trust this Tortal StRanger...

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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Fighters are horrible compared to Warblades. This is a pretty commonly held belief among D&D players I've talked to, but the way I usually run it to help balance it a bit is to consider fighters to be an adept class. That is, fighter levels don't count as half initiator levels. In addition, there is no limit to the number of times a fighter can take Martial Study. That allows the fighter to pretend he's an adept OR build something else entirely with all those juicy bonus feats.

    The thing that bothers me more than anything else in ToB is the warblade's ability to swap out all his single weapon focused feats (Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Supremacy) for anything else. That means he takes Exotic Weapon Proficiency (beanbag) and the next morning, he's a master of the wierdest, most obscure weapon you can find in some oft-discarded splatbook. It's not that it's overpowered per se; on any given day his bonus is just a bit higher. It's that he makes the fighter look like a total chump by doing as well as the fighter does with his weapon of choice that he's studied his whole life, but the warblade doesn't even have to have ever heard of the damn thing before, he's just as good at using it.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Incorrect View Post
    Warblade is only a tier 3 class. Same as most of the party. They should be pretty even, power wise.


    Remember to keep track of actions. Most strikes are Swift actions, and most counters are immediate actions, meaning that you cant counter a spell and then use a maneuvers on your next turn.

    If you need to challenge the warblade, use intelligent enemies. Stack up on AC and miss chance. Attack from several directions, he cant be everywhere.
    Most strikes are standard actions. Most boosts are swift actions. Changing stances is a swift action. Recovering maneuvers after a normal attack or a standard action to flourish is a swift action.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    The warblade exists to make melee fun again, by giving you more options in combat. No longer are you limited to just move+attack or 5-ft+full attack.

    Granted, there are some discrepancies (such as iron heart surge and white raven tactics), but I don't think you should condemn ToB just because of a few poorly designed material.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    *k, here we go*



    The Tome of Battle Classes were each created to take hybrid builds that people had played previously and add spell like abilities to them with the intention of creating melee classes that could prove useful to a party from level 1 all the way to 20 and keep up with the spellcasting classes.

    That's the real key part of each of the Marital Adepts. Melee characters in 3.5e are pathetically weak and can border on being useless to a high level party that includes even one wizard, cleric, or druid. Why even have a Barbarian around when your Druid can turn into a Dire Bear 10 times a day, your wizard can summon 2 Balor Demons to do his bidding and the Cleric can call for divine help directly from his deity whenever he feels squeemish?

    Marital Adepts are an apology to all of the players who have stuck it out with melee characters and really deserved a break at the end of a long long run of being ignored.



    ~~

    Now some warblade info:

    The Warblade is a based on the Fighter/Barbarian hybrid that many people have played in 3.5e. That is, a melee fighter with a large number of HD, light or medium armor, and very high damage output. The character can stay in the middle of combat because it has decent armor (not full plate and a tower shield, but still light/medium armor and a large shiled) and lots of hit points.

    That is the essence of the Warblade and the essence of the Fighter/Barbarian character concept.


    ~~~

    Now, at early levels (1-4) it's obvious that the Warblade is going to outpace many of the other character's in your party simply because the Marital Adepts are amazing at those levels. However, each of the characters in your party should be able to catch up.

    The Favored Soul is a Tier 2 class and the Warblade, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade and Beguiler are each Tier 3 classes. This means that every class involved is great at the role they're supposed to fill in the group, and also have the ability to fulfill other roles successfully.

    If each of the players in your group take the right feats they're each going to become powerful and very useful characters. The Duskblade and Warblade are obviously going to outdamage the rest in melee damage, but if your party works well together you should be able to do amazing things.

    ~~~~



    Basic Pros and Cons:


    Pros:
    Full BAB
    d12
    Light/Medium Armor, Shields
    4 + Int Skill Points
    A handful of decently useful feats (although nothing spectacular)

    and

    Awesome Spell-like abilities called Maneuvers that replicate different feats or improve the Warblade's Fighting Capabilities
    Great recovery mechanic for their maneuvers (hit something)


    Cons:
    No Full Plate or Tower Shield Proficiency
    2 Weak Saves (Ref and Will)
    Slightly MAD since they need STR and CON but benefit well from DEX and INT
    Out of all the ToB classes the Warblade gets the fewest Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied and Stances Known



    ~


    Now as far as your complaints about the Warblade's Counter Maneuvers (the ones that can replace saves or AC). The Warblade does have access to the Diamond Mind school which has excellent Counter Maneuvers that can really save a Warblade when they're in a tight situation.

    The downside of the Warblade's Counters is that each one takes up a Maneuver Known and if you want to be completely safe all the time, then you need to have those Maneuvers Readied also. Like I said before, the Warblade only gets 4 Maneuvers Readied until level 10. That means that if a Warblade wants to stay careful and have one of each counter for each of his saves, he has to use up 3 Maneuvers Known (out of up to 8 at level 9) and 3 Maneuvers Readied (out of up to 4 at level 9).

    So while the Counters may look glorious and extremely useful, they're abilities that will most likely be ignored most of the time and not even ready when the character needs it, because giving up one of your 4 Maneuvers Readied for a Counter you may or may not need gets old really fast.






    *edit*


    One last thing: Check out your player's character sheet and make sure he's choosing his maneuver's properly. Maneuvers work like Spells in that you have to be Warblade 3 before you can pick up a level 2 maneuver. There's information about how the selection process works on page 39 of the ToB.

    If your player is choosing his maneuvers by thinking he gets lvl 2 maneuvers at Warblade 2 and level 5 maneuvers at Warblade 5, then he's definitely going to highly overpower everyone in your party.

    Also like I mentioned in the other post, check if he took the Martial Stance feat at level 6 or above. If he's a lower level than 10 then he would have to spend a feat to get Thicket of Blades (the stance that lets you attack on 5ft steps).
    Last edited by HunterOfJello; 2010-03-04 at 05:48 AM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that

    We were @lvl 15.

    But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."

    Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

    Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.
    Last edited by ChakraChanter; 2010-03-04 at 05:52 AM.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that

    We were @lvl 15.

    But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."

    Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

    Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.
    The warblade can only use that counter every other round.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    The warblade exists to make melee fun again, by giving you more options in combat. No longer are you limited to just move+attack or 5-ft+full attack.

    Granted, there are some discrepancies (such as iron heart surge and white raven tactics), but I don't think you should condemn ToB just because of a few poorly designed material.
    I never comdemned it. I clearly stated that meleers deserve nice things too, and my issue is with the Warblade (which is being resolved), not ToB, so please correct rectify your claim.
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    It's also worth noting that all of the classes involved in your group are hybrid or spinoff classes that were intended to mix character concepts and create flavored classes. Only the warblade was intended for the purpose of making a stronger character than its original, the rest of these classes were intended to be weaker, but add a level of fun and roleplaying into the mix.


    The Duskblade is the traditional Fighter/Wizard Gish. The Beguiler is the Rogue/Wizard Illusionist hybrid. The Dread Necromancer is a spin-off on Necromancer Wizards/Clerics that was given extra flavor to be fun.

    Each of these three classes was designed to be weaker than a Wizard and lack all of the wizard's power and versatility while still being fun.

    The Favored Soul was just a bad attempt at making a Sorcerer-type Cleric that ended up being worse than a normal cleric in every single way.
    Last edited by HunterOfJello; 2010-03-04 at 05:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Why did you all obliviously avoid the part where I expressed sympathy for the fighter, and I even said that Meleers need/deserve good things too! Why do you all perpetuate on the fact that I don't see that
    Because you seem to be complaining that the Warblade is more powerful than the Fighter even while you acknowledge that the Fighter is too weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    But the issue is that anyone that played a spellcaster was well aware if theu were commiting cheese. The Warblade says," Well because I'm not as strong as they are, I'll do everything I can to explode over the enemy."
    Then your problem is with the player and the party balance, not with the Warblade class.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con...
    ...is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out. You know, if a character wants to pump their Con that high, I'm pretty okay with letting them auto-save at the cost of an immediate action (i.e. once per round).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    I never comdemned it. I clearly stated that meleers deserve nice things too, and my issue is with the Warblade (which is being resolved), not ToB, so please correct rectify your claim.
    So what do you find objectionable about the Warblade that you don't about the Crusader or Swordsage?
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2010-03-04 at 05:57 AM.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    The warblade can only use that counter every other round.

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    Did you purposefully ignore what I stated?
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...
    Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?
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    Why wouldnt they? they know there is allways at least a very small
    chance (5%), that someone will resist a spell, so when joe buckethead fighter makes his dc 40 will save, then the most logical explanation is actualy that it was just pure luck, and that he will not make the next one.

    Also, as someone else have allready mentioned, have you seen how few maneuvers the warblade can normaly prepare? it takes a huge chunk out of them to guard all 3 saves, and it still doesnt help against those nasty spells without a save, like enervation.

    edit.

    Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?
    Just did that, enervation, and ill add one more, Evards tentacles.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2010-03-04 at 06:00 AM.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    With the number of no-save spells available to a wizard of that level, one wonders why the Warblade thinks those maneuvers will save him...
    This. At those levels, ST become almost irrelevant, as the no-save spells tend to rule the game.
    BTW assuming that the casters resort to spells that grant ST, as many have pointed out to have all of his three saves covered the Warblade has to use 3 out of 7 maneuvers...and hope that the following spell of the caster does not target the same ST he previously made with a roll of 1.
    Last edited by Cicciograna; 2010-03-04 at 06:04 AM.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1.
    The alternative is that a run of the mill fighter can pretty much look forward to auto-failing any will-save attack which comes his way. He can expect to either be taken out of combat altogether (if he is lucky) or be turned against his party (if unlucky).

    Your warblade at least has the opportunity to actually stay in the game and contribute meaningfully.

    I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?
    A commoner rolls a natural 20 on his will save and manages to avoid being charmed by a balor. Does this mean the balor should never try charming him ever again?

    You are the DM, make something up. Or use AoE effects, which are far less discriminate in who they target (so you won't seem like you are unfairly targeting the warblade over other PCs, since everyone is getting hosed).

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel



    Please don't make titles like this? It frustrates me to no end.


    I mis-read it as The Warblade Squirrel and now I want that to exist.
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by ChakraChanter View Post
    Is that including cheese or non-cheese? If non-cheese, could you state the spells, or just provide a single example?
    I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

    More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2010-03-04 at 06:13 AM.

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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    (1)Then your problem is with the player and the party balance, not with the Warblade class.
    (2)Because you seem to be complaining that the Warblade is more powerful than the Fighter even while you acknowledge that the Fighter is too weak.

    (3)...is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out. You know, if a character wants to pump their Con that high, I'm pretty okay with letting them auto-save at the cost of an immediate action (i.e. once per round).

    (4) So what do you find objectionable about the Warblade that you don't about the Crusader or Swordsage?
    1. I disagree. Because actual players know, through the tier system, that Warblades are weaker than say a wizard, they will do much to get as close as possible (usually through the means of combat).

    2. I'm certainly not complaining. I just need to accept that ToB is a rework (or however you guys may call it) of melee characters. If it wasn't, I would simply say that it doesn't make sense that the fighter as fewer HD than the Warblade.

    3. ALmost all of my PCs, at least the ones that enter direct combat, usually have 30 Con, if not at least 26 Con (So that would go down to 23 ranks + 8 + at least 1 so they can make a DC:32). I'm not sure if I understand by what you mean by, "is not really a reasonable comparison for a caster with their casting stat maxed out"

    4. Well my lack of knowledge of the other classes can't provide me with a good answer. I have a hard time with the replenish ability, and the manuevers/stances. (Although I'm sure you or someone else will provide clarification as to why the replenish is needed)
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    Default Re: The Warblade Quarrel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas-Dakota View Post


    Please don't make titles like this? It frustrates me to no end.


    I mis-read it as The Warblade Squirrel and now I want that to exist.
    No offense, but your sarcasm is unneeded

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    I don't know if Enervation is cheese or not, but Lord_Khaine gives it. Same goes for the ordinary Forcecage + Cloudkill combo, but again I don't know what we're qualifying as cheese around here. I'm not all that familiar with the spell lists, either.

    More to the point, all this does is allow the Warblade to stay alive--and for one turn, at that. You're condemning him as overpowered because the wizard can't kill him in one try. That's a little unfair, no?
    While the idea is unfair, I explain why that's not the case because it would require Metagaming on the DM's part or fiat

    Furthermore, @LV 20 Wizard/Sorc with 36 in their casting stat with SF and GSF on a 9th lvl spell would be a DC:34. A Lvl 20 Warblade with 30 Con and 23 ranks in Concentration can make that on a 1. I just don't see the fairness, although you coud continue to argue that the wizard will just throw the same spell at him, (but that would entail Metagaming from the DM, along with DM fiat) but logically since it failed the first time, why would a someone try the same thing again?

    Edit: I can't stress it enough that, in a matter of life and death, you will come prepared, so it is at no expense to the player, especially if needed, he can replenish and rearrange his manuevers for the encounter iirc.
    Last edited by ChakraChanter; 2010-03-04 at 06:19 AM.
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