[3.5] Body Outside Body - how much can it do?

[Pechvarry]

My search fu is weak and I can't get the forums to search for the word "outside" so sorry if this has been discussed to death before.

Wu Jen spell: Body outside body (Complete Arcane). Creates some clones of you for a while. Lots of questions about this spell, though. And thought I'd see how you guys would rule some of this. First, the pertinent part of the spell's wording:

Creates "duplicates of you, all of which share your ability scores, personality, class levels, skills, feats, and memories." They carry mundane versions of your gear and it specifically states "they cannot cast spells or use any spell completion or spell trigger items."

Given all that, 1st issue: they have my feats and class levels. This means they have all of my class features. This means they have spellcasting, they simply cannot cast spells. Right? Ergo, Reserve feats should still behave for my clones, as should Arcane Strike (CW) and so on. They have the spell energy, they just can't cast it.

Or is there something glaring that says otherwise?

2nd issue: those funny class features they get? What if they're martial maneuvers? Do the clones pop out with them fully readied? Or at least, presumably, in the state of your own maneuvers (if you had 2 expended and 2 readied, they'd have the same 2 expended and the same 2 ready to go)?

3rd issue: what about limited use abilities? Let's say I have a 1/day ability. My clones get to use that? Only if that of the original (me) is unused (this last seems very much like a reasonable DM-imposed rule, but I can't make sense of it RAW)?

4th issue: assuming I cast this spell in combat, what's their initiative? This spell doesn't have a 1 round casting time. Thus, assuming it works like a summon creature spell, they should all get actions immediately and act on my initiative. Should they be rolling their own initiative instead?

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To put this into focus: I've been working on a wu jen/warblade/jade phoenix mage build (mystical samurai, flavor-wise). It looks like I can pull off the following:

Start off a fight by creating a few clones. Have them all delay their actions to stagger their initiative (so if I have an initiative of 16, have one act at 15, one at 14, etc) and daisy chain White Raven Tactics (everyone's favorite cheese!) to get me additional actions. Additionally, they'll spend their standard actions using Trickery Devotion (CC). I don't have turn attempts, so only once/day. But that's once/day/clone, so each of my clones has their own mostly-real clone. On future turns, they can wade into the melee stacking Arcane Wrath (from JPM) and Arcane Strike because they have the spell slots to spare. Not to mention the JPM stances that both have the option of expending spell slots for additional benefits. If I can find a way to get Iaijutsu as a class skill, those trickery clones can help feint for additional damage, too. Oh, and I'd probably use Mirror Image occasionally just to keep things funny.

Sooo this is silly: Once per week, a JPM 10 can explode in a ball of fire and reform a few rounds later. Once per week.... per clone? At the end of Body Outside Body's duration, the clones all spend their final action detonating in brilliant balls of fire? Even better if I can get them to cluster up around the BBEG and all make ready actions to explode when the clone with the lowest initiative detonates.

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So I think all of this is fun but it's definitely wrangling the most out of RAW. Any input as to whether or not I should be ashamed of myself for thinking seriously about using this in a future campaign? How would you guys rule this?

[Dr Bwaa]

I don't have any experience judging BoB, so I'll leave that up to the rest of the Playground.

However, the best way to search GitP is by googling: site: giantitp.com/forums/ <searchterms>

[SylvanPrincess]

i cant believe this only had 1 response, this is genius :) great job *high five*

[Zom B]

Welllll...just noticed something else. It doesn't say anything about their inability to manifest psionic powers if you have those class levels.

[TaintedLight]

i cant believe this only had 1 response, this is genius :) great job *high five*

I am speechless as well. The sheer genius of using manuevers (especially WRT) with this spell is astounding and you should be rewarded for this.

[Terazul]

March, guys. March.

[Pechvarry]

In all fairness, I linked to this thread in another today. I was pretty emo in march about no one being interested in the topic anyway.

Welllll...just noticed something else. It doesn't say anything about their inability to manifest psionic powers if you have those class levels.

yes, any alt magic system is technically legal. This makes many Wu Jen "double threat" builds pretty hilarious. Wu Jen/Cerebromancer? Wu Jen/Eldritch Theurge? If you can bind vestiges, do the clones pop out with contracts already? Or must they go through the daily ritual as well?

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy is against the forum rules, so please don't do it. The OP's questions never did get answered or discussed, so this thread will remain un-devoured for a bit to give it a chance.

[TaintedLight]

If you can bind vestiges, do the clones pop out with contracts already? Or must they go through the daily ritual as well?

I nearly **** myself before even finishing that sentence...

[Douglas]

I think most or all of your proposed abuse is RAW valid, so congrats on finding ways to make a good spell overpowering. Now just tack on some Incantatrix, high Spellcraft, and a few allied casters to buff everyone, and you'll be on your way to Team Solars (see my sig).

[Halae]

Warlock also seems to work, for eldritch theurging glaivelock cheese

[Andion Isurand]

if you have

Combat Expertise
Improved Combat Expertise
Allied Defense

with Body Outside Body... every party member gets their own bodyguard

//////////////////////////////////////////

if you or your familiar has

Distracting Attack
Swarmfighting

with Body Outside Body... enemy is left feeling very exposed

//////////////////////////////////////////

Also, I dont think Reach Spell and Chain Spell interact the way they are stated in Team Solars.

[Pechvarry]

I think most or all of your proposed abuse is RAW valid, so congrats on finding ways to make a good spell overpowering. Now just tack on some Incantatrix, high Spellcraft, and a few allied casters to buff everyone, and you'll be on your way to Team Solars (see my sig).

When I was originally posting this, your Team Solars is the only mention of this spell on the entire site.

I like where your mind is at, Andion. I was also looking into War Weaver and trying to abuse the wording to argue "I'm one of the assigned targets of my tapestry and all of these clones are me so they get the buffs too!" but I think I gave that up as a lost cause. Eventually, it's not much different than any multi-pet build -- anything that buffs allies allows you to become your own force multiplier.

[TaintedLight]

When I was originally posting this, your Team Solars is the only mention of this spell on the entire site.

I like where your mind is at, Andion. I was also looking into War Weaver and trying to abuse the wording to argue "I'm one of the assigned targets of my tapestry and all of these clones are me so they get the buffs too!" but I think I gave that up as a lost cause. Eventually, it's not much different than any multi-pet build -- anything that buffs allies allows you to become your own force multiplier.

This could actually be LUDICROUS if combined with epic spellcasting...

Create a whole crap-ton of yourself and have them all give up an epic spell slot? Not that epic needs more breaking, but yeah.

[SylvanPrincess]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy is against the forum rules, so please don't do it. The OP's questions never did get answered or discussed, so this thread will remain un-devoured for a bit to give it a chance.

apologies for bringing something up thats 5 months old

pech did link to it in my associated post, and its a good idea that shouldnt go un-noticed. im glad there are so many hits on it now.

i love the epic spell slot idea, itd be fun to play in a game sometime when the dm doesnt respond with nerfing, but instead with beefing up his monsters lol

could this idea somehow be used with the spontaneous healing druid alt feature? 10 clones sac 10 8th level spells for 8 fast healing a round for three rounds.... makes a wu jen/druid/arcane heirophant sound fun again!

[Andion Isurand]

Either way, I give this topic a 21 wand salute.

[WinWin]

The spell copies the caster and creates mundane duplicates of equipment for the duration of the spell.

Duplicates can:
Use mundane copies of equipment (masterwork is mundane, as are some poisons and alchemical gear)
Have magical equipment transferred to them
May have their own familliar (share spell)
Use extraordinary abilities possessed by the caster
Use supernatural abilities possessed by the caster
Use spell/psi like abilities possessed by the caster

Regarding binding, current pacts would probably not transfer. A pact phylactery, fast finding or extended/persistant spells allow for a pact to affect a duplicate.

Prestige class abilities carry across to duplicates. Archmage SLA'say hi. Body ouside of Body as an SLA allows for shenanigans.

[Bayar]

Well, an erudite manifesting Body outside body could have his clones manifest it too...nothing there that prevents psionic powers from being activated. Then, after he has enoguh clones, he does something to fuse himself with all the clones to get about 1000 power points or something.

It was in an old "Erudite is a ****ty class" thread on BG.

Edit: Here you go !

Perhaps an example...

The Alpha Omega
Male Venerable Elan Erudite 20
Str 3, Dex 3, Con 10, Int 30, Wis 18, Cha 9
60 Hit Points; 443 Power Points; 20 Manifester Level
Power Selection: Fusion, Body Outside Body, Psychic Reformation, Greater Arcane Fusion, Schism and any 6 others.

1. Alpha Omega manifests Body Outside Body (15 p.p.) creating 4 master clones (each possessing 15 hit points and 428 p.p.)
2. Each master clone manifests Psychic Reformation (7 p.p.) granting themselves a new list of 11 powers (keeping Body Outside Body, Fusion, and Pyshic Reformation).
3. Each master clone manifests Body Outside Body (15 p.p.) creating 4 clones (each possessing 3 hit points and 406 p.p.)
4. Each clone manifests Psychic Reformation (7 p.p.) granting themselves a new list of 11 powers.
5. Each master clone manifests 4 Fusions (15 p.p.) absorbing their 4 clones (granting themselves 12 hit points, 1596 p.p. and 4 new power lists)
6. Alpha Omega manifests 4 Fusions (15 p.p.) absorbing their 4 master clones (granting themselves 48 hit points, 7768 p.p. and 20 new power lists)

All concluding with the Alpha Omega possessing 108 hit points, 8196 power points and 21 power lists, all within a time frame of 1 minute and 12 seconds. And this handy dandy 6 step process can be continually amplified until the Alpha Omega possess a finite amount of hit points, power points and powers known.

Now, by going all Sylar on your world you can over time (thankfully we're immortal) harvest every single 8th level power and arcane spell ever known. Now I don't claim to be a pro on divine to arcane conversion but if there is any single way (be it Arcane Disciple or the sorcerer ACF Domain Access) than the Alpha Omega can harvest every single 8th level divine spell as well (but in a build like this you don't really need divine spells).

So, in what ways is the Erudite not powerful?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It doesn't beat the Erudite, but I played a Wu Jen gish a sometime ago that used Body Outside Body and Giant Size for some intense whacking.

Rough build was I think Human Paragon 1/Wu Jen 1/HP 2/Wu Jen +1/Ruathar 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 5/Archmage 2 using the SLA options to first give the clones Giant Size at the level you get the spell then waiting until 19th level to take the second level of Archmage to give them Transcend Mortality.

[Pechvarry]

I just realized that, technically, wouldn't magic-psionics transparency (and any other transparencies) hook its claws into this?

It's pretty weak, but expanded psionics only says on the subject:

spells, spell-like-abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics

Doesn't look like enough to sink the Erudite to me. (...yet)

[WinWin]

I am not sure the erudite trick would work, at least not with psionics/magic transparancy. If there was some way to gain those powers as Psi-Like abilities...