Non Wizard/sorcerer Gish?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was wondering... how viable is is to build an arcane gish using non standard spellcasting classes such as:
Wu-Jen
Warmage
Dread Necro
or any other that I might miss.

Personally I believe that the Wu-Jen is quite suited for making a jade phoenix mage.

This thread is not completely without self-interest because I am trying to find a spellcasting class (int based ) to build a JPM : so if anyone has a good suggestion for the class please do tell

[Amphetryon]

Beguiler/Warblade/Abjurant Champion/etc.

Nomad Psion/Slayer.

[sonofzeal]

I was wondering... how viable is is to build an arcane gish using non standard spellcasting classes such as:
Wu-Jen
Warblade
Dread Necro
or any other that I might miss.

Personally I believe that the Wu-Jen is quite suited for making a jade phoenix mage.

This thread is not completely without self-interest because I am trying to find a spellcasting class (int based ) to build a JPM : so if anyone has a good suggestion for the class please do tell

Er, you mean Warmage, right?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Beguiler doesn't sounds to me as the type of class I would build a gish from, so please can you expand on that?

And yes I know the awesome-ness of a psy gish but I want to mantain this thread to stricktly arcane spellcaster if possible

Anyway thanks.

Edit: @Zeal: :smallsight: I hate classes with such similar names, I'll edit right away, thanks for the heads up

[Eldariel]

The principal issue is that the non-Wiz/Sorc classes tend to lack the spells that make arcane gishes good. Some manner of Wu Jen may be doable, but outside that Beguiler has precious few gishy spells (not to mention, you lose out on Advanced Learnings by not advancing Beguiler), Warmage has none of the good stuff, Dread Necro's focus is also pre-determined...

If there was a Transmutation specialist class, it could work out, much like Psy War. As it stands, no, they really aren't very good (Wu Jen's Giant Size-shenanigans again being an exception).

[Dusk Eclipse]

hmmm well thats a pity, but I think dread necro gish might be doable if you focus on touch spells like vampiric touch, false lige, etc. not optimal but maybe doable (sp?)

[Pluto]

You can pretty Much substitute Wu Jen for Wizard in any given Gish and have similar, if slightly inferior results.

I tried a Wu Jen/Crusader/JPM for a couple session once. I don't think we fought anything and I might have used one Detect Thoughts spell or something, but I don't think the build was ever a factor, except in terms of social skills and knowledges.



Beguilers, Warmages and Dread Necromancers can make decent gishes at high levels with Rainbow Servant (even without the RAWdiculous text-trumps-table ruling).

Anima Mage + Persistant Spell + Arcane Disciple can also work, but it plays even less off the classes themselves than RS does.

Beguiler/Swiftblade isn't bad, but it's more a caster who happens to have high BA than it is a real gish.

Fighter 1/Warmage or Dread Necromancer/Spellsword 5 might be a fun skeleton for a character in a low-optimization game: channel any spell through a melee attack.

Dread Necromancer/anything can probably use Smiting Spell and Divine Might to good effect.

If you use Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon, you can cast offensive spells from any class, move into the fray and force enemies to provoke attacks outside your turn. Class doesn't really matter for this style of Gish. (Though this probably means Thicket of Blades, which points to JPM as a PrC.)

Abjurant Champion, JPM and Arcane Strike can use any Arcane class as a damage battery. It's not a good idea in any case, compared to just casting the spells, but if you need to brute-force Gish-ness onto an uncooperating arcane class, it can help.

...But yeah. These classes aren't really made for this.

[gorfnab]

How about some Bard based gish builds.
Bard 6/ Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8
Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 (or just Eldritch Knight 8)
Bard 7/ Fighter 1/ Eldritch Knight 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 (or just Eldritch Knight 8)
Bard 7/ Eldritch Knight 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 (or just Eldritch Knight 8, build requires Militia feat)

[Eldariel]

Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3 (or just Eldritch Knight 8)

Nononononono, the Sublime Archer should be Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4

The only weakness this build has is lacking few very key 1-3 spells in True Strike, Flame Arrow and Greater Magic Weapon. Friendly Wizard or some items (Staves?) could of course provide though...

This gets you turning which gets you Divine Might which gets you lots of damage. Oh, and full casting. And all other manners of goodies. And yeah, Sublime Chord is made for Gishes but since it's pretty much fast progression Sorcerer, I usually fail to mention it.

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget about Sacred Exorcist, a VERY good Sublime Chord addon class. Something like

Paladin2/Bard8/SublimeChord2/AbjChamp4/SacEx4

is pretty solid. Devoted Performer would net you 12 music uses per day to power some Lyric Spell or Metamagic Song shananigans, and SacEx would get you Turn Undead to power Divine and Devotion feats. Lots of Cha synergy even though it is a bit of a late bloomer. 16 BAB and 10/10 SC casting.

Also, there is Suel Arcanamach, which is kinda a gish in a can. They have access to nearly all of the good 1st - 5th Transmutation, Abjuration, and Illusion combat buffs.

Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

is a pretty straightforward SA build. Pal4 gives Turn Undead to power Divine and Devotion feats, along with +Cha to saves, Duskblade2 gives some 1st level spells to feed into Versatile Spellcaster, along with free Combat Casting (to get into AbjChamp). Suel gives 3/4 BAB, a decent skill list, some interesting features (+6 CL vs dispels and auto extend) along with your base spellcasting. Abjurant Champion sets your CL to your BAB, which ends at 18, which then Suels +6 kicks in and gives you a CL24 vs dispels, CL26 if you are Illumian or take Practiced Spellcaster, and even higher if you invest in the ring that gives +4 to resist dispels. Dragon Disciple is actually a good addon here, as Suel progression caps at 10, DD's ability to grant extra spell slots is actually the only way to really progress it, not to mention the +4 Str, +2 NA, and natural weapons. Aeshkrau Illumians work out REALLY well for this build, allowing you to pump Str with minimal investment in Cha since almost none of your spells will allow saves.

Spells of note would be Shield, Whirling Blade, Bladeweave, Fly, Greater Mirror Image, Greater Mighty Wallop/Weapon, Bite of the Werewolf, Lightning Leap, etc.

So yea, there are some decent gishes that don't use wizard or sorcerer bases. They aren't quite as powerful or as versatile as a standard sorcadin or wizard/EK build, but they are still high T3 and great party contributors.

[Dr Bwaa]

Dread Necromancer can make a pretty powerful gish if you build it right (revolves around being able to touch yourself for HP, your negative energy burst healing you and any undead minions you have, etc. It's pretty strong; you can do a decent Lord of the Uttercold build with it too, IIRC). See here and here for details (make sure you expand all the spoilers in the first one, iirc the formatting is kind of screwed up).