ToB: flavor?

[randomhero00]

This is not in reference to groups banning Tome of Battle from a balance/OP perspective, but for the groups that ban it from a flavor/fluff perspective where it doesn't fit into there game. I'm just curious as to why? I've seen that referenced several times about the flavor not fitting (but not seen it explained), and don't get it at all. My game allows it so this isn't a rant or anything, just out of curiosity.

Is it because they are martial classes with flashy effects? Why should wizards et al be the only ones with flashy powers eh? I mean if we can interact with giant flying spellcasting talking lizards that like to shapechange and mate with other species, a guy that can make his sword enflamed isn't all that flashy...'

Or is it some other reason I'm not thinking of?

[Elfin]

Most who ban it from a fluff perspective, in my experience, do so because they feel the flavor is overly Eastern.

Personally, I think that the Tome of Battle is easy enough to fit into a European world (though it probably helps that I actually like the flavor), but it's undoubtedly somewhat divergent from the standard setting.

[KellKheraptis]

Most people I know of here seem to make the comparison to Jedi. They just don't realize I can make a DnD lightsaber just fine without Diamond Mind maneuvers (or Soulknife).

[Superglucose]

Most who ban it from a fluff perspective, in my experience, do so because they feel the flavor is overly Eastern.

That.

It's not a wrong decision nor is playing with ToB a "wrong" decision, it's just a decision. Can we stop having bloody wars over whether or not some gaming group who lives approximately 30000000000 miles away from you uses one book that you happen to really like?

[aivanther]

The group I was in the banned it from fluff perspective thought it violated the idea of warrior-esque groups, as the stances and maneuvers flow basically into a "warrior-mage" flavor, meaning everyone was basically some sort of mage variant.

[sonofzeal]

The word that gets thrown around a lot is "too anime", which is (imo) entirely a misnomer. What it is, is too much like "Action Hero". While Crusaders and Swordsages come more on the magical end of the spectrum (and if you toss out that, you lose Monks and Rangers and Paladins), all three still land solidly under Action Hero. Warblades especially don't get anything overtly supernatural, but do some stunts that would make Conan or Xena or Captain America proud. Any ToB character is going to be considerably more Action Heroic than a corresponding Fighter or Barbarian.

This to me is a perfectly valid fluff complaint, and a totally legitimate reason not to use it if you don't think D&D, or your game in particular, should have Action Heroes. This isn't about anime (action heroes are common there but predate the genre), or about breaking the laws of physics (some ToB is supernatural and clearly marked as such but the rest is usually in the realm of stuff that's not realistic but still technically possible). If you don't like the feel of Action Heroes, well, that's that and I don't think anyone will disagree with you. Of course, you tread near the dangerous waters of "melee can't have nice things" then, and imo that just killed enjoyment around the table.

[randomhero00]

Most who ban it from a fluff perspective, in my experience, do so because they feel the flavor is overly Eastern.

Ahh, I suppose that makes sense. Although for every bit of eastern flavor there is an equal amount of other stuff. Like crusader has always felt pretty gothic/medieval to me.

It's not a wrong decision nor is playing with ToB a "wrong" decision, it's just a decision. Can we stop having bloody wars over whether or not some gaming group who lives approximately 30000000000 miles away from you uses one book that you happen to really like?

Say what? I went out of my way to say I was asking out of curiosity. No one is fighting here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some people seem to think that you are required to fluff the attacks as Anime-Style, complete with shouting out "CHESTNUTS ROASTING OVER AN OPEN FIRE TECHNIQUE!!!" when using any maneuver.

Fluff is... fluff. It's mutable, however you wish to do it. Not everyone gets that.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I've never understood banning anything for flavor, personally. A good (or even average) person can completely rework the fluff and make it still work.

ToB is especially confusing, since the most common reason is because the fluff is too Eastern. Combine the fact that I don't get where people are coming from with this with above not understanding banning for flavor at all, and you have a confused Dark Fiddler.

[randomhero00]

Some people seem to think that you are required to fluff the attacks as Anime-Style, complete with shouting out "CHESTNUTS ROASTING OVER AN OPEN FIRE TECHNIQUE!!!" when using any maneuver.

Fluff is... fluff. It's mutable, however you wish to do it. Not everyone gets that.

+1
I always refluff every character I make anyways, to be more in tune to my background. I had a crusader for instance that was taught to fight by devils (long story) and was very dark. He fought for redemption. His fluff was closer to a Death Knight type (his heals where based in necromancy for instance).

[AslanCross]

Ahh, I suppose that makes sense. Although for every bit of eastern flavor there is an equal amount of other stuff. Like crusader has always felt pretty gothic/medieval to me.

True; the crusader is really pretty much just a warrior who achieves superhuman feats because of his faith, which is slightly more common in the West than in the East, by my reckoning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eastern archetypes achieve supernatural feats often achieve superhuman feats by actually being deities (Rama or Krishna, for example), or by being really awesome (Musashi Miyamoto). There are also some characters who do gain power through devotion: Arjuna, his rival Ashwatthama, and even demons like Ravana.

In the West, you've got Roland, Joan of Arc, and a whole bunch of warrior-saints. Mostly I find that the crusader's fluff is more dependent on the deity he or she serves rather than the maneuvers he gets. In fact when I make crusaders, I often change the names completely. For an evil crusader, Revitalizing Strike would be something like Blood Indulgence; The deity grants a surge of strength for the blood that was just spilled. A worshiper of Tiamat's Divine Surge would be Invoke the Dragonqueen.

[Apollo1776]

I guess it does seem a little "eastern".

Personally I like it; it adds some nice flare to the fighting classes. All of the sudden up-front warriors aren't limited to "here sword. go kill." They have more tactics and abilities. Like ya' know, they know what they're doing in a fight.

[Boci]

Exactly. Here's a couple of post's from my swordsage in a play-by-post game. He's just wierd gish simply put, and without the supernatural maneuvers he your standard fighter.

So this was what it was like. The feeling before battle: the heightened awareness, the illusion of elsewhere. Chantiff raised his blade, an action that seemed to take for eternity. He must not think, else his mind would over analyse the situation leaving no time for his body to act. It was instant that would direct him in his first battle.
His feet fell softly across the rough earthen floor. The first foul creature loomed up as he neared. Deep within his soul, the secret he had invited in stirred. The steel of his own blade seemed to blur, as if its substance fed the other one that momentarily sprung into existence. The two razor sharp edges closed in on the kobold. Chantiff could see the creature’s semi scaled skin; eyes squinted against the bright glare of his torch.
But then the second blade disappeared. Furiously Chantif realized his concentrated had lapsed, ruining the technique. Worse, he had underestimated how harder it was to use the manoeuvre in combat and the strain of recalling it had enfeebled his main attack. As a last ditch effort he projected onto the blade the anger he felt. The energy left him, surrounding his weapon and fire licked the metal.

Chantif allowed himself a moment to mentally inform the god of luck that he did not deserve her ire, before adapting his strategy. Instinct had failed him, so now was he going to give his analytical mind a chance. He needed to move, otherwise the shadows cloaking him would shed and he would vulnerable to the kobold’s attacks. That much was sure.
Releasing his leg muscles he fell backwards, arching his back to land on his shoulders first, and completing the movement by throwing his legs forwards and allowing momentum to carrying away from the kobold, too swift to give him an opening.
He flashed his eyes around as he chose his next opponent. With short, efficient steps he moved into melee with the next generic kobold in line.
His opponent was placing more weight on his left leg, and his stance protected that limb in favour of the other.
In a flash Chantif moved, aiming a kick at his opponent left leg, causing the kobold to step back. The kick fell short as he had anticipated, but now Chantif’s blade made a straight line for the kobold right left, aiming directly for the blood vessel located at the top of the thigh.
To seal the kobold fate, Chantiff let the final reserve of his soul's fire loose. It flowed around the kobold, unnoticed, until it consolidated into a flame. It lived for but a second, but that was all he needed.

In slow motion. That was how Chantif saw the powerful, overhead blow. He did not know how, but his adrenaline glands were still working, keeping his body alert, making sure it pulled through this ordeal, or series of them, alive.
But just as he felt the subconscious part of his mind preparing him to jump back, a second substance, far more subtle than adrenaline, began to direct his body. He stepped forwards, aligning his body but an inch away from his opponent.
In such close proximity, the orc's weapon was useless. The brute looked down to see the shortsword stuck hilt deep in his chest. "A fighting style that abandons all defense for power is just a glorified form of suicide," he whispered in his opponent's ear, before wrenching his blade free.

[Morty]

That.

It's not a wrong decision nor is playing with ToB a "wrong" decision, it's just a decision. Can we stop having bloody wars over whether or not some gaming group who lives approximately 30000000000 miles away from you uses one book that you happen to really like?

Truer words have never been spoken. Or more likely, they have. But those are true nonetheless.

[Boci]

That.
It's not a wrong decision nor is playing with ToB a "wrong" decision, it's just a decision.

But saying ToB characters must be eastern flavour is wrong.

Can we stop having bloody wars over whether or not some gaming group who lives approximately 30000000000 miles away from you uses one book that you happen to really like?

Usually people are annoyed by the reason the book is not used. For example, once poster said as a DM he would not allow the book to be used by his players, because he did not like it, whoch is a bad sign for a DM.

[Morty]

Usually people are annoyed by the reason the book is not used.

At the risk of being Captain Obvious, why do you care? I mean, some people out there refuse to use a single D&D supplement for reasons you find illogical or blatantly untrue. What's the big deal?

[Boci]

At the risk of being Captain Obvious, why do you care? I mean, some people out there refuse to use a single D&D supplement for reasons you find illogical or blatantly untrue. What's the big deal?

Why do you care about my attempts to do this? Why do we bother pointing out if someone has the rules wrong? Why do we comment on other poster's house rules? This is an internet forume for discussions and arguments. Personally, I do it because I sleep better knowing I have liberated more groups from the aweful core melee system.

[Morty]

Why do you care about my attempts to do this? Why do we bother pointing out if someone has the rules wrong? This is an internet forume for discussions and arguments. Personally, I do it because I sleep better knowing I have liberated more groups from the aweful core melee system.

Oh-kay. I don't think I can argue against that. See, in the most cases, I belive that if someone thinks something, they have a legitimate reason for that. So if you belive that fiercely arguing that not using ToB is wrong makes the world better, more power to you.

[Boci]

Oh-kay. I don't think I can argue against that. See, in the most cases, I belive that if someone thinks something, they have a legitimate reason for that.

And your wrong. Most new DMs think blatant rail roading is okay, and some thing super powerful DMPCs are as well (I am guilty of both). But as we play we learn otherwise. Whether or not to use ToB is a less clear cut case, but I argue for it never-the-less.

So if you belive that fiercely arguing that not using ToB is wrong makes the world better, more power to you.

So in the above example, is some DM fiercly believed super powerful DMPCs were cool, would you argue with him?

[Morty]

And your wrong. Most new DMs think blatant rail roading is okay, and some thing super powerful DMPCs are as well (I am guilty of both). But as we play we learn otherwise. Whether or not to use ToB is a less clear cut case, but I argue for it never-the-less.



So in the above example, is some DM fiercly believed super powerful DMPCs were cool, would you argue with him?

I said: in most cases.

[DragoonWraith]

{Scrubbed}

[Boci]

I said: in most cases.

So people have right to argue for something as long as you believe it? I like ToB, but if someone thinks that using it is detrimental to the game I have no problem with them laying out their evidence for their case.

[Morty]

{Scrubbed}

Perhaps I should have phrased it better. I wasn't talking about serious decisions, but about personal preferences. Such as what to use when playing a tabletop game.

So people have right to argue for something as long as you believe it? I like ToB, but if someone thinks that using it is detrimental to the game I have no problem with them laying out their evidence for their case.

Evidence? They don't need evidence. They don't like it. It's not an academic debate. It's a game. If using ToB isn't fun for them, it's all the reason they need for not using it. If a DM says that he won't use it because he doesn't like it, it's only a problem when the rest of the group wants to use it, and in that case it should be dealt with as any other such case.

[Boci]

Evidence? They don't need evidence. They don't like it. It's not an academic debate. It's a game. If using ToB isn't fun for them, it's all the reason they need for not using it. If a DM says that he won't use it because he doesn't like it, it's only a problem when the rest of the group wants to use it, and in that case it should be dealt with as any other such case.

But why don't they like it? This is where the flawed logci is usually found if there is any. Counter argument: I really like super powerful DMPCs, so thats all the reason I need to use them.

[Pluto]

I like ToB, but lots of people I play with don't. I don't try to tell them they're wrong, because they're not.

Swordsage maneuvers don't really jibe with the feel of most our games. The swirling shadows and firey swords aren't so bad on their own (Fighter/Wizards are usually acceptable), but packaged together, they don't really... fit. They evoke the grinning comic book villain as he literally fades into the shadows and the anime warrior who juggles flames. This is not the sort of game we usually play. (And when we do, it's in the context of a knight swinging a magical flaming sword, not a bladewitch initiating a Desert Tempest Strike... most of it is language.)

The titles of maneuvers are reminiscient of kung fu movies, not of European myths (nothing I've heard of anyway). Yes, titled techniques are just as common in western martial arts. That doesn't matter. When I hear Wolf Fang Strike, I think of 70's kung fu films. It's the only place the title fits for me -- I don't know anyone who studies historical swordplay. I think that's true of most people who complain about that aspect.

(edit: As far as "fluff is mutable," so is crunch. Except on internet forums, the flavor text is less maleable than its rules -- the Order of the Bow Initiate might suck, but one player in my group took levels in it nonetheless because it matches the character he wants to play. And when he realized just how weak it is, we swapped the bonus damage for ranged sneak attack. In another game a long time ago, someone used a Druid. We realized just how silly it was, and we reworked Wild shape to give ability modifers rather than new abilities.)

And even these aren't the driving forces for avoiding the book. It's these and the book optimizing itself (which is terrible in games where the wizard is throwing Burning Hands around and the Cleric deliberately tanks his initiative so that he can wait for someone to be hurt before he takes his turn to heal) and the burden to learn a new set of rules and yet another sourcebook to pile onto the table. (I've never known anyone who actively disliked the book; it's usually a general indifference and a feeling of "neat idea, but not for our game.")

[Morty]

But why don't they like it? This is where the flawed logci is usually found if there is any. Counter argument: I really like super powerful DMPCs, so thats all the reason I need to use them.

Are you seriously arguing super powerful DMPCs aren't more destructive for the game than not using a single non-core book?

[Roderick_BR]

I've never understood banning anything for flavor, personally. A good (or even average) person can completely rework the fluff and make it still work.

ToB is especially confusing, since the most common reason is because the fluff is too Eastern. Combine the fact that I don't get where people are coming from with this with above not understanding banning for flavor at all, and you have a confused Dark Fiddler.

Saying that something is "too anime"(or weeaboo, or narutard, or whatever) and therefore bad, is trendy, didn't you know?

[Boci]

Are you seriously arguing super powerful DMPCs are no more destructive for the game than not using a single non-core book?

Its impossible to quantify and compare the two, since there are too many unknown variables, can I can think of situations where yes, the latter has a greater impact. So generally no, but sometimes yes.

[HunterOfJello]

Rename Swordsage to Swordmage and change his Wisdom abilities all to Intelligence. The new Swordmages can be like Thayan Knights who were taught magical abilities to protect powerful wizards. Keep Warblades as Special Forces fighter types. And make Crusaders have their divine powers inborn like Favored Souls.

Ta Da! No longer eastern.



(And pretty much exactly like their original flavor text anyway.)

[AslanCross]

I'm really fine with people eventually deciding not to use it. What I try to do is to show people another perspective, especially since I'm Asian (albeit from probably the most Westernized Asian country with our American first names and Spanish surnames), and that the representation of the East in popular culture is rarely accurate.

What I react to really strongly is the use of the loathsome term "weeaboo," which thankfully has not come up in the same way it did in the last thread that got locked.