Good Shadow Conjuration uses

[Frosty]

Ok, so I'm thinking about picking up Shadow Conjuration as my 7th level Beguiler/Mindbender 1 Advanced Learning choice (Beguilers don't really get a lot of good choices at low levels since they know almost all the good enchantment and illusion spells I feel). Can peeps give me some tips as to how a Beguiler can use Shadow Conjuration to good effect? Can I use it to summon a Phantom Steed in one standard action instead of 10 minutes? Can I use it to summon Greater Mage Armor to protect me? (do enemies get a will save to disbelieve the armor and ignore most of it?) What are some generally good uses for it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shadow conjuration can mimic any spell of the conjuration school up to a certain level IIRC. Find some conjurations you like and put em to work. As for your examples: yes, you could use use shadow conjuration that way, though in the case of the mage armor you'd use shadow conjuration's duration instead of mage armor's. As for the save vs disbelief, It'd be up to your DM if the enemy got a save. If he did it wouldn't be made until he attempted/succeeded to hit you at least once.

[Frosty]

Shadow conj doesn't have its own Duration it works off of whatever spell it mimics. I'm looking for good spells to mimic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Word of warning: Using Shadow Conjuration not only adds SR: YES, but also adds a Will Save on top of it. This makes it sub-par for many uses. Greater Magic Armor is a good one to use it on, as you can always choose to fail your will save.

If you don't mind that, you can always do a lot of good crowd control with it. Stinking Cloud, Grease, Web...

[Xan_Kriegor]

I'd just like to add in that Shadow Conjuration has the following stipulation (albeit minor, but it's still something of note):

Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.

Mage Armor is a (creation) spell, so it still works, but just make sure to check what descriptors your spells have so you can cast them.

[Pluto]

I'm a big fan of Phantom Steed.

Create Magic Tatoo is pretty neat also (when it's a cheap +1 CL, anyway).

Sleet Storm can be a good time if your party disbelieves.

[Sinfire Titan]

Major Creation, obv.


Just make sure the Shadow version you are using is more real than it should be.

[magic9mushroom]

Major Creation, obv.


Just make sure the Shadow version you are using is more real than it should be.

With what, Black Lotus Poison?

[BobVosh]

Summon shadow pies! Wait, wrong thread.

Anyway there is the gnome alt class feature and whatever else the deadly gnome build uses that can pump a greater shadow conj/evoc to 120% real.

[Felyndiira]

Phantom Steed is always a nice thing to use with Shadow Conjuration. Hopefully your DM wouldn't be mean enough to rule that a shadow steed has a 80% chance of items falling through it.

Be aware, though - a shadowed greater mage armor will allow enemies attacking you to disbelieve, since by the process of attacking they're interacting with the shadowed spell. In that case, they get a will save to basically ignore 80% of your mage armor's AC, not counting spell resistance.

Sleet Storm, Grease, and all of the other conjuration spells work in a similar manner; they're all now SR:YES and allow a will save. Thus, if your enemy succeeds in their will save against grease, they now only have a 20% chance of slipping on it IF they fail their balance checks.

Major Creation, obv.

Can't do. The OP is asking for Shadow Conjuration (4th level spell), which can only duplicate a conjuration of 3rd level or lower, which major creation is not.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Be aware, though - a shadowed greater mage armor will allow enemies attacking you to disbelieve, since by the process of attacking they're interacting with the shadowed spell. In that case, they get a will save to basically ignore 80% of your mage armor's AC, not counting spell resistance.

Not true. It's a Shadow effect, not a Glamor effect, so people interacting with it don't get a save. Only the target gets one, which you can choose to fail.

Sleet Storm, Grease, and all of the other conjuration spells work in a similar manner; they're all now SR:YES and allow a will save. Thus, if your enemy succeeds in their will save against grease, they now only have a 20% chance of slipping on it IF they fail their balance checks.

This is partially true. If they make their will save, the effect is completely negated, as a partial effect on the above spells = no effect.

So yes, it gives them an additional save. However, if their will save is crap... go for it.

[Frosty]

Well if their Will Save is crap to begin with...then hello...Beguiler here!

So far I've got Create Magic tattoo (not sure what book) and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm. Anything else? I'm looking to shore up my lack of non-Will-targetting options really. I've got Solid Fog for BC when I get level 8 anyways.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well if their Will Save is crap to begin with...then hello...Beguiler here!

So far I've got Create Magic tattoo (not sure what book) and Stinking Cloud and Sleet Storm. Anything else? I'm looking to shore up my lack of non-Will-targetting options really. I've got Solid Fog for BC when I get level 8 anyways.

Anything done with Shadow Conjuration, by default, targets will, in addition to whatever. So that's not gonna help you a whole lot.

A better idea would be to go for something like Sandshaper or Rainbow Servant cheese to increase your spells known list. Maybe the feat to add a domain to your Spells Known list...

[Zaq]

Basically, you want spells that don't offer a save. Ones that target your allies, or that work indirectly (Wall of Stone is too high-level for Shadow Conjuration, but it's a good example). If you're not targeting an enemy, you'll be ok.

Also, summon monster. Not fantastic for fighting, but still good for getting SLAs, trapspringers, or everything else that summon monster is useful for.

[Felyndiira]

Not true. It's a Shadow effect, not a Glamor effect, so people interacting with it don't get a save. Only the target gets one, which you can choose to fail.

Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature.

People interacting with it does get a save alongside the target, so a shadow (greater) mage armor would let you will save for 20% real. This extends to all spells that do not allow a save; as long as the spell requires interaction of any kind, the 20% rule applies.

Now, if their will save is horrible...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

People interacting with it does get a save alongside the target, so a shadow (greater) mage armor would let you will save for 20% real. This extends to all spells that do not allow a save; as long as the spell requires interaction of any kind, the 20% rule applies.

Now, if their will save is horrible...

The problem is that they aren't being affected by it. Let's try reading from the actual description of the spell:

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless the affected creature succeeds on a Will save. Each disbelieving creature takes only one-fifth (20%) damage from the attack. If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is only 20% likely to occur. Regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow conjuration’s level (4th) rather than the spell’s normal level. In addition, any effect created by shadow conjuration allows spell resistance, even if the spell it is simulating does not. Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.

The affected creature is... the caster, who voluntarily fails his save. No one else is affected, thus they don't get a save.

[Frosty]

I emulate a Phantom Steed! I cast it from shadows but I will keep TELLING myself that it is REAL until I stop falling through it

On another topic, if I have only 13000 gold to spend for a Beguiler, what are some good investments? Headband of Int obviously. What else?

[ericgrau]

I'm a big fan of Phantom Steed.

Pick utility spells like this one. Any offensive spell will have both an extra save and SR which can be a real drag. Utility spells are often weaker than others due to being situational, but now you can figure out a nice big long list of them so that the sheer number of options fixes this.

[2xMachina]

Is there anyway to get Shadow Illusions? Like Silent Image etc. but add Shadow sub-type to it? Would be fun. Illusions that are 20% real.

Walking along a bridge, when you suddenly hear, "This bridge is a shadow illusion you know". Then you fall down like Wile E. Coyote.

[Frosty]

Pick utility spells like this one. Any offensive spell will have both an extra save and SR which can be a real drag. Utility spells are often weaker than others due to being situational, but now you can figure out a nice big long list of them so that the sheer number of options fixes this.

Can you suggest such a list? That's the real purpose of this thread. What good conjuration ulitity spells are there that doesn't mess with the enemy?

hmm...I make a Shadowy Pass Door! I run across it but then tell you it's an illusion right when you're about to enter! *bam* Road Runner laughs. *meep meep*

[Fitz10019]

Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are invisible, no? Do shadow conjurations look shadowy? Would the fact that this person has semi-visible armor prompt the saving throw to disbelieve?

[El Dorado]

Grease
Deep Breath
Unseen Servant and Servant Horde
Mount and Regal Procession
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Sleet Storm
Wall of Smoke
Mage Armor and Mass Mage Armor

Lesser Orb of X

[ericgrau]

Can you suggest such a list? That's the real purpose of this thread. What good conjuration ulitity spells are there that doesn't mess with the enemy?

hmm...I make a Shadowy Pass Door! I run across it but then tell you it's an illusion right when you're about to enter! *bam* Road Runner laughs. *meep meep*

d20 spell filter to the rescue. Settings: conjuration (creation). I found the following utility items:
phantom steed
mage's faithful hound (alarm function is only reliable part)
phase door
secure shelter
unseen servant

2nd search set to conjuration (summoning):
secret chest
instant summons
mount
EDIT: summon monster I also has utility uses; maybe other higher level summons with special abilities too

IMO, mage armor would only be partially effective after someone attacks you and makes their save. You don't need to see an illusion to interact with it. But besides all that there's no point. Just cast mage armor in the morning with a much lower level spell slot. It's not like you need versatility for such a thing.

[quiet1mi]

Servant horde stops people from charging...

shadow conjuration phantom steeds gives you the ability to move the party hundreds of miles within hours instead of weeks.

shadow conjuration summon monster 3, 1d4+1 ravens so they can aid another the party fighter for an additional +10 to hit (+2 flanking, +8 aid another when 4 of them hit AC 10)

[Felyndiira]

The problem is that they aren't being affected by it. Let's try reading from the actual description of the spell:

The affected creature is... the caster, who voluntarily fails his save. No one else is affected, thus they don't get a save.

When a creature attacks mage armor, their attacks are affected by the fact that their attacks are being stopped by the mage armor (hence the AC boost). To say that only a creature affected by a shadow conjuration at the time of its casting leads to unfortunate complications that contradicts with the spell text.

One example is shadow summons. Now, a creature can never be affected by a summoning unless if the summoned creature was targeted to somehow deal damage upon summoning (remember: summons list no targets); instead, they are affected by the summoned creature's attacks and defense as they enter battle against it. However, the Shadow Conjuration rules specifically states rules for disbelieving shadow summons, which implies that despite not being "affected" by a shadow conjuration at the time of summoning, a target is "affected" by the conjuration as soon as he attacks it, or as soon as it attacks him.

Now, mage armor is not bull's strength; it doesn't give a flat bonus to an attribute via a transmutive effect to your body. Instead, it actually summons a coat of magical armor that blocks attacks. Thus, when someone attacks a mage, their blocks may be blocked by the mage armor; thusly, they are affected by mage armor.

The sentence that I quoted from the spell, in fact, specifically states that any interaction with the conjuration spell counts as giving the target a will save. So, unless if your definition of affected is such that somehow, interacting with something that doesn't affect the target upon casting gives a will save for no effect, I don't see how, exactly, an attacker won't get a will save for attacking mage armor.

secret chest
instant summons

I'm trying to figure out how secret chest would work in this case. Since items automatically succeed in their will saves (unattended), would they have a 40% chance to fall out of the 60% real chest? If so, would they fall to the ground, or to the ethereal plane? Same with instant summons.

[ericgrau]

Unattended non-magical items automatically fail their saves. Yet another reason for using the spell for utility. Magic items have a save bonus equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level. They get a save, or if attended the owner may use his saving throw bonus if higher.

[Lord Vukodlak]

For a real headache the shadowgnome killer build can end up with shadow spells that are over 100% real.

The truth becomes more horrifying then the illusion.

[Jack_Simth]

Unattended non-magical items automatically fail their saves. Yet another reason for using the spell for utility. Magic items have a save bonus equal to 2 + 1/2 the item's caster level. They get a save, or if attended the owner may use his saving throw bonus if higher.

Normally, that would be true. In the case of Shadow Conjuration, though, they've got a specific exception, and are always treated as having beaten the save.

[Jack_Simth]

Basically, you want spells that don't offer a save. Ones that target your allies, or that work indirectly (Wall of Stone is too high-level for Shadow Conjuration, but it's a good example). If you're not targeting an enemy, you'll be ok.

If you think about a Greater Shadow Conjuration(Wall of Stone) too much, you'll get a headache.

It's Instant, so there's no magic there after the casting.
It looks perfectly normal from a distance.
But if someone touches it (and makes their save), it's a vague shadow inside of a transparent outline.
And someone who recognizes it for what it is has a 40% chance of being able to simply ignore it (blocking you is a non-damaging effect in most cases, is it not?).
Oh yes, and a golem can walk straight through it, uninterrupted, as the non-magical wall allows spell resistance.

Also, summon monster. Not fantastic for fighting, but still good for getting SLAs, trapspringers, or everything else that summon monster is useful for.

What it's useful for is standard action flanking for the rogue. That does a LOT of damage, and it doesn't matter if the "target" beats the save, as the 20% real shadow-beast still threatens.

[ericgrau]

Normally, that would be true. In the case of Shadow Conjuration, though, they've got a specific exception, and are always treated as having beaten the save.

In that case...

I'm trying to figure out how secret chest would work in this case. Since items automatically succeed in their will saves (unattended), would they have a 40% chance to fall out of the 60% real chest? If so, would they fall to the ground, or to the ethereal plane? Same with instant summons.

The spell says the effects are 60% likely to occur. So 40% chance the summon fails.