[3.5] Evil cleric questions

[Biotroll]

Hullo there.

I'm planning to play evil cleric on our next session (new DM, new characters) but I have no experiences with it. Sure I played good cleric but I guess the way you play evil cleric is bit different. So, what's your experiences with playing evil cleric(s)? Is it real problem not being able to convert spell to cure spells (low levels (3-5 I guess, DM didn't say exactly which level), low wealth game)? Also, are there any nice prestige classes for evil clerics I should look to in future? And finaly, what's your most favored evil deity?

[Bibliomancer]

If your entire party is necropolitan (Libris Mortis, I think, LA +0), then your inflict spells can be used for both offense and healing.

Apart from that, find two domains that offer good spells and make a new deity if none fit. Luck and Travel are both good (both have powerful domain abilities and good granted spells).

[SartheKobold]

Ur-Priest is a rather cheesy PrC to take into if you're not that attached to your deity... Playing an Evil Cleric requires a change of tactics. Mainly preventative measures for hp damage on your tank. Shield Other helps, but you're kind of squishy as it is. Hordes of Zombies/Skellys is another widely used tactic. Essentially keep a wall of cadavers between the high-damage enemies and the tank so either you or the Wiz can blast it apart. Essentially, you need to switch from defense to high, brutal offense...

Also, become undead as quick as you can, by any means necessary. Standard Cleric cheese can also apply, of course. Divine Metamagic and such... If you don't take Divine Metamagic, Profane Lifeleech is a good use for all those Rebuke Attempts/Day... At 5th, you really don't have to worry about controlling undead through rebukes...

It should be noted that you don't loose access to those cure spells, so it would be good to keep a Wand of CLW and a few scrolls of CMW/SW on hand to spot heal...

[Scoot]

If your entire party is necropolitan (Libris Mortis, I think, LA +0), then your inflict spells can be used for both offense and healing.

And if for any reason you can't do that, and your entire party is willing to take a feat, Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis), you get the same effect.

[Bibliomancer]

For out of combat healing, a wand of lesser vigor is more than twice as efficient as a wand of CLW for gp per HP healed. However, lesser vigor is from the Spell Compendium and might be only a druid spell.

[faceroll]

Prep a few lesser vigor spells. At level 3 they'll heal 13 hp over 3 rounds. Use them for out of combat healing. Prep a few 0th level healing spells for stabilizing dying characters.

Alternatively, pick up the healing domain & use unearthed arcana's domain spontaneity variant, where you can cast spells from your domains spontaneously instead of cure/inflict spontaneously.

[Pluto]

Ur-Priest is a rather cheesy PrC to take into if you're not that attached to your deity...

He's talking levels 3-5. Ur-Priest is terrible compared to straight cleric until level 11-12.

It should be noted that you don't loose access to those cure spells, so it would be good to keep a Wand of CLW and a few scrolls of CMW/SW on hand to spot heal...

Definitely. Well, this principle, anyway.

Wands of Lesser Vigor (SpC) and Healing Belts (MIC) provide excellent healing for the whole party. I like to take Craft Wondrous Item, just so I can use my spell slots for something other than being the Fighter's heal-battery at low levels. An alternative is the Touch of Healing feat from CChampion, which lets you heal the party up to 1/2 HP at will.

But overall, Evil clerics and Good clerics play about the same: they have the same summons, save-or-sucks, buffs and weapons. The main difference is that you get to lead a couple skeletons around, which doesn't hurt at all.

[Volkov]

You can get an army of undead. Which in of itself is awesome.

[aivanther]

I like master of shrouds from Libris Mortis as a prestige class. You get extra rebukes, stacks with cleric for rebukes, and the ability to summon shadows, wraiths, spectres, and greater wraiths as a SLA. It also augments them with a special ability. Add to that some of the corpsecrafter feats and things get really fun with your minions.

[Master_Rahl22]

I just wanted to point out that Lesser Vigor is also in Complete Divine. I'd agree to keep some wands/scrolls on hand for healing so you don't need to worry about it with your spell slots. Even if you choose not to have an army of undead, you could specialize in debuffs and nasty status effects on the enemy. Profane Agony from Drow of the Underdark is nifty at low levels for spending your Rebuke attempts, as is Profane Lifeleech from Libris Mortis that was already mentioned.

[Curmudgeon]

I just wanted to point out that Lesser Vigor is also in Complete Divine.

So? It's obsolete there, for most groups. If you use Spell Compendium at all in your campaign, all its updated content has to be used instead of old stuff. That's WotC's rule to keep people from cherry-picking among revisions.

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade if they don't own Spell Compendium; it's just that -- even if the old and new versions are pretty much identical -- you're not supposed to reference old versions when things have been updated. Them's the rules from the Wizards of the Coast.

[Sinfire Titan]

So? It's obsolete there, for most groups. If you use Spell Compendium at all in your campaign, all its updated content has to be used instead of old stuff. That's WotC's rule to keep people from cherry-picking among revisions.

Not trying to rain on anybody's parade if they don't own Spell Compendium; it's just that -- even if the old and new versions are pretty much identical -- you're not supposed to reference old versions when things have been updated. Them's the rules from the Wizards of the Coast.

The Vigor line wasn't reprinted in the SC, IIRC. PH2 was the first time they reprinted it since CD.

[Optimystik]

Spell Compendium does indeed have vigor (lesser, regular and greater) as well as vigorous circle. I don't know if there are any others though.

[Pluto]

The Vigor line wasn't reprinted in the SC, IIRC. PH2 was the first time they reprinted it since CD.

p229.Ninjas!

[faceroll]

The Vigor line wasn't reprinted in the SC, IIRC. PH2 was the first time they reprinted it since CD.

They're definitely in the SpC, as I've been playing with them out of there since before I got a copy of CD and I've never had PHB2.

[Sinfire Titan]

p229.Ninjas!

I now know better.

[Biotroll]

So healing isn't really problem if party will be able to cooperate a bit. Good.

You mentioned army of undead. Is it wort to have really big numbers or concentrate on few big guys? Also I'm considering taking wizard with early tricks for Mystic Theurge, probably specialist on necromancy (suprising eh?). Is Enhanced Undead variant in Unearthed Arcana worth it? (I was also thinking about Skeletal Minion, but since it depedns on wizard levels, which I won't advance, it is no use for me I guess. Is there anything else nice I could exchange my familiar for?)

And thanks for suggestions and advices so far.

[Optimystik]

Both have their pros and cons. Armies tend to have bigger drawbacks, namely that you either have to do a ton of dicerolling (bogging down combat for everyone else) or you roll attacks and saves for swaths of your army or even the whole thing all at once, which can make combat very swingy. ("All 50 of your ghouls failed their reflex save, roll for damage.") They also take up a lot of space on the grid, which is good if it keeps things away from you but can be frustrating if you're hemming in your team.

Smaller amounts of powerful undead are generally less able to protect you (something dangerous can slip/aim past them to get to you) and are easier to shut down. (It's easier to trip - and keep tripping - a zombie ogre than 6 zombie hobgoblins.)

Having said that, I prefer fewer, more powerful undead to masses of fleshy cannon fodder. When you have minions, you want to keep it to a minion to keep from getting on people's nerves.

But I've got to admit, the Zombie Commoner Railgun is a great way to end a campaign

[2xMachina]

For mass amounts, I prefer to take averages.

They need 15 to save? 6/20 mooks saves.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I played a Lawful Evil cleric once, he had corpsecrafter to give the undead he animated a +4 enchantment to strength and +2HP per Hit Die.

So he brought forth party allies like a Skeletal Razor Boar, a zombie skull crusher ogre and a skeletal wartroll. The war troll actually had class levels before he died but that didn't do anything but insure he had higher strength and dexterity scores.

Casting yourself, (with the proper domain) or having an arcane ally use awaken undead is a good thing on animated minions as they won't be mindless any more and be better able to carry out complex commands.

He also went into the Contemplative PrC and picked up a couple new domains (in addition to his war and destruction).
Typically the magic he used was stuff like blade barrier to divine and conquer enemies or greater command[halt] to neutralize them while his undead minions did the party fighter did the heavy lifting.

[Irreverent Fool]

If you're planning on managing undead, take a look at this:

The Revised Necromancer's Handbook

Hordes of undead, while awesome, are generally useless for CR-appropriate encounters and bog down round-by-round combat.

obnoxious
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